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How to manufacture Tech 1 items with profit
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Aluka 7th
#61 - 2012-07-28 19:46:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Aluka 7th
Reaper gI wrote:
Ginger Barbarella wrote:

This right here is PRECISELY why those in industry need to KNOW THEIR MARKETS. Getting all associated skills to elitist levels (as a couple in this thread suggest) is really only necessary if you're building and selling competitively in hard markets like Rens or Jita. The simple fact is that a lot of still sells for better prices outside those major trade hubs. I'm still baffled why most people don't get it.

They may sell for better prices, but you need high volume as well.
Why sell 10 mods per day at a 1mil profit each in a lvl 4 agent station when I could sell 60 at 200k profit each in a hub and not need to do the extra hauling.

You can only sell in the smaller markets effectively with high trade skills (you need to place more orders+ be able to modify them at range) as you need to spread where your orders are as well as deal with the logistics of having your wares spread across more stations to cope with the lower volumes.

As a missioner I'd by single mods (e.g. I'd just lost a drone or two due to disconnect) in station if I needed it, but I'd buy ships+ full fittings at the hub, as the savings and guaranteed stock are a huge convenience.


Well if you are starting in manufacturing then you are probably not high volume manufacturer so better profit per item is found in smaller hubs like mission or factional warfare or even nrds regions like Providence.
When you increase volume and get skills higher for narrower margins, then you are ready for the big trade hubs.
Ofc this is rule of thumb but it depends on item.
Aluka 7th
#62 - 2012-08-13 06:05:35 UTC
bumper for new readers Lol
Atrum Skyhunter
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2012-08-15 05:26:23 UTC
I'd like to note that without Production Efficiency at lvl 4 it's impossible to make a profit on anything T1, or at least any of the 200+ items I've looked at. Even with PE at 4, you're still looking at around only ~%20 profit listing at current sell prices, so any impressive ISK/hour is going to require a massive amount of start up capital.
Adamina
Butter Sculptures
#64 - 2012-08-15 12:30:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Adamina
Not true at all. I've been helping a friend do Tech 1 Manufacturer for the past couple weeks and he only has it at 4 and he is making profit. You only look at 200 items? Keep looking.

Aluka has mentioned a few in this very thread that are indeed (still) profitable. You do not need it at 5, does it help? Of course, but telling a new player they absolutely need it at 5 to make any profit is absorb. I've been here from 2003 almost solely manufacturing/inventing/r&d so I know this like the back of my hand.
Aluka 7th
#65 - 2012-08-17 07:17:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Aluka 7th
Adamina wrote:
Not true at all. I've been helping a friend do Tech 1 Manufacturer for the past couple weeks and he only has it at 4 and he is making profit. You only look at 200 items? Keep looking.

Aluka has mentioned a few in this very thread that are indeed (still) profitable. You do not need it at 5, does it help? Of course, but telling a new player they absolutely need it at 5 to make any profit is absorb. I've been here from 2003 almost solely manufacturing/inventing/r&d so I know this like the back of my hand.


Finally someone that is actually manufacturing items with "normal margin" and can confirm that there are profitable items in T1 production even with lower prod. eff. Big smile
I'm still looking @ items in my production queue that have >100% margin with bought raw materials and I'm like WHHAATTT?.Cool
Bluestream3
the Goose Flock
#66 - 2012-08-17 14:05:21 UTC
Aluka 7th wrote:
Adamina wrote:
Not true at all. I've been helping a friend do Tech 1 Manufacturer for the past couple weeks and he only has it at 4 and he is making profit. You only look at 200 items? Keep looking.

Aluka has mentioned a few in this very thread that are indeed (still) profitable. You do not need it at 5, does it help? Of course, but telling a new player they absolutely need it at 5 to make any profit is absorb. I've been here from 2003 almost solely manufacturing/inventing/r&d so I know this like the back of my hand.


Finally someone that is actually manufacturing items with "normal margin" and can confirm that there are profitable items in T1 production even with lower prod. eff. Big smile
I'm still looking @ items in my production queue that have >100% margin with bought raw materials and I'm like WHHAATTT?.Cool

For the more serious manufacturers, it's not about the margin though. It's about profit per hour. I'm not saying that the items you're building aren't good. But the fact is that you can build ammo with a profit margin of 100% and make 500k ISK per day, and then you can build something else with a profit margin of 2% and make 10 million per day instead.
Aluka 7th
#67 - 2012-08-17 14:15:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Aluka 7th
Bluestream3 wrote:
Aluka 7th wrote:
Adamina wrote:
Not true at all. I've been helping a friend do Tech 1 Manufacturer for the past couple weeks and he only has it at 4 and he is making profit. You only look at 200 items? Keep looking.

Aluka has mentioned a few in this very thread that are indeed (still) profitable. You do not need it at 5, does it help? Of course, but telling a new player they absolutely need it at 5 to make any profit is absorb. I've been here from 2003 almost solely manufacturing/inventing/r&d so I know this like the back of my hand.


Finally someone that is actually manufacturing items with "normal margin" and can confirm that there are profitable items in T1 production even with lower prod. eff. Big smile
I'm still looking @ items in my production queue that have >100% margin with bought raw materials and I'm like WHHAATTT?.Cool

For the more serious manufacturers, it's not about the margin though. It's about profit per hour. I'm not saying that the items you're building aren't good. But the fact is that you can build ammo with a profit margin of 100% and make 500k ISK per day, and then you can build something else with a profit margin of 2% and make 10 million per day instead.


Blue, production efficiency directly affects size of the margin and that is why I have only mentioned that in my last post.
In original (first) post under "Very important detail" title, I go into details that profit per hour (or per day that I use) is more important than margin like you excellently pointed out.
That is why skills that speed up production and P.E. research of BPO are important almost the same as M.E research and production eff.. But everyone focuses only on prod. eff. skill for some reason :)

P.S. My aim is >5-10mil/day per production line (depending on additional logistic work).
Kaara Invokis
Dynamis
#68 - 2012-08-17 15:57:48 UTC
Aluka 7th wrote:
Blue, production efficiency directly affects size of the margin and that is why I have only mentioned that in my last post.
In original (first) post under "Very important detail" title, I go into details that profit per hour (or per day that I use) is more important than margin like you excellently pointed out.
That is why skills that speed up production and P.E. research of BPO are important almost the same as M.E research and production eff.. But everyone focuses only on prod. eff. skill for some reason :)

P.S. My aim is >5-10mil/day per production line (depending on additional logistic work).



Agreed immensely, PE is really undervalued. I usually manufacture in blocks of 24h, and 15 PE is the difference between say 9 or 10 drakes in that time block. If you're producing something with a high turnover rate, its defninitely worth taking the hit in tied up materials to make more money per line

OnTopic: I usually make around 15-25mil/day per production line (excluding trading profit) - the biggest issue is financing though. If you're able to put the money in and have the freightering ability, you can really make profit. Supplementing this with trading profit and you can make 40-50mil/day per line.
Bluestream3
the Goose Flock
#69 - 2012-08-17 16:26:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Bluestream3
Aluka 7th wrote:
Blue, production efficiency directly affects size of the margin and that is why I have only mentioned that in my last post.
In original (first) post under "Very important detail" title, I go into details that profit per hour (or per day that I use) is more important than margin like you excellently pointed out.
That is why skills that speed up production and P.E. research of BPO are important almost the same as M.E research and production eff.. But everyone focuses only on prod. eff. skill for some reason :)

P.S. My aim is >5-10mil/day per production line (depending on additional logistic work).

Oh, sorry. I didn't read the OP carefully enough.

I think 5-10 mil/day is alright as long as it's Jita (large volumes). With time you keep building a BPO collection and the more you have the more choices you have when deciding what to build, and that's good because that lets you catch more of the spikes. I remember back when I was selling rigs in Rens that there was a cycle with some rigs. They would spike up to about 100 mil/day, then would decay from there to being almost worthless to build. This is the best time to build them, because everyone else stops which makes them spike in value again as the demands aren't met, and the cycle starts over. Sometimes you could sell 3 days worth of production at about a 100 mil/day profit. This was a while ago though, I think it was the patch where they released tier 3 battlecruisers which increased demand for medium shield extenders suddenly. It has probably changed by now.
Roman Fuego
Brotherhood of Bankrupt Bastards
#70 - 2012-08-18 03:47:43 UTC
I get a bit of a laugh at all the posts talking about how unprofitable T1 in jita is. I've been doing quite well for months doing primarily T1 in jita. Relisters are constantly buying up items and helping everyone make a nice profit. They key is that you need a good method for figuring out what to make.
AnnaBelle Bartlet
AnnaBelle Farms
#71 - 2012-08-26 23:58:08 UTC
Thanks for posting this very informative guide. I'm currently mining/trading/missioning to build up some capital while acquiring suitable manufacturing skills and researching profitable opportunities.

The biggest problem I can see is lack of research/copy slots at NPC stations. I understand that there are a couple options - build a POS (too expensive for me), or join a manufacturing alliance. The second option seems reasonable to me, but I don't know what kind of questions to ask to find the right manufacturing alliance situation for me. Any suggestions?
Elias Way
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#72 - 2012-08-28 15:58:31 UTC
If you are just starting out, don't bother with BPOs. You can get a large variety of well researched BPC's via contracts, and the prices are pretty reasonable. That is what I have been doing. You can even get lucky and find a nicely researched BPO in contracts from time to time as well.
John Cant
NEXUS Holdings Inc.
#73 - 2012-08-29 11:01:37 UTC
I'm heading back into manufacturing again and having to recreate my bpo collection following a WH disaster many moons ago. The key to my profitability at the moment is "run as many production lines as possible". Maximise the output you can as to profit from T1 you need to be able to very quickly produce in bulk to take advantage of market fluctuations.

%profit per item is all very well, but if you can't fill the demand then You'll miss the opportunities. I just shifted from one production line for my 30% profitable item to ten concurrent lines. It's small enough to move in bulk so I can quickly run off enough to keep pace with the demand, plus also enableing me to buy up surplus (still at a profit though) and ship it between trade hubs.

Finally, it's amazing how few people are prepared to travel to pick up a bargain. As I was "deadheading" past a FW system en route to pick up resources I took a (large) cargo hold full of shuttles and sold all on the FW hub market at 5x market value. Everyone there needed shuttles to let them go and spare ships, so I provided them....

JC.
MushroomMushroom
State War Academy
Caldari State
#74 - 2012-08-29 14:13:06 UTC  |  Edited by: MushroomMushroom
This guide is really mistitled, its really a guide on how to merge trading, manufacturing, hauling, and market seeding into one venture without properly identifying profit centers.

If you want to get ahead, you need to understand and seperate your profit by category; your manufacturing profit is what you can make buying from a sell order, manufacturing, and selling to a buy order. All the rest is not actually manufacturing profit. If your making trade profit, it can often be more profitable to resell without manufacturing at all.

As for production efficiency 5, there are often products you can make at a manufacturing profit that do not require 5, but they are hard to find unless you have program doing it for you. The vast majority of products require 5 to make a respectable profit, and many require 5 + ME research. As an example, currently you can produce Cap 800 charges at a profit, buying minerals off sell orders in Jita, taking them to the nearest open factory slot, building the charges, and then selling the charges in Jita to a buy order, with production eff 4 it would turn a profit of 15mil/line/day till the current buy orders are cleared.
Lady Katherine Devonshire
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#75 - 2012-08-31 02:18:57 UTC
If you have contacts with low/nullsec player corps with POS manufacturing (i.e. people who make T2 items) then you can arrange to be their supplier of the T1 base items that they will both require in abundance and probably don't want to bother making for themselves.

This is especially true of rigs, as one look at the market reflects the narrow group of people who actually even bother with producing them. So there is a market for those who buy salvage and produce rigs, and an even larger market for those who can produce rigs specifically for others to upgrade in T2 variants. You both profit.

The sound of the Amarrian heart
Aluka 7th
#76 - 2012-09-06 15:46:02 UTC
For supply of raw materials or just resale, it's smart to join "Bulk trade" mailing list.
Ginger Barbarella
#77 - 2012-09-06 15:57:50 UTC
Atrum Skyhunter wrote:
I'd like to note that without Production Efficiency at lvl 4 it's impossible to make a profit on anything T1, or at least any of the 200+ items I've looked at. Even with PE at 4, you're still looking at around only ~%20 profit listing at current sell prices, so any impressive ISK/hour is going to require a massive amount of start up capital.


This is patently false (unless you, for some reason, insist on selling in Jita, Amarr, or Dodixie). It's quite easy to make profit on a wide range of T1 items in markets where you don't have to slash prices to sell. As I said before, KNOW YOUR MARKETS. If anyone has trouble honestly understanding this concept, there are plenty of threads out there on it. If you want the Easy Button answer, start a new thread about such, and you're bound to get VERY helpful pointers on exactly how to find, analyze, and market your stuff.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Aluka 7th
#78 - 2012-09-06 17:33:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Aluka 7th
Ok, let me take one of the items I have suggested in this tread - Large remote Hull repair system I.

Building cost (ME9 BPO) is:
less then 100k ISK with prod. eff. 5
less then 104k ISK with prod. eff. 4
Actually its less then 120k ISK with production eff 1.
Lowest sell in Jita is 184k, Dodixie is 285k, Hek (bigger then Rens l8ly) 440k and in Amarr 450k.


Now advocates of "You need production eff. at 5" to even start producing either want to discourage competition and younger players or are just too lazy to find stuff with good manufacture margin/profit. Hell just check 30+ things I've linked in this tread for God sake Shocked

P.S. There are less profitable items but oddly enough you don't have to produce those... just get into them when you skill up later to diversify more.
Suni Khan
#79 - 2012-09-06 17:35:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Suni Khan
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Atrum Skyhunter wrote:
I'd like to note that without Production Efficiency at lvl 4 it's impossible to make a profit on anything T1, or at least any of the 200+ items I've looked at. Even with PE at 4, you're still looking at around only ~%20 profit listing at current sell prices, so any impressive ISK/hour is going to require a massive amount of start up capital.


This is patently false (unless you, for some reason, insist on selling in Jita, Amarr, or Dodixie). It's quite easy to make profit on a wide range of T1 items in markets where you don't have to slash prices to sell. As I said before, KNOW YOUR MARKETS. If anyone has trouble honestly understanding this concept, there are plenty of threads out there on it. If you want the Easy Button answer, start a new thread about such, and you're bound to get VERY helpful pointers on exactly how to find, analyze, and market your stuff.


I know what you are trying to say. But if I can't sell merlins for example with a profit in jita. but I can in amarr. Why would I bother producing them to sell instead of taking the short route and just buy them in jita and sell them in amarr.

Obviously it aint bad to expand were to sell. and if you can make profit on something in jita. but the profit is a lot higher somewere else. you cn obviously ship some goods out there and sell it there. but thats trading profit and not manufacturing profit.

also there are plenty of T1 items that have a profit margin at PE 3 or even lower escpecially if the BP you are using in researched to some degree.

I redownloaded EIH a week ago and forgot to put in my API. so everything was calculated as if I have 0 skill in anything. and even then it showed some slow moving items that have a profit on them. and MANY MANY were making only 2-5% loss. PE 3 or a researched BP would have fixed that
Lambert Simnel
PWLS Enterprises
#80 - 2012-09-07 05:55:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Lambert Simnel
MushroomMushroom wrote:
If you want to get ahead, you need to understand and seperate your profit by category; your manufacturing profit is what you can make buying from a sell order, manufacturing, and selling to a buy order. All the rest is not actually manufacturing profit. If your making trade profit, it can often be more profitable to resell without manufacturing at all


But why would you do this?


  • You should be buying minerals from your own buy order placed below sell price (or even better direct from a mining corporation at below 'buy' price).

  • Manufacturing with the least cost possible (the ideal is PE5, a well researched blueprint and a POS, but as others have pointed out this isn't essential - it just maximises your profit)

  • Then sell to a sell order (not a buy order) in a location that gives you a profit but also has consistently high volumes.

There are lots and lots of T1 items that are profitable you just need to do your homework.