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Customer Support lifting previous restrictions regarding war decs

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Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#21 - 2011-10-10 23:43:34 UTC
so are they making it easier or harder on little noobcorps?

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Buruk Utama
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#22 - 2011-10-11 00:28:10 UTC
GM Karidor wrote:
In the past, there have been some policies in place within Customer Support that imposed additional rules onto the war mechanics available in game, such as the so called "Alliance Hopping" or the more recent "Dec Shield".

The decision has been made to lift those restrictions that affect war declarations, thereby opening up ways for corporations to avoid unwanted wars via methods that were previously considered exploits of game mechanics.

In other words:
If you can leave or declare a war, raise the costs for other entities to declare one to you or do any other war related things within current normal game mechanics, you may do so without having to keep other rules in mind.



Anyone else find it funny that the blog he links to states that the issue will "soon be fixed" yet the blog is dated: 2008.01.10. It has been almost 4 years since that "soon" promise ShockedLol
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#23 - 2011-10-11 00:50:03 UTC
Buruk Utama wrote:
GM Karidor wrote:
In the past, there have been some policies in place within Customer Support that imposed additional rules onto the war mechanics available in game, such as the so called "Alliance Hopping" or the more recent "Dec Shield".

The decision has been made to lift those restrictions that affect war declarations, thereby opening up ways for corporations to avoid unwanted wars via methods that were previously considered exploits of game mechanics.

In other words:
If you can leave or declare a war, raise the costs for other entities to declare one to you or do any other war related things within current normal game mechanics, you may do so without having to keep other rules in mind.



Anyone else find it funny that the blog he links to states that the issue will "soon be fixed" yet the blog is dated: 2008.01.10. It has been almost 4 years since that "soon" promise ShockedLol


Well it takes a while to get to fixing things here lol

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2011-10-11 04:07:10 UTC
Quote:
Alliance Hopping to Avoid Wars is not Allowed
reported by CCP Wrangler | 2008.01.10 16:32:33

Presently, there is a loophole that some corporations are using to avoid wars that have been declared on them. As soon as a war has been declared on the corporation, they join an alliance and, once admitted, they immediately leave the alliance again. The result is that they are only involved in an active war for 24 hours and not a week as should be the case according to normal war game-play mechanics. Bogus alliances have even been created for the sole purpose of giving corps a way out of wars.

This is an unintended game mechanic and it will be fixed as soon as possible. Until then we are putting a stop to this situation and anyone found abusing this loophole will receive a warning for their trouble. Repeated offenses of this nature may also result in a ban.

Whoa. So this is allowed now?

So a corp like EVE University could hop back and forth between several alliances, such as Ivy League, Ivy League., and Ivy Leeg to limit their time under wardec to 24 hours?

Interesting.

I can see lifting the restrictions on alt corp dec shields (that costs a corp/alliance ISK to implement), but alliance hopping is a freebie.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#25 - 2011-10-11 05:14:54 UTC
Just so everyone knows, here is how the original E-Uni dec shield worked:

Form say 20 corps. Have 19 war dec the 20th. Cost is a little less than 400 million a week. Then have the 20th corp join your alliance. This does not increase the cost of the 19 wars. They are still 2 million for the first, 4 million for the second, and so on. BUT...

If now a new corp decides to war dec your alliance, they will be the 20th war and must pay 1 billion a week.

There is some trick about toggling the wars mutual, then not mutual that causes the cost of a existing war dec to get reset to the higher value, but Im not sure of the details.

A somewhat cheaper way, but logistically harder, is to make 40 corps. Then have corp #1 dec #2, #3 dec #4, and so on. Then have all the even number corps join the alliance. Now you pay 40 million a week for your dec shield.

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Kelduum Revaan
The Ebon Hawk
#26 - 2011-10-11 09:30:41 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Cost is a little less than 400 million a week. Then have the 20th corp join your alliance. This does not increase the cost of the 19 wars.


This was a bug, and actually fixed some time ago when the new billing system went in which added automatic payments - as it was, once initially generated a war bill never updated its costs.

A total of 19 wars (from your example) would now cost just over 18 billion ISK to maintain per week, so not really an option that way.
Karim alRashid
Starboard.
#27 - 2011-10-11 11:23:04 UTC
Kelduum Revaan wrote:

A total of 19 wars (from your example) would now cost just over 18 billion ISK to maintain per week, so not really an option that way.


You're supposed to ~teach~ noobs, aren't you?

Source form here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/War_Declaration

First war costs 2M
Second costs 2M = 2 * (1 + 1)
Third costs 6M = 2 * (2 + 1)
...
Nth costs 2 * N

Summed wars from 1 to N cost 2 * (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 ... + N) = 2 * N * (N + 1) / 2

Which for N == 19 gives 2 * 19 * 20 / 2 == 380M

At this point the shielded corp joins the alliance. The first legit wardec against that alliance costs
50 * 20 = 1 billion and lasts 24 hrs, because the corp jumps to a new alliance.

So a corp pays 380M (via 19 alt corps) and causes 1 week war against it to cost 7 billion.

Good job, CCP !!!

Pain is weakness leaving the body http://www.youtube.com/user/AlRashidKarim/videos
N1gella Laws0n
Doomheim
#28 - 2011-10-11 11:28:47 UTC
Apparently Hello Kitty Online is actually >this< way.

When the only thing left is joining corps to gank them, maybe you'll screw your heads back on.
Spectre80
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#29 - 2011-10-11 11:58:36 UTC
now if i understand this correctly i predict griefer tears. P
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
#30 - 2011-10-11 12:58:09 UTC
GM Karidor wrote:
In the past, there have been some policies in place within Customer Support that imposed additional rules onto the war mechanics available in game, such as the so called "Alliance Hopping" or the more recent "Dec Shield".

The decision has been made to lift those restrictions that affect war declarations, thereby opening up ways for corporations to avoid unwanted wars via methods that were previously considered exploits of game mechanics.

In other words:
If you can leave or declare a war, raise the costs for other entities to declare one to you or do any other war related things within current normal game mechanics, you may do so without having to keep other rules in mind.


This is an awful decision and should not have been done untill war dec mechanics have been fixed.

Negitive 1 internets for you sir when the dislike button comes out. >_>
Jada Maroo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2011-10-11 13:02:43 UTC
This is a good change. If you rely on war deccing carebear nooblet corps to pad your killboard, you suck at Eve.
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
#32 - 2011-10-11 13:08:53 UTC
Jada Maroo wrote:
This is a good change. If you rely on war deccing carebear nooblet corps to pad your killboard, you suck at Eve.


its not the carebear /nooblet corps that is the ones doing it, its the pecker heads who decide to **** one off and keep hopping around in 1/2 man corps to avoid any reprecussions for there actions.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#33 - 2011-10-11 13:20:17 UTC
Kelduum Revaan wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
Cost is a little less than 400 million a week. Then have the 20th corp join your alliance. This does not increase the cost of the 19 wars.


This was a bug, and actually fixed some time ago when the new billing system went in which added automatic payments - as it was, once initially generated a war bill never updated its costs.

A total of 19 wars (from your example) would now cost just over 18 billion ISK to maintain per week, so not really an option that way.


Just so Im sure I understand: Are you saying that a corp that has been war decced can increase the cost of that war from 2 million to 50 million by joining an alliance? What if that alliance already has a war, does the cost of this new one go up to 100 million?

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Jada Maroo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2011-10-11 13:51:38 UTC
ITTigerClawIK wrote:
Jada Maroo wrote:
This is a good change. If you rely on war deccing carebear nooblet corps to pad your killboard, you suck at Eve.


its not the carebear /nooblet corps that is the ones doing it, its the pecker heads who decide to **** one off and keep hopping around in 1/2 man corps to avoid any reprecussions for there actions.


Okay, admittedly that's a problem. But I don't see how that's ever going to be solveable.
Alex Tremayne
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
#35 - 2011-10-11 14:19:14 UTC
This is an abomination.

Basically this means that war-decs are consensual PvP only, because anyone with any competence at all will be able to avoid any war-dec they don't like the look of.

There are no words for how terrible a decision this is.
Doddy
Excidium.
#36 - 2011-10-11 14:38:56 UTC
Alex Tremayne wrote:
This is an abomination.

Basically this means that war-decs are consensual PvP only, because anyone with any competence at all will be able to avoid any war-dec they don't like the look of.

There are no words for how terrible a decision this is.


Pretty much what he said, basically the only people who will get war deced are little noob corps wh don't know how to shield themselves or can't afford to, good job.
pmota
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#37 - 2011-10-11 15:16:58 UTC
If you are war dec'd and you don't feel ok being in a war dec'd alliance, why would moving to another corp/alliance be considered a exploit in the first place... ?
I applaud CCP for finaly allowing the obvious. For those wannabee pseudo-pvp'ers who are crying about this change, come to 0.0 if you want to fight. Fighting is not ganking a hauler...
Alex Tremayne
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
#38 - 2011-10-11 15:37:32 UTC
pmota wrote:
If you are war dec'd and you don't feel ok being in a war dec'd alliance, why would moving to another corp/alliance be considered a exploit in the first place... ?
I applaud CCP for finaly allowing the obvious. For those wannabee pseudo-pvp'ers who are crying about this change, come to 0.0 if you want to fight. Fighting is not ganking a hauler...



Oh good grief, not everything in EVE is about 0.0 and not everyone uses the war-dec mechanic for cheap indy kills.

Also: as a member of a 0.0 PvP alliance, are you *really* advocating that PvP be *consensual* even if it is in empire space?
Kelduum Revaan
The Ebon Hawk
#39 - 2011-10-11 16:30:16 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Just so Im sure I understand: Are you saying that a corp that has been war decced can increase the cost of that war from 2 million to 50 million by joining an alliance? What if that alliance already has a war, does the cost of this new one go up to 100 million?


Yes, and yes - it may cost 2M for the initial war, but joining an alliance transfers the war to the alliance, and the next bill generated will take this into account, including any other wars declared on the alliance.

War Bill = ( 2 if both parties are corporations OR 50 otherwise) * ( highest ( number of non-mutual wars declared on defenderOR number of non-mutual wars declared by attacker) + 1 ) Million ISK/Week
Shei Hullud
Kosher Nostra
WarDogs League
#40 - 2011-10-11 16:38:06 UTC
So to make things clear, highsec will become even safer now, which in turn will make carebears/fat industry corps/macro miners/multiboxers do anything they like, like, like swarming ice fields and finishing it in a day's break, getting gajillions of isk and making tier 1 battleships cost 10mil...
Well good job on ruining the system completely.

Then i predict that highsec will become so safe, that pvp will be restricted and the only pvp you'll get is in low sec which is now a blob generator, and 0.0... which is not pvp... there is no pvp in 0.0, there's just something going on there, and no one sure what, but russkie botter alliances can tell you much more.

Making macro mission running/mining seems legit now, and why not? if my bots being wardecced i can drop/join fake alliance whatever.

I dont see how that benefits eve, im sorry, but i just cant see that