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What keeps you from PvPing?

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Jorg Bock
Private Chaos inc
#221 - 2012-07-13 09:58:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorg Bock
For me the question is: why should i "PvP" in EvE?
PvP in EvE melts down to blobbing or attacking helpless players, nothing else. The first is boring and the second is simply bullying nothing more.
In this Forum are threads where the "brave" Null sec players cry about afk cloaky in their system and that they then are not able to undock, because they may get shoot. While i understand their problem (getting shoot without a chance to fight back if hotdroped) this speaks many words about their will to risk anything and how fun the normally strictly one sided PvP in EvE is (for the losing side that has no chance...)

First rule in EvE: Do not trust anybody. So i prefer to play alone and not trusting anybode, which means as quite new player no off grid boosting, no cloaky friends waiting, no RR and so on. This means PvP in EvE style (only fight with overhelming odds on your side...) is not possible, so why should i keep on loosing time and ISK and not getting fun?
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#222 - 2012-07-13 09:59:20 UTC
Halete wrote:
Bunnie Hop wrote:
Halete wrote:
hedge betts Shiyurida wrote:
I have two kids, a wife and a life.


Confirming this is relevant because nobody who PvPs in EVE is a well-balanced individual with a life.


clever how you only took part of his statement to quote Roll


You're right, I should have criticized the valid part of his post.

Wait, no.


He/she gave a reason why that person did not do much pvp, and while some people may both spend time with their family and do pvp, does not mean everyone has the same time schedule or may prioritize things differently.

Maybe you should read what people post twice before you take personal offence, and make some smug remark about their post being irreverent, chances are you did not understand it correctly the first time.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#223 - 2012-07-13 10:08:38 UTC
Fairly certain that I didn't take personal offence, act in smugness or misunderstand. Perhaps you should read my post twice.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Krysta Bourne
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#224 - 2012-07-13 10:26:49 UTC
Sarah Schneider wrote:

Pardon me, but you were also failed to comprehend my reply. Also, I'm not insulting your answers and my last statement were not directed specifically towards you, but that's my fault for not making it clear I suppose.

I also came from many MMOs before Eve where some of them involves unprovoked attacks as part of their gameplay, a lot of instances where people gloat over stomping over weaker players. This happens on a lot of MMOs, not just Eve. That's just the way it works, on MMOs and on the internet.

Eve is a game, even more, Eve is a game that promotes conflict through player interaction more than any other MMOs I've played in the last 10 years. Eve also have one of the harshest environment out there. When we sign up for the game and undocks, we consent to be involved in this environment, regardless of whether we like the outcome by the end of the day, or not. It's our choice and it's just the way it is. People play games to have fun, whether the aspect of getting killed or "bullied" proves to be stressful or not, it's up to the player. We made our choice to be part of it.

What you're talking about is more close to griefing than anything else. There are many kinds of pvp, many types of people who's doing them and how it's done. I wasn't talking about grabbing a ship in hisec and go suicide gank or canflip people. I was talking about pvp in general. When I got killed in pvp, I've never felt I was being "bullied" or that I was that handicapped kid in school who can't do nothing besides watching them laugh at me. I just lost my ship (and on some cases, my pod), that's it. I'm sure most pvpers felt the same way when they died/won't care either.


I appologize if I didn't quite understand your post. PvP players and PvE players tend to speak different languages. What I was trying to get across is the fact that ganking/griefing is still PvP. A player killing another player, whether or not their victims fight back, is still player vs. player. You can't really separate griefing vs fair fight when using the term PvP. A lot of PvE players have the image of griefing another player when they think of PvP, not consentual "may the best man win." This is the very reason I answered the way I did; the question on PvP was asked, my answer was given in regards to PvP as a whole.

I've played the PvP role before and while it was fun for maybe 10 seconds, that was it. I became well aware of the the other side of the coin, and became the victim to repeated zergfests and continuous griefing, all the while being told, " learn to PvP." It seems a common theme among all PvPvE games is to force the PvE players into PvP so the PvP players can enjoy the game, all the while ensuring that the PvE players can't. If you look at it, the PvE player pays the monthly fee so that someone else can enjoy the game. This is a key reason that I choose not to PvP and/or associate with PvPers, as in my mind, their whole goal is to pick on the PvE players.

Yes this is a game with the constant threat of death from another player, but it is not strictly PvP. If I were going to PvP I'd have to know 100% that the person in my sights ALSO wants to PvP, not some PvE player who just wants to relax and unwind (like myself). I'd bet money that the majority of PvP players never even consider that. True, PvE players accept the threat every time they undock, but that doesn't mean that they want to PvP. Some PvP players just can't accept the fact that their way of enjoying the game isn't the only way to enjoy it.

TL;DR - If I want PvP I go play something like BF, MW, Halo, where I know 100% that all players are there PvP.
Zowie Powers
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#225 - 2012-07-13 11:12:02 UTC
Zowie Powers wrote:
Keep out from conspiracy and rumors. Thanks. - ISD LoneLynx

Sadly, it's absolutely true but it's certainly not in your interests to acknowledge, understand or act upon it.

ATX: The best of the rest.
Freezehunter
#226 - 2012-07-13 11:54:05 UTC
Price of learning implants and the utter inflexibility of the jump clone system.

I am not willing to spend an extra 100-500 mil to replace learning implants when I get podded, which happens A LOT in 0.0.

Most of the times my learning implant clone loss costs more than the ship and module loss, which is bullshit, especially since my clone alone now costs about 60 mils..

Inappropriate signature, CCP Phantom.
Itis Zhellin
#227 - 2012-07-13 12:14:33 UTC
This is an excelent question and it gives me the oportunity to vent a bit. I'm a new player and I'm not afraid to pvp. Also, I dont *** tears when I die and loose a ship. I'm aware about how harsh is EVE and actually I love it so much that I even made another account.

But I can't do anything in this game with only 4M SP. The pvp in this game is skill vs skill. And I'm talking about the skills you need to train for months/years. To wait months nor years to be able to compete and survive in null sec is not exactly on my taste. Actually, to keep paying the subscription and wait until you have the skills that will allow you to be competitive is ridiculous.

I just lost my my BS. Actually is not only a BS, it's a Battle Ship. Something that in theory should be big, dangerous and hard to take it down. But I lost it in 12 (twelve) seconds to a rapier and something else that jumped out from nowhere. I lost a Sigil in 8 seconds to a hurricane, but that was a freighter and has no protection fit. My BS lasted 4 seconds more. Whys is that? Simply because the ganker(s) had millions of more SP than I have. I can't compete to a 5 year or more older player, no matter what I fly.

So what are my options here? To stay in hi sec until I have more skills and be called a carebear, ganked and eventualy asked to gtfo of the game because I'm bad to the game, or keep staying in null where my chance of survival to any other player is -1?

Finally, I'm not interested in players opinion, but rather in how CCP evaluate the chances that a new players will have in EVE. If CCP consider that is normal to bring down a BS in 12 seconds just because the other player have years of skill training in his pocket, than yeah.. this game is not for everybody and is no chance to grow in size, Dust or not Dust..

Salute o/
Luba Cibre
Global Song Setup
#228 - 2012-07-13 12:21:26 UTC
Itis Zhellin wrote:
But I can't do anything in this game with only 4M SP. The pvp in this game is skill vs skill. And I'm talking about the skills you need to train for months/years.

You're all kinds of wrong.

"Nothing essential happens in the absence of noise." 
Sugar Von MurdererTits
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#229 - 2012-07-13 12:22:24 UTC
Kisumii wrote:
Most of the new guys I take out on roams simply dont understand the mechanics of pvp be it hisec war or low/null. They are more afraid of "doing it wrong" than actually losing a ship.


People in the game can be pretty nasty when you stuff up. Personally that made me shy about joining fleets during the brief time I was was in a player corp. The level of mockery and ridicule leveled at players who don't know exactly how to fit any given type of ship, or who shoot blues accidentally because their overview isn't set up right, or don't understand 'transversal', 'kiting' or other PvP terms, bothers me far more than losing a ship or some implants.

I guess that makes me too soft for Eve.

I'm ready to have another crack at it though. Big smile
Abditus Cularius
Clancularius Industries
#230 - 2012-07-13 12:24:23 UTC
I take no particular pleasure in ruining someone else's day, and find little other reasons to do it.
Vellen Thoss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#231 - 2012-07-13 12:25:53 UTC
Doc Severide wrote:
RAW23 wrote:
This was exacerbated by having a wife who hates computer games with a passion and considers it a slap in the face if I don't 'pause' my game and give her my full attention whenever she speaks to me.

That sucks. My wife has her own gaming rig. Her and I played together for several years in Unreal Tournament. I have a very elaborate computer room with 12 gaming rigs and buy what I want as long as she gets one too.

But on topic:

I started EVE after a friend told me about ECM. I wanted to fly a Scorpion. I have 2 toons that have every Electronics Skill to Level 5 as well as every Core Skill to Level 5. I've never been a kill mail ***** and in 3 1/2 years of playng I haven't had one kill. I'm generally more interested in support roles.

I'd like to do PVP but:

- I'm not very good at it and don't know how to get better. Not interested in corps like EVE-University, I find them to be wayyyy to anal...
- RvB is a joke. Too many limitaions such as no ECM, no this, no that or the other thing.
- The null sec blob sucks.
- Trying to join a corp is just plain stupid the hoops you have to jump through. I was invited to join a corp in RAZOR Alliance. I gave them my API, bla bla, etc but 1/2 way through the 30 pages of questions I said "**** this" and gave up.

I don't mind losing ships if I was doing actual PVP. I have 10's of Billions of ISK and about 40 fitted Battle Ships just sitting around. I have 5 accounts, 9 toons and spend my time now just doing exploration...and hanging out in CP chat so I have someone to talk to..




I am kind of in the same boat. So long as we play together, we are great, we have tons of fun, its amazing. The second I play a game on my own (She does not like EVE, or any sci-fi game for that matter), she'll get upset for playing on my own.
Diablo Ex
Nocturne Holdings
#232 - 2012-07-13 12:50:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Diablo Ex
Luba Cibre wrote:
Itis Zhellin wrote:
But I can't do anything in this game with only 4M SP. The pvp in this game is skill vs skill. And I'm talking about the skills you need to train for months/years.

You're all kinds of wrong.


And you too need to Biomass yourself.

A "New" player doesn't have the knowledge of game mechanics that an "Old" player with a new 4M SP Alt has.
Yes, you can do a lot with 4M SP... but it takes years to figure that out.

There are "In-Game" skills that you can pick from a shopping list, and there are "Real" skills that can only be acquired over years of game play. Learn to recognize the difference.

Diablo Ex Machina - "I'm not here to fix your problem"
HalfArse
Wixo Trading Co.
#233 - 2012-07-13 13:01:37 UTC
I spent 3 years pvping in 0.0 and low sec. I burned out cos of several things - fleets/roaming always took SEVERAL hours minimum, when i first played i was at uni so no prob but now I can garantee that i wont have to leave my comp at the drop of a hat and cant play more than 2/3 hours on weekdays.

I found the mechanics quite boring (fighting was mostly BS's etc) every fight allways at a gate, you jump in target and shoot the primary, then the next guy and so on. IF pvp was more of a dog fight, a fast paced melee id be more interested....infact this is why im about to try FW as i hear its mostly frigs/small ships which cater to a more exciting fight imo.
Janet Patton
Brony Express
#234 - 2012-07-13 13:23:38 UTC
I don't PvP because I don't like preying on other people and I don't get LOL's out of smashing someone weaker then me, which seems to be what PvP is all about in EVE. I wouldn't mind engaging anyone that has negative sec or a bad rep though. But those players seem to be well experienced and I would just give them a free kill. Don't get me wrong, I like the threat of PvP and how EVE is very open that way, but it just seems to indiscriminate to be any fun and to much about the killboards. Also fitting a ship for PvP makes it completely useless to do anything else.

Most PvP seems to be just picking targets who you know wont fight you back or don't want to PvP. It is a lot harder to find those who I think deserve to be blown up idle somewhere.

Why do I have this sig? I don't smoke.
Fidelium Mortis
Minor Major Miners LLC
#235 - 2012-07-13 13:34:02 UTC
Personally I'm a huge proponent of PvP in low sec, primarily because of the wide range of fights that you can get, and also a seemingly inherent willingness to fight which to a degree can be lacking at times in 0.0. I think the last few posts regarding "typical" 0.0 PvP echos this sentiment, however, I also believe it reflects an individual corp/alliance's culture more than it is inherent. I have been in corps that have players that actively seek to do small gang roams, however, I have also been in corps where players are far more content to rake in ISK than actively seek PvP.

Low-sec PvP is pretty good as is, which is evident in the number of ships lost per average population, if anything the main money making streams outside of FW are probably a bit crowded, or don't have enough reward for the risk.

0.0 needs a bit of help. I think part of the issue is, it's just too easy to hold on to large amounts of space, which makes it a lot tougher for "squatters" to set up base in their own pocket. Further, there's only a handful of major entities that hold sovereignty (not necessarily control) large sections of 0.0 space. This is topped off by known issues regarding resource distribution.

ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon
hedge betts Shiyurida
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#236 - 2012-07-13 13:44:11 UTC
Halete wrote:
hedge betts Shiyurida wrote:
I have two kids, a wife and a life.


Confirming this is relevant because nobody who PvPs in EVE is a well-balanced individual with a life.
not really sure how my individual response about myself has anything to do with you or anyone else in eve.

But then again misquoting and flaming is the hidden PvP that CCP does not advertise.

Pog mo thoin

Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#237 - 2012-07-13 13:47:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarah Schneider
Krysta Bourne wrote:
I appologize if I didn't quite understand your post. PvP players and PvE players tend to speak different languages. What I was trying to get across is the fact that ganking/griefing is still PvP. A player killing another player, whether or not their victims fight back, is still player vs. player. You can't really separate griefing vs fair fight when using the term PvP. A lot of PvE players have the image of griefing another player when they think of PvP, not consentual "may the best man win." This is the very reason I answered the way I did; the question on PvP was asked, my answer was given in regards to PvP as a whole.

No need to apologize, It has been common knowledge that there are differences on perspective from people who does pvp and people who avoids them or most people may say carebear (note that I'm not using the term PvPer). I also didn't separate gankers, solo pvp, smallgang pvp, fleet pvp or sov warfare, they're just many different aspects of "pvp" in my book. That's why to my understanding (in relation to what the OP were asking), "what keeps you from PvPing?", refers to just that, why avoids pvp in general? and not directed towards any single aspect of pvp.

Krysta Bourne wrote:
I've played the PvP role before and while it was fun for maybe 10 seconds, that was it. I became well aware of the the other side of the coin, and became the victim to repeated zergfests and continuous griefing, all the while being told, " learn to PvP." It seems a common theme among all PvPvE games is to force the PvE players into PvP so the PvP players can enjoy the game, all the while ensuring that the PvE players can't. If you look at it, the PvE player pays the monthly fee so that someone else can enjoy the game. This is a key reason that I choose not to PvP and/or associate with PvPers, as in my mind, their whole goal is to pick on the PvE players.

Whether we like it or not, PvP is a huge and a core part of this game. Eve is an open sandbox game. It is a PvP game, but not in a way that everyone have to do it or else (cause that doesn't make sense for a sandbox or even MMO in general).

There is a difference between a "PvPer" and people who's fine with PvP being an integral part of gameplay. The first one deals with PvP as their primary activity, the latter, can be a mission runner, trader, miner, anything, doesn't really matter, but they are fine with people blowing up and kicking their sand castle, they can choose to kick them back or they can be passive and be smart about it (that's probably the reason some people say "learn to PvP"). The difference (in my honest opinion), between those two and a carebear or a person who avoids pvp in any way possible without adapting to the way the game is designed, is that carebears (no offense), complains, rages and cries that those things shouldn't have happened to them and came up with many different excuses as to why they won't adapt or at least do something to improve their situation.

Krysta Bourne wrote:
Yes this is a game with the constant threat of death from another player, but it is not strictly PvP. If I were going to PvP I'd have to know 100% that the person in my sights ALSO wants to PvP, not some PvE player who just wants to relax and unwind (like myself). I'd bet money that the majority of PvP players never even consider that. True, PvE players accept the threat every time they undock, but that doesn't mean that they want to PvP. Some PvP players just can't accept the fact that their way of enjoying the game isn't the only way to enjoy it.

TL;DR - If I want PvP I go play something like BF, MW, Halo, where I know 100% that all players are there PvP.

What you've listed are casual PvP MMO and not a sandbox MMORPG with PvP as the main theme, which is Eve. There are also some differences between Eve and other MMORPGs that has PvP elements, the main difference being, the enforced open engagement part. In other MMOs, you can do PvP, some can be done anywhere, some has certain zones specifically designed just for PvP. In Eve, there is nothing like that. The moment you undock, you consent to being a part of PvP, whether you like it, or not.

There are no safe "instances" where you can do raids without some other group coming in and stabs you in the back, there are no houses or towns where PvP is not allowed (well except for stations ofc, hence the undock part). You can be shot anywhere in space, and you're free to shoot back if you want to. The question is, will you?

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
Danfen Fenix
#238 - 2012-07-13 13:49:43 UTC
Freezehunter wrote:
Price of learning implants and the utter inflexibility of the jump clone system.

I am not willing to spend an extra 100-500 mil to replace learning implants when I get podded, which happens A LOT in 0.0.

Most of the times my learning implant clone loss costs more than the ship and module loss, which is bullshit, especially since my clone alone now costs about 60 mils..


I have a tip...don't use learning implants. Next time you're podded, leave your clone empty. You'll feel so much better about it when you do P You save money and don't have to worry so much about getting in a fight with another player.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#239 - 2012-07-13 13:59:56 UTC
I did a lot of PvP in my time as a Il-2 Shturmovik online pilot.

Why?

- Mostly 1v1 engagements.
- Zero time wasted recovering from losses
- Short time to find action
- Could be done in 5 spare minutes
- Killboards, different airplanes, different tactics, there was a challenge to go for

Also use to play Battlefield Heroes when I take a leave from EVE.

Why?

- Zero time wasted recovering from losses
- Short time to find action
- Can be done in 5 spare minutes
- Random team mates, different maps, different tactics, there is a challenge to go for

Spend hours looking for action, then be bullied 10 to 1, then spend hours to rebuild your ship does not really appeal to me...

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Naomi Reiku
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#240 - 2012-07-13 14:24:27 UTC

New player here.

Currently feeling more like exploring 0.0 and seeing whats out there. Not interested in sitting around camping gates, or shooting people 20 to 1.... it just isnt fun for me. Im sure I will get hunted and shut down by bored 0.0 citizens. Good. Lets see if I can learn something from it.