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Paving the way to the next nerf: hulks
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Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#261 - 2012-07-16 01:23:48 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
[quote=Zhul Chembull]also, the ore bay means nothing. asteroids pop that quickly in high sec that the whole "i'll go afk for an hour and come back to a full ore bay" thing just won't work. even targeting three different asteroids i doubt there's enough to fill a jetcan's worth of space before they all pop. hence if you're constantly having to change asteroids then you may as well use a hulk and drag ore to a jetcan at the same time as swapping asteroid. assuming all of what i said above holds. it's arguable that the mackinaw is easily the weakest of the 3 exhumers announced.


AFK doesn't mean away from the house, it just means not paying full attention to the game. The tier 2 barges will be ideal for mining while watching TV or some other activity that lets you check on the barge every few minutes. For ice mining you don't have to worry about depleting roids.

I can see that the tier 1 barges will see a lot of use in public belts, especially in higher gank-risk areas, the tier 2 barges being used by AFK miners in out of the way places, and the tier 3 barges, including the hulk only being used by hard core miners, probably in fleets.
Dave Stark
#262 - 2012-07-16 05:16:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Anya Ohaya wrote:
AFK doesn't mean away from the house, it just means not paying full attention to the game. The tier 2 barges will be ideal for mining while watching TV or some other activity that lets you check on the barge every few minutes. For ice mining you don't have to worry about depleting roids.

I can see that the tier 1 barges will see a lot of use in public belts, especially in higher gank-risk areas, the tier 2 barges being used by AFK miners in out of the way places, and the tier 3 barges, including the hulk only being used by hard core miners, probably in fleets.


that's not afk mining, that's just mining... nobody sits there for 3 mins watching each cycle. do people not understand what "afk" means? with regards to ice; you won't be using the mack because it's got a big ore bay. you'll be using it because ccp aren't moving the ice bonus. as i said earlier, without the ice bonus is the mack still as appealing? i'm not sure it is.
infact, i'm a 0.0 miner and there's no ice in grav sites hence if i'm going to mine ice the neutrals roaming around get a warp-in to my location upon jumping through the stargate. if i'm going to be watching local like a hawk i'm not even close to afk but because of the ice bonus i'll be using the mack regardless.

under the assumption that hulks are still able to tank a 0.0 rat spawn forever then i see no reason not to use a hulk in 0.0 unless mining ice [as justified above], or mercoxit mining. i won't need the extra tank from the skiff if the hulk can still tank, and i won't sacrifice yield to have the ore bay the size of a jetcan especially since i just took advantage of that power of 2 thing to make myself an orca booster alt which will be my personal jetcan with what, like 150k m3 of space?

in short; if you're not doing something else for 20 mins and not even tabbing back to the game in that time, you aren't afk mining. you're just mining.
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#263 - 2012-07-16 07:47:21 UTC
I am FacelessAlt wrote:
Why should I have incentives to not fly the top of the line ship that I have spent time training for? that argument is ridiculous, us miners are already bottom of the isk foodchain and you think it's perfectly alright to step even further down???


Is not the same as saying we only need two mining barges T1/T2 version of the hulk, if you only want to fly hulk then do that, it's still the best mining barges in term of mining output. The current ship upgrade path is retriever then hulk, with the new design you get the chance to pick different ships, depending on what options and skills you have available in-game.

Some players seem annoyed that the hulk did not get battleship ehp and jetcan size ore hold, so it would remain the only real option for mining. This is eve, even considering that as an option is laughable.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Dave Stark
#264 - 2012-07-16 07:56:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
dexington wrote:
I am FacelessAlt wrote:
Why should I have incentives to not fly the top of the line ship that I have spent time training for? that argument is ridiculous, us miners are already bottom of the isk foodchain and you think it's perfectly alright to step even further down???


Is not the same as saying we only need two mining barges T1/T2 version of the hulk, if you only want to fly hulk then do that, it's still the best mining barges in term of mining output. The current ship upgrade path is retriever then hulk, with the new design you get the chance to pick different ships, depending on what options and skills you have available in-game.

Some players seem annoyed that the hulk did not get battleship ehp and jetcan size ore hold, so it would remain the only real option for mining. This is eve, even considering that as an option is laughable.


in certain situations it won't even have the highest yield.
ice mining for example, the mackinaw will have more tank, yield, and cargo space. for ice mining the mack will have the best of everything (ok except tank but it'll still have more than a hulk).
mercoxit mining, it won't have the highest yield, or tank, and since neither ship has a 27k ore bay like the mack will have you'll be jetcanning either way...

the hulk doesn't even retain it's "highest yield mining" ship unless you're munching standard asteroids. if you look at it in this perspective the other 2 ships do get "best of everything with no drawbacks" the hulk doesn't get that in any situation.
not to mention the lack of removal of the ice/mercox bonuses means the hulk is less useful in comparison, even more so when the other two ships will be close to the hulk's yield on standard asteroids.

i find it amusing people say "the hulk shouldn't get everything" except that's exactly what you've got with the skiff and mack when it comes to mercoxit and ice. don't give me the "not every one mines ice/mercoxit" stuff, with the current low zydrine prices and high low-end prices mercoxit is (i think) the second highest isk/hr ore behind arkonor, so you should be mining it.

in short; lose the ice/mercox bonuses. then we can pick tank or cargo vs yield in every situation, not just for asteroid belts/grav sites.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#265 - 2012-07-17 00:09:31 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
dexington wrote:
I am FacelessAlt wrote:
Why should I have incentives to not fly the top of the line ship that I have spent time training for? that argument is ridiculous, us miners are already bottom of the isk foodchain and you think it's perfectly alright to step even further down???


Is not the same as saying we only need two mining barges T1/T2 version of the hulk, if you only want to fly hulk then do that, it's still the best mining barges in term of mining output. The current ship upgrade path is retriever then hulk, with the new design you get the chance to pick different ships, depending on what options and skills you have available in-game.

Some players seem annoyed that the hulk did not get battleship ehp and jetcan size ore hold, so it would remain the only real option for mining. This is eve, even considering that as an option is laughable.


in certain situations it won't even have the highest yield.
ice mining for example, the mackinaw will have more tank, yield, and cargo space. for ice mining the mack will have the best of everything (ok except tank but it'll still have more than a hulk).
mercoxit mining, it won't have the highest yield, or tank, and since neither ship has a 27k ore bay like the mack will have you'll be jetcanning either way...

the hulk doesn't even retain it's "highest yield mining" ship unless you're munching standard asteroids. if you look at it in this perspective the other 2 ships do get "best of everything with no drawbacks" the hulk doesn't get that in any situation.
not to mention the lack of removal of the ice/mercox bonuses means the hulk is less useful in comparison, even more so when the other two ships will be close to the hulk's yield on standard asteroids.

i find it amusing people say "the hulk shouldn't get everything" except that's exactly what you've got with the skiff and mack when it comes to mercoxit and ice. don't give me the "not every one mines ice/mercoxit" stuff, with the current low zydrine prices and high low-end prices mercoxit is (i think) the second highest isk/hr ore behind arkonor, so you should be mining it.

in short; lose the ice/mercox bonuses. then we can pick tank or cargo vs yield in every situation, not just for asteroid belts/grav sites.



You keep saying what will be and won't. Did they finally give out ship stats and I missed it? If they did, link please and thank you in advanceAttention If they did not, you would be basing a lot of your info on unknowns.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Dave Stark
#266 - 2012-07-17 00:13:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
You keep saying what will be and won't. Did they finally give out ship stats and I missed it? If they did, link please and thank you in advanceAttention If they did not, you would be basing a lot of your info on unknowns.


which part?

they have already stated in the blog which ship has more hp, or more cargo, or more yield.
as for the bonuses they said they aren't moving them (some one linked it to me in another thread and i didn't save it, i'm sure if you forum search it then you'll find it). hence none of what i've said is based on unknowns. exact numbers are unknown, granted. however the order of the ships in a best to worse order isn't unknown it's been announced in the blog.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#267 - 2012-07-17 00:58:27 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
You keep saying what will be and won't. Did they finally give out ship stats and I missed it? If they did, link please and thank you in advanceAttention If they did not, you would be basing a lot of your info on unknowns.


which part?

they have already stated in the blog which ship has more hp, or more cargo, or more yield.
as for the bonuses they said they aren't moving them (some one linked it to me in another thread and i didn't save it, i'm sure if you forum search it then you'll find it). hence none of what i've said is based on unknowns. exact numbers are unknown, granted. however the order of the ships in a best to worse order isn't unknown it's been announced in the blog.


Ah, yep, missed the note about them not moving bonuses. I'll look around for it, thx. That could make things a bit more problematic for the balance of the ships, unless they really tamper with numbers hard. Will be interesting to see the final product.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#268 - 2012-07-17 07:01:52 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
in short; lose the ice/mercox bonuses. then we can pick tank or cargo vs yield in every situation, not just for asteroid belts/grav sites.


Is that not the same as saying the hulk should get a mercox/ice bonus?, i can't see why CCP should nerf the other ships just to make the hulk a viable ice/mercox miner. I think the current system of specialization for ice/mercox/asteroids works, on the other hand i don't care if CCP change it.

I don't like the "hulk is all you need" philosophy, and most of the time output is more important then ore hold or ehp. Giving all the bonuses to the hulk, does somewhat limit the viable options when picking what ship to use.

It would be nice to see the hulk getting something new, just like the other ships, but redesigning the other ships to give more options and at the same time buffing the hulk to the point where it is always the best choice is counter productive.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Dave Stark
#269 - 2012-07-17 07:45:02 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
You keep saying what will be and won't. Did they finally give out ship stats and I missed it? If they did, link please and thank you in advanceAttention If they did not, you would be basing a lot of your info on unknowns.


which part?

they have already stated in the blog which ship has more hp, or more cargo, or more yield.
as for the bonuses they said they aren't moving them (some one linked it to me in another thread and i didn't save it, i'm sure if you forum search it then you'll find it). hence none of what i've said is based on unknowns. exact numbers are unknown, granted. however the order of the ships in a best to worse order isn't unknown it's been announced in the blog.


Ah, yep, missed the note about them not moving bonuses. I'll look around for it, thx. That could make things a bit more problematic for the balance of the ships, unless they really tamper with numbers hard. Will be interesting to see the final product.


yeah i missed it too at first it wasn't in the blog, just some comment on a massive thread. sorry i didn't save the link.

dexington wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
in short; lose the ice/mercox bonuses. then we can pick tank or cargo vs yield in every situation, not just for asteroid belts/grav sites.


Is that not the same as saying the hulk should get a mercox/ice bonus?, i can't see why CCP should nerf the other ships just to make the hulk a viable ice/mercox miner. I think the current system of specialization for ice/mercox/asteroids works, on the other hand i don't care if CCP change it.

I don't like the "hulk is all you need" philosophy, and most of the time output is more important then ore hold or ehp. Giving all the bonuses to the hulk, does somewhat limit the viable options when picking what ship to use.

It would be nice to see the hulk getting something new, just like the other ships, but redesigning the other ships to give more options and at the same time buffing the hulk to the point where it is always the best choice is counter productive.



no it's not. giving the hulk ice and mercox bonuses still makes the skiff redudant for ice and the mack redudant for mercox. none of the ships should feel redudant if ccp want players to have a choice. as it stands if you want to mine the afforementioned you will pick the ship with the bonus. just like if you want to camp a gate you're more likely to use an instacane than a torp raven; both will work but the instacane is arguably the best.

i'm not sure i care either way about the whole "hulk is all you need" thing, however ccp want to design the barges around picking the right barge for the right situation rather than "you want to mine, you use the hulk" situation we have now. however when it comes to ice and mercox you're still stuck with the mack and skiff respectively due to the bonuses. what is the point of having new ship roles when all you're going to do is force players in to one ship with bonuses to specific tasks? they all need to mine all ores/ice equally and then vary yield depending on ship, not on asteroid.

the hulk doesn't need anything new. it's the benchmark from which all other ships are measured the hulk is the great white shark of mining. it hasn't had to change nor does it need to. (ok bit more tank to avoid being ganked by disposable destroyer setups but beyond that, hulk can remain lagely untouched).