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Barge Fairy Tale

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1641 - 2012-07-28 09:00:39 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:



First of all CCP posted a Tiericide devblog and the philosophy behind making all hulls worth flying by giving them different flavours.
One of those flavours is "tanky boat". Guess what, we are going to get such a tanky boat, with the drawback of mining worse than the best but still enough (this is debatable) not to make it relegated to abandoned hull any longer.

Deal with it.





Nobody is against the skiff and procurer getting this job and being good at it. Hence why we dont want the other barges to take that roll away from it.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1642 - 2012-07-28 09:08:12 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Nobody is against the skiff and procurer getting this job and being good at it. Hence why we dont want the other barges to take that roll away from it.


After the patch Hulk with two MLU's will have ~9500 EHP. You can't gank that?
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1643 - 2012-07-28 09:08:57 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Did you bother reading my Post? Let me bold some things for you. The Skiff's tank is great. I love that Miners can choose to fly a ship with enough tank that nobody's going to bother them. The problem is that the Mack takes that cool role away from the Skiff by fitting enough tank to do exactly the same thing with a much larger cargo bay and the exact same (actually, a little better yield). (I'm ignoring, for now, the fact that they already had a ship that can tank enough, but now the Mackinaw has a role).

Again. The Mackinaw's large enough tank removes any value that the Skiff's even larger tank has for miners, so as it stands now, the Skiff has no role whatsoever. You get it? I want all 3 Exhumers to have a role. With the current stats, only 2 of them do.


You can't have an AFK friendly ship that melts like a "new role fleet only" Hulk.
I don't know what they can do to give an unique identiy to Skiff but it's certainly not by making the other ship a large floating soap bubble.


Pipa Porto wrote:

This is EVE. We do have the right to kill anyone we want. If we didn't, F1 wouldn't work in HS. Roll


You have that VERY identical right whether the target is a freighter, a frigate, a Tengu or a mining ship.

For some illogical reason, for years, ganking empty freigthers, frigates and Tengus was dumb but ganking an empty mining ship (the cheapest and least challenging task none the less) brought welfare wealth.

The lead designer wants to put a stop to welfare wealth happening when blowing this kind of ship and put it in line with the others. How sad, eh?


Pipa Porto wrote:

In EVE, you "spawn" at a Station. That station has Sentry guns. In HS, you have CONCORD. That kills anyone who ganks. What more do you want? Players are responsible for their own safety.


Players in a MMO are statistically measured. If "natural Darwin law in action" nets an average of 14 dead ships per day for 9 months in one system (the one I know like my pockets) and from a certain date that average turns to 70+, then it's obvious a developer will look into it, exactly like they looked at why an handful of individuals were making zillions by manipulating FW LP or exactly like they do when they notice a character is handing suspicious trillions out left and right.

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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#1644 - 2012-07-28 09:10:41 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
First of all CCP posted a Tiericide devblog and the philosophy behind making all hulls worth flying by giving them different flavours.


Then they went and mixed in a large dose of "tanky" with the high cargo variant. The Mack should have a far lower EHP but much higher shield regen. That way it can sit unattended in a hisec belt for a while without blowing up due to three frigates shooting it, but it won't be so tough against the blaster catalyst trio.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
In WoW and other games the designers are not idiots, when they see spawn camping and mass farming they implement spawn defenses, barriers, cannons etc.

We got something similar to mass spawn camping in EvE and guess what, CCP are implementing defenses and so on.


Yet rogues continue to stun lock.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1645 - 2012-07-28 09:10:56 UTC
Pipa Porto wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Pipa Porto wrote:


The Mack is the official "not supported by a Hauler ship." Why should CCP design a ship specifically to cater to AFK people?


Because there's demand for it?

Why shoud Dodge build pickups? Or why Harley Davidson builds noisy chromed motorbikes?


There's demand for a HS Dread. It comes up in the EffandEye forums all the time. CCP's not making those at the moment.

Why should CCP design a ship specifically to cater to AFK people? Game design reason, please.


Because a large portion of playerbase wants it? Is "cash income" a game design reason enough?

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Dave stark
#1646 - 2012-07-28 09:13:04 UTC
very few people will be using a skiff long term in high sec, i'd put isk on it.

when the mack and hulk become unprofitable to gank, nobody will bother ganking them with enough frequency that warrants skiff level of ehp. for short mining sessions the mackinaw will be the king of yield tank and cargo like the hulk is now.

most people in high sec are not mining all day; and if they are they aren't sitting at the computer for 100% of that time

so i'm going to throw out a prediction that the hulk and mack will swap places as the high sec mining ship of choice, the skiff will still be non-existent in high sec, and the situation won't change much except ganking won't be as prevalent because gankers isk is more valuable to them than miner's tears.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1647 - 2012-07-28 09:13:55 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Nobody is against the skiff and procurer getting this job and being good at it. Hence why we dont want the other barges to take that roll away from it.


After the patch Hulk with two MLU's will have ~9500 EHP. You can't gank that?


Yep I can and for a profit but only if they dont fit a tank. The skiff will be a challange and I will most likely be mining in that from now and perhaps doing pvp in one tooTwisted
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1648 - 2012-07-28 09:14:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Mara Rinn wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
First of all CCP posted a Tiericide devblog and the philosophy behind making all hulls worth flying by giving them different flavours.


Then they went and mixed in a large dose of "tanky" with the high cargo variant. The Mack should have a far lower EHP but much higher shield regen. That way it can sit unattended in a hisec belt for a while without blowing up due to three frigates shooting it, but it won't be so tough against the blaster catalyst trio.


If they make Mack a sheet ship (again), then everybody will just use the Skiff + 1 hauler or an Orca. You know, like they did for the last several years already.


Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
In WoW and other games the designers are not idiots, when they see spawn camping and mass farming they implement spawn defenses, barriers, cannons etc.

We got something similar to mass spawn camping in EvE and guess what, CCP are implementing defenses and so on.


Mara Rinn wrote:

Yet rogues continue to stun lock.


... and take their time. Or they spec for super huge burst and kill without stun lock. So?

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Dave stark
#1649 - 2012-07-28 09:14:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Mara Rinn wrote:


Yet rogues continue to stun lock.


that hasn't happened since the hp buffs at the start of tbc nearly half a decade ago.

you simply don't have enough combined stuns and dps to 100 -> 0 some one with the larger hp pools.
then came resilience etc...
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1650 - 2012-07-28 09:16:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
baltec1 wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Nobody is against the skiff and procurer getting this job and being good at it. Hence why we dont want the other barges to take that roll away from it.


After the patch Hulk with two MLU's will have ~9500 EHP. You can't gank that?


Yep I can and for a profit but only if they dont fit a tank.


... profit which you shouldn't have.

It's not just because the lead game designer said so, but because you don't get that huge "for a profit" value if you gank most other empty / untanked ships.

Where's the skill into randomly killing stationary ships with no cargo?
All the other suicide gankers have at least to scan, find poor tank vs rich cargo (and calculate that cargo value FAST) and then do the kill.

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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1651 - 2012-07-28 09:16:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
baltec1 wrote:
Yep I can and for a profit but only if they dont fit a tank. The skiff will be a challange and I will most likely be mining in that from now and perhaps doing pvp in one tooTwisted


Why are you, Pipa and other gankers whining about this?

Yes, that EHP is without any tank and fleet bonuses.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1652 - 2012-07-28 09:18:02 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:


Yet rogues continue to stun lock.


that hasn't happened since the hp buffs at the start of tbc nearly half a decade ago.

you simply don't have enough combined stuns and dps to 100 -> 0 some one with the larger hp pools.
then came resilience etc...


Yes I have VERY vague reminescences about "prep rogues" but that was 2005.
Last time I played (Burning Crusade) that spec was basically only good vs outdoor materials harvesting alts who did not enter a battleground once (battlegrounds gave welfare gear with defensive stats called resilience or something).

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Dave stark
#1653 - 2012-07-28 09:18:18 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Nobody is against the skiff and procurer getting this job and being good at it. Hence why we dont want the other barges to take that roll away from it.


After the patch Hulk with two MLU's will have ~9500 EHP. You can't gank that?


Yep I can and for a profit but only if they dont fit a tank. The skiff will be a challange and I will most likely be mining in that from now and perhaps doing pvp in one tooTwisted


a fully tanked hulk still out mines a max yield skiff, and a fully tanked hulk shouldn't die to suicide gankers unless they're packing more pewpew than they are now.
Pipa Porto
#1654 - 2012-07-28 09:18:42 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Yep I can and for a profit but only if they dont fit a tank. The skiff will be a challange and I will most likely be mining in that from now and perhaps doing pvp in one tooTwisted


Why are you, Pipa and other gankers whining about this?

Yes, that EHP is without any tank and fleet bonuses.


We're not. The Hulk changes are now fine. We've been talking about the Mackinaw and Skiff for the last while.

EvE: Everyone vs Everyone

-RubyPorto
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1655 - 2012-07-28 09:19:47 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Nobody is against the skiff and procurer getting this job and being good at it. Hence why we dont want the other barges to take that roll away from it.


After the patch Hulk with two MLU's will have ~9500 EHP. You can't gank that?


Yep I can and for a profit but only if they dont fit a tank.


... profit which you shouldn't have.

It's not just because the lead game designer said so, but because you don't get that huge "for a profit" value if you gank most other empty / untanked ships.



You do if they fill all their slots with t2 mods.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1656 - 2012-07-28 09:19:53 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:


Yet rogues continue to stun lock.


that hasn't happened since the hp buffs at the start of tbc nearly half a decade ago.

you simply don't have enough combined stuns and dps to 100 -> 0 some one with the larger hp pools.
then came resilience etc...


This is now a "Talk about [Insert random easy-mode MMO here]" thread.

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Dave stark
#1657 - 2012-07-28 09:20:28 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:


Yet rogues continue to stun lock.


that hasn't happened since the hp buffs at the start of tbc nearly half a decade ago.

you simply don't have enough combined stuns and dps to 100 -> 0 some one with the larger hp pools.
then came resilience etc...


Yes I have VERY vague reminescences about "prep rogues" but that was 2005.
Last time I played (Burning Crusade) that spec was basically only good vs outdoor materials harvesting alts who did not enter a battleground once (battlegrounds gave welfare gear with defensive stats called resilience or something).


you didn't even need prep itself, you just needed the spec.

i remember grinding for my gm swords when honour points were first introduced. i graveyard camped a poor shaman in wsg, i took him from 100 -> 0 every time he spawned. i felt bad for him.

yep once resilience came in and your chance to get a crit streak dropped to about 0% then you simply didn't have the dps to take some one down during stuns and they'd turn the tables on you pretty quickly.
Dave stark
#1658 - 2012-07-28 09:22:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:


Yet rogues continue to stun lock.


that hasn't happened since the hp buffs at the start of tbc nearly half a decade ago.

you simply don't have enough combined stuns and dps to 100 -> 0 some one with the larger hp pools.
then came resilience etc...


This is now a "Talk about [Insert random easy-mode MMO here]" thread.


the thread's 80 pages long, we all know as the number of posts in a thread increases it's relevance to the op tends to 0. it also invokes ingram's law and inevitably soon we'll be talking about the 1940s.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1659 - 2012-07-28 09:25:07 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Nobody is against the skiff and procurer getting this job and being good at it. Hence why we dont want the other barges to take that roll away from it.


After the patch Hulk with two MLU's will have ~9500 EHP. You can't gank that?


Yep I can and for a profit but only if they dont fit a tank.


... profit which you shouldn't have.

It's not just because the lead game designer said so, but because you don't get that huge "for a profit" value if you gank most other empty / untanked ships.



You do if they fill all their slots with t2 mods.


As of today you profit even if they park a bare hull. In fact most crap tank ships have T1 mids and many (due to low SP) have T1 mining lasers.

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1660 - 2012-07-28 09:25:31 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Nobody is against the skiff and procurer getting this job and being good at it. Hence why we dont want the other barges to take that roll away from it.


After the patch Hulk with two MLU's will have ~9500 EHP. You can't gank that?


Yep I can and for a profit but only if they dont fit a tank. The skiff will be a challange and I will most likely be mining in that from now and perhaps doing pvp in one tooTwisted


a fully tanked hulk still out mines a max yield skiff, and a fully tanked hulk shouldn't die to suicide gankers unless they're packing more pewpew than they are now.


I did say the hulk with no tank. You can kill a tanked hulk for a loss but the skiff is another story which is as it should be. I still have some concerns over the survivability of the procurer and retriver.