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Ancillary Shield Booster use should be nerfed

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The Bazzalisk
One Risky Click
Snuffed Out
#1 - 2012-07-22 15:54:10 UTC
2 ASBs per ship thankfully got banned before the tournament because use of that would have been catastrophic. 1 ASB use needs nerfing in some way also, however, perhaps reducing the number that can be fielded per match, or changing the module slightly - reducing the capacity so it has less cycles but also reducing the reload time? The prevalence of it in the tournament is getting a bit silly and in my opinion a bit overpowered, and it also makes the matches get kind of boring to watch.

Watching an armor vs shield match where the shield team gets logistics as well as nearly a minute of huge boosting on each ship, with bonuses on the cyclone, sleipnir and vargur means it's going to be a whitewash every time in favour of the shield team, simply because you can't pump out enough dps to beat both reps from a logi as well as the ASB before one of your major dps ships dies.

Pretty much every armor vs shield match goes like this:

Shield ship gets low-ish shield -> reps up with ASB and starts reloading -> logis hold it up until it is reloaded -> armor dps ship is already dead -> match is already over. ASBs cause matches to be over in 3 minutes when a majority of the losing team's ships are alive simply because of the huge amount of dps it can tank and how there is no dps left on the field to stay alive long enough to make it use the charges, then overcome the logi too.

TL;DR ASBs give too much tank and use should be nerfed because watching a shield team roflstomp an armor team every match is a tad boring simply because there is not enough dps left to deal with an ASB
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2012-07-22 16:02:19 UTC
The Bazzalisk wrote:
2 ASBs per ship thankfully got banned before the tournament because use of that would have been catastrophic. 1 ASB use needs nerfing in some way also, however, perhaps reducing the number that can be fielded per match, or changing the module slightly - reducing the capacity so it has less cycles but also reducing the reload time? The prevalence of it in the tournament is getting a bit silly and in my opinion a bit overpowered, and it also makes the matches get kind of boring to watch.

Watching an armor vs shield match where the shield team gets logistics as well as nearly a minute of huge boosting on each ship, with bonuses on the cyclone, sleipnir and vargur means it's going to be a whitewash every time in favour of the shield team, simply because you can't pump out enough dps to beat both reps from a logi as well as the ASB before one of your major dps ships dies.

Pretty much every armor vs shield match goes like this:

Shield ship gets low-ish shield -> reps up with ASB and starts reloading -> logis hold it up until it is reloaded -> armor dps ship is already dead -> match is already over. ASBs cause matches to be over in 3 minutes when a majority of the losing team's ships are alive simply because of the huge amount of dps it can tank and how there is no dps left on the field to stay alive long enough to make it use the charges, then overcome the logi too.

TL;DR ASBs give too much tank and use should be nerfed because watching a shield team roflstomp an armor team every match is a tad boring simply because there is not enough dps left to deal with an ASB



Just throwing it out there how wrong you are and how little you understand the module and its work arounds.

Is it common, yes, is it broken, not really, if you know what you're doing its easily beatable (and has been beaten plenty of times).

It adds the ability to run a pure gank fleet without logistics, and basically adds variety that has been missing in years past.




Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
CCP Soundwave
C C P
C C P Alliance
#3 - 2012-07-22 16:05:44 UTC
It offers a load of flexibility which I think makes it pretty damn awesome in terms of getting different setups.
Faife
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#4 - 2012-07-22 16:08:03 UTC
The Bazzalisk wrote:
TL;DR ASBs give too much tank and use should be nerfed because watching a shield team roflstomp an armor team every match is a tad boring simply because there is not enough dps left to deal with an ASB



Lol
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#5 - 2012-07-22 16:08:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Teinyhr
I think AT would benefit a lot more from banning/nerfing ECM than ASB.

*hides from the rotten tomatoes*

Edit2:
Granted ECM hasn't made as bothersomely boring matches this year than it used to in some previous tournaments.
The Bazzalisk
One Risky Click
Snuffed Out
#6 - 2012-07-22 16:09:03 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

Just throwing it out there how wrong you are and how little you understand the module and its work arounds.

Is it common, yes, is it broken, not really, if you know what you're doing its easily beatable (and has been beaten plenty of times).

It adds the ability to run a pure gank fleet without logistics, and basically adds variety that has been missing in years past.

When you have 3 vargurs and a scimitar, all with ASBs, all requiring nearly a minute of shooting to get past their ASBs and then needing to beat their logi and kill them in the next minute - and you have to do that for each Vargur in turn without your dps ships dying, it's a bit silly. Clearly you're PL so you're going to defend your tactics and I'm not attacking PL for it in particular - I've seen this ASB tactic used all tournament and I just think actually, Soundwave, it reduces variety in the tournament - there is no reason to not fit a shield booster which gives huge boosts and isn't affected at all by neuts which could previously counter shield tank setups.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-07-22 16:09:51 UTC
It isn't so much nerf, but what is needed is instead of booster giving free boost. it should just reduce the cap needed per cycle.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Ginseng Jita
PAN-EVE TRADING COMPANY
#8 - 2012-07-22 16:10:27 UTC
ASB's was one of the best things added to the game. It gives another option to teams on what ships they should field and how they should fit them.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2012-07-22 16:14:43 UTC
The Bazzalisk wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

Just throwing it out there how wrong you are and how little you understand the module and its work arounds.

Is it common, yes, is it broken, not really, if you know what you're doing its easily beatable (and has been beaten plenty of times).

It adds the ability to run a pure gank fleet without logistics, and basically adds variety that has been missing in years past.

When you have 3 vargurs and a scimitar, all with ASBs, all requiring nearly a minute of shooting to get past their ASBs and then needing to beat their logi and kill them in the next minute - and you have to do that for each Vargur in turn without your dps ships dying, it's a bit silly. Clearly you're PL so you're going to defend your tactics and I'm not attacking PL for it in particular - I've seen this ASB tactic used all tournament and I just think actually, Soundwave, it reduces variety in the tournament - there is no reason to not fit a shield booster which gives huge boosts and isn't affected at all by neuts which could previously counter shield tank setups.



So you've seen plenty of logis die with ASB's in this tourney, obviously thats the clue to the weak link in the ASB suit of armor (we call it a 2stage tank).

The rest of beating it basically requires you to coax out a reload while staying alive, once you do that you pounce on the ship in question and rip it apart.

The ASB is just a new mod, you've seen armor set ups beat it, but of course its popular when so many people carry your attitude and just dont understand how easy it can be to get somebody to reload their ASB, and once they do that, it accelerates the match in a particular direction, which eventually ends up having a domino effect.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#10 - 2012-07-22 16:16:32 UTC
I like the dynamic it brings to the game.

Now perhaps some tweaking to the new adaptive armor resistance module needs to be done to make it comparable in effectiveness yet completely different in how it affects combat tactics.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2012-07-22 16:16:35 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
It isn't so much nerf, but what is needed is instead of booster giving free boost. it should just reduce the cap needed per cycle.



Then what would be the point in loading it with boosters?? Most boosters give more cap than the booster uses, why would you ever bother fitting one if thats all it did considering the draw backs of what happens when its OUT of charges (massive draw on your own cap or 1 minute of not reloading)

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2012-07-22 16:16:37 UTC
The ASB is one of the biggest balance blunders CCP has done in my opinion.
notarealgirl
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-07-22 16:18:03 UTC
The Bazzalisk wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

Just throwing it out there how wrong you are and how little you understand the module and its work arounds.

Is it common, yes, is it broken, not really, if you know what you're doing its easily beatable (and has been beaten plenty of times).

It adds the ability to run a pure gank fleet without logistics, and basically adds variety that has been missing in years past.

When you have 3 vargurs and a scimitar, all with ASBs, all requiring nearly a minute of shooting to get past their ASBs and then needing to beat their logi and kill them in the next minute - and you have to do that for each Vargur in turn without your dps ships dying, it's a bit silly. Clearly you're PL so you're going to defend your tactics and I'm not attacking PL for it in particular - I've seen this ASB tactic used all tournament and I just think actually, Soundwave, it reduces variety in the tournament - there is no reason to not fit a shield booster which gives huge boosts and isn't affected at all by neuts which could previously counter shield tank setups.


Sounds like someone is butthurt about losing to an ASB equipped team (ie: a team that had a clue).
The Bazzalisk
One Risky Click
Snuffed Out
#14 - 2012-07-22 16:18:04 UTC
Ginseng Jita wrote:
ASB's was one of the best things added to the game. It gives another option to teams on what ships they should field and how they should fit them.
I would reword that as 'removing options' - I might be willing to bet that ASB Cyclone/Sleipnir/Vargur are the most common ships this tournament. There is no reason to use another option because the ASB tank combined with a logi to fill your reload time makes the tank so strong that there is not a lot that can deal with it without your dps ship dying before the enemy ASB ship is dead.

Also, that setup we saw a few days ago with 10 T1 battlecruisers - cyclones, feroxes and....brutixes (I think? Can't remember. Doesn't matter.) The 4 cyclones and 4 feroxes with ASBs would take so long to kill with almost a minute straight of ASB boosting on each ship that even if the ASB ships were doing no dps they would still all survive because you have to spend a whole minute wearing down the ASB charges and then even more time actually killing them. The match would be over before they died.
The Bazzalisk
One Risky Click
Snuffed Out
#15 - 2012-07-22 16:19:26 UTC
notarealgirl wrote:
The Bazzalisk wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

Just throwing it out there how wrong you are and how little you understand the module and its work arounds.

Is it common, yes, is it broken, not really, if you know what you're doing its easily beatable (and has been beaten plenty of times).

It adds the ability to run a pure gank fleet without logistics, and basically adds variety that has been missing in years past.

When you have 3 vargurs and a scimitar, all with ASBs, all requiring nearly a minute of shooting to get past their ASBs and then needing to beat their logi and kill them in the next minute - and you have to do that for each Vargur in turn without your dps ships dying, it's a bit silly. Clearly you're PL so you're going to defend your tactics and I'm not attacking PL for it in particular - I've seen this ASB tactic used all tournament and I just think actually, Soundwave, it reduces variety in the tournament - there is no reason to not fit a shield booster which gives huge boosts and isn't affected at all by neuts which could previously counter shield tank setups.


Sounds like someone is butthurt about losing to an ASB equipped team (ie: a team that had a clue).
My alliance isn't in the tournament and I have no affiliation with any of the teams in the tournament except for RvB because of the awesome community PvP environment you produce. My only affiliation is with watching an enjoyable tournament.
Sakura Nihil
Faded Light
#16 - 2012-07-22 16:19:43 UTC
Parallel tanking is the problem - having both ASB's and logistics going simultaneously is the problem. Teams should have to choose one or the other.

Glory

Faded Light is recruiting
R0ot
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-07-22 16:19:52 UTC
I'm betting against the ASB so as we all know now that means it will win.
The Bazzalisk
One Risky Click
Snuffed Out
#18 - 2012-07-22 16:22:00 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

The rest of beating it basically requires you to coax out a reload while staying alive, once you do that you pounce on the ship in question and rip it apart.
But, if they don't reload then they can just use all 13 charges. If you split your dps and try to coax a reload and they don't reload, then that's it. They will get the same amount of dps repped whether you split your dps or not.

Sorry, I'm pretty bad at explaining.

If you shoot at one ship and force it to use all 13 cycles then reload, then when it reloads you kill it.
If you split your dps to try and coax something to reload and they don't, they're just taking less dps and don't need to use their ASBs as often so they don't have an obligation to reload it.
The Bazzalisk
One Risky Click
Snuffed Out
#19 - 2012-07-22 16:23:45 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

So you've seen plenty of logis die with ASB's in this tourney,
By the time you've killed the logi there are still 3 ASB vargurs/sleipnirs left alive and your dps ships will die in that time and you will not have enough dps to kill them any more. Match over.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2012-07-22 16:25:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
The Bazzalisk wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

So you've seen plenty of logis die with ASB's in this tourney,
By the time you've killed the logi there are still 3 ASB vargurs/sleipnirs left alive and your dps ships will die in that time and you will not have enough dps to kill them any more. Match over.


Pretty much this. When both logis die, the team with ASB usually wins.
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