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Destruction Testing the New Wardec System (Ganks Included - Free wardec inside)

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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#381 - 2012-07-09 20:33:46 UTC
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:
The only problem with you saying that he, CCP and the CSM are lying ad infinitum (italics) is that you are objectively wrong.


"Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia."

No, you're not fake wrong or revisionist history wrong, you're plain wrong.


My dear, if you are an example of what it is to be "right" under the current regime then frankly being "wrong" is high praise and thunderous acclaim rolled to perfection between the sweet olive thighs of a delicious island beauty and smoked wryly over a particularly fine cognac.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#382 - 2012-07-09 20:41:27 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
My dear, if you are an example of what it is to be "right" under the current regime then frankly being "wrong" is high praise and thunderous acclaim rolled to perfection between the sweet olive thighs of a delicious island beauty and smoked wryly over a particularly fine cognac.

It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Werst Dendenahzees
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#383 - 2012-07-09 21:47:40 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:
The only problem with you saying that he, CCP and the CSM are lying ad infinitum (italics) is that you are objectively wrong.


"Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia."

No, you're not fake wrong or revisionist history wrong, you're plain wrong.


My dear, if you are an example of what it is to be "right" under the current regime then frankly being "wrong" is high praise and thunderous acclaim rolled to perfection between the sweet olive thighs of a delicious island beauty and smoked wryly over a particularly fine cognac.



You are wrong with a thesaurus.
Werst Dendenahzees
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#384 - 2012-07-09 21:50:41 UTC
This is why I hate new age hippies and wiccans. Screw relativism. When you are saying things that simply aren't true that's not ''Your opinion brah! Respect mine!'', it's plain wrong.
Kei Masuda
Les Enfants de Gaia
#385 - 2012-07-10 00:05:21 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:
The only problem with you saying that he, CCP and the CSM are lying ad infinitum (italics) is that you are objectively wrong.


"Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia."

No, you're not fake wrong or revisionist history wrong, you're plain wrong.


My dear, if you are an example of what it is to be "right" under the current regime then frankly being "wrong" is high praise and thunderous acclaim rolled to perfection between the sweet olive thighs of a delicious island beauty and smoked wryly over a particularly fine cognac.



lol oscar wilde of the forums would read again Big smile
Ben Youssef Noban
Doomheim
#386 - 2012-07-10 14:22:17 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Destruction Testing the New Wardec System (Ganks Included)

Okay here’s what I understand of the way wardecs work now with inferno. Entity X pays a fee to declare war against entity Y. This becomes a formal war. Entity Y has a couple of options at this point. It can:

a) Fight the war alone
b) Call for allies to fight the war
c) Offer a surrender to the aggressor

and

d) Double-down by declaring the war mutual.

Ways of finishing a war (again to my understanding)

1) Beat up the aggressor so they stop paying the war and the war ends (all allies go home)
2) Get beaten up by the aggressor, offer a surrender that the aggressor accepts (all allies go home)
3) Run away and hide so the aggressor gets bored and stops paying for the war anyway
4) Disband alliance / corp etc and skulk off like a yellow dog

Now these all really give the aggressor a bit too much power to either pay or stop paying and thus control their own involvement in the war. The aggressor could even run away and keep paying just to save face before claiming an accidental “oops we forgot to pay concord this week :shrug:” style excuse

So to the more interesting option in the new system making a war mutual.

By the text of the Inferno war blog it seems that if the war fee is zero (as it will be in mutual war) then the aggressor can no longer just :shrug: and forget to pay the bill they are stuck in the war as long as the defender wants them to be. This means the aggressor would have to propose a surrender contract that is accepted by the defending entity (and would presumably have to be worth quite a bit!)

Now originally in the Inferno war blog they said they didn’t know what to do about allies in a mutual war and discussed having the allies drop and barred from joining if the war is made mutual – but it seems CCP thought the better of that option (which is good because otherwise there is a huge advantage for a large power deccing a smaller one). I’ve tested making a war mutual, and adding allies to the war on top and the functionality works.

So to the destruction test of the new wardec system.

My alliance “The Star Fraction” has been wardecced by Goonswarm Federation. Presumably as part of Mittani’s “ministry of love/deathsquad” kneejerk against forum foes – but really the details don’t matter. Currently The Star Fraction is about 9000 members smaller than Goonswarm. The Goons have enough isk to maintain such a wardec for about ten million years so from their perspective would be eternal as long as they want it.

This didn’t sit well to my taste so I decided to make it mutual. This means the war is eternal unless they surrender to The Star Fraction. A surrender contract you can be assured will be widely publicised and circulated. The minimum sum we're likely to accept from Mittani for a surrender will be 5 billion isk per active ally we have at the time of the surrender but we promise to invite the heads of all allied corporations into a channel to discuss and vote on such terms and division of spoils across all allies

We do however have a bit of a problem. We’re currently allied to the republic militias fighting against the Amarrian 24th Crusade and formally wardecced against both the Amarrian Imperium and the Caldari State – which rules our ships out of sensible combat options across the majority of hisec where the goons like the travel.

So we need more allies!

Our allies will get for the grand cost of “well nothing really” an enduring wardec with the largest alliance in Eve Online which will last as long as it takes for Mittani to offer a formal and expensive surrender to the Star Fraction.

I will accept all allied assistance offers as long as the contract is offered for free.

My ambition is to see hisec New Eden turned into an Inferno-scale grand war of Goonswarm Federation (9000 members) against 9000 heroic rag tag mercs, independents, vengeance-seeking ex victims, rival warlords, in fact anyone who wants to shoot Goons in high security space anywhere in new eden.

If this can be done it would mean more people would be on the books on the Goonswarm Federation vs New Eden (hosted by the Star Fraction) wardec than in Gallente vs Caldari faction war, and you have to admit that would be rather grand.


  • I’d like to test the system to this extent.
  • I’d like to see if CCP planned for this kind of huge mutual all-encompassing wardec
  • I’d like to see an outfit that is initially 9100 v 100 outgunned use the ally system to significantly even the odds.
  • And I'd like to see if Eve's biggest organization can be hoisted on their own petard and humiliated by the wardec system.


So if you are interested in adding 9100 FREE wartargets to your hisec activities whatever they are then open the Wars dialogue in your corp management screen and search for “the star fraction” select the “Goonswarm Federation vs The Star Fraction” (mutual war) option only and offer assistance. If you make the offer zero isk I’ll accept it and welcome to the free war against the fattest target list in New Eden.

(Be aware, if your organization is ALREADY in a war or allied to a war against Goonswarm Federation I will not be able to accept your offer of assistance at this time.)

I'll keep the thread updated as heroic new allies join the struggle and bright acts of revolutionary violence are done against the regressive hulls of Goonswarm vessels.



Does war continue or end now?
Werst Dendenahzees
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#387 - 2012-07-10 18:05:18 UTC
It continues

Forever
Werst Dendenahzees
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#388 - 2012-07-10 18:07:23 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:
The only problem with you saying that he, CCP and the CSM are lying ad infinitum (italics) is that you are objectively wrong.


"Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia."

No, you're not fake wrong or revisionist history wrong, you're plain wrong.


My dear, if you are an example of what it is to be "right" under the current regime then frankly being "wrong" is high praise and thunderous acclaim rolled to perfection between the sweet olive thighs of a delicious island beauty and smoked wryly over a particularly fine cognac.



I'm still laughing at this particular bit of literary filler that could be used at the end of any phrase ever.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#389 - 2012-07-10 18:24:10 UTC
Ben Youssef Noban wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Destruction Testing the New Wardec System (Ganks Included)

Okay here’s what I understand of the way wardecs work now with inferno. Entity X pays a fee to declare war against entity Y. This becomes a formal war. Entity Y has a couple of options at this point. It can:

a) Fight the war alone
b) Call for allies to fight the war
c) Offer a surrender to the aggressor

and

d) Double-down by declaring the war mutual.

Ways of finishing a war (again to my understanding)

1) Beat up the aggressor so they stop paying the war and the war ends (all allies go home)
2) Get beaten up by the aggressor, offer a surrender that the aggressor accepts (all allies go home)
3) Run away and hide so the aggressor gets bored and stops paying for the war anyway
4) Disband alliance / corp etc and skulk off like a yellow dog

Now these all really give the aggressor a bit too much power to either pay or stop paying and thus control their own involvement in the war. The aggressor could even run away and keep paying just to save face before claiming an accidental “oops we forgot to pay concord this week :shrug:” style excuse

So to the more interesting option in the new system making a war mutual.

By the text of the Inferno war blog it seems that if the war fee is zero (as it will be in mutual war) then the aggressor can no longer just :shrug: and forget to pay the bill they are stuck in the war as long as the defender wants them to be. This means the aggressor would have to propose a surrender contract that is accepted by the defending entity (and would presumably have to be worth quite a bit!)

Now originally in the Inferno war blog they said they didn’t know what to do about allies in a mutual war and discussed having the allies drop and barred from joining if the war is made mutual – but it seems CCP thought the better of that option (which is good because otherwise there is a huge advantage for a large power deccing a smaller one). I’ve tested making a war mutual, and adding allies to the war on top and the functionality works.

So to the destruction test of the new wardec system.

My alliance “The Star Fraction” has been wardecced by Goonswarm Federation. Presumably as part of Mittani’s “ministry of love/deathsquad” kneejerk against forum foes – but really the details don’t matter. Currently The Star Fraction is about 9000 members smaller than Goonswarm. The Goons have enough isk to maintain such a wardec for about ten million years so from their perspective would be eternal as long as they want it.

This didn’t sit well to my taste so I decided to make it mutual. This means the war is eternal unless they surrender to The Star Fraction. A surrender contract you can be assured will be widely publicised and circulated. The minimum sum we're likely to accept from Mittani for a surrender will be 5 billion isk per active ally we have at the time of the surrender but we promise to invite the heads of all allied corporations into a channel to discuss and vote on such terms and division of spoils across all allies

We do however have a bit of a problem. We’re currently allied to the republic militias fighting against the Amarrian 24th Crusade and formally wardecced against both the Amarrian Imperium and the Caldari State – which rules our ships out of sensible combat options across the majority of hisec where the goons like the travel.

So we need more allies!

Our allies will get for the grand cost of “well nothing really” an enduring wardec with the largest alliance in Eve Online which will last as long as it takes for Mittani to offer a formal and expensive surrender to the Star Fraction.

I will accept all allied assistance offers as long as the contract is offered for free.

My ambition is to see hisec New Eden turned into an Inferno-scale grand war of Goonswarm Federation (9000 members) against 9000 heroic rag tag mercs, independents, vengeance-seeking ex victims, rival warlords, in fact anyone who wants to shoot Goons in high security space anywhere in new eden.

If this can be done it would mean more people would be on the books on the Goonswarm Federation vs New Eden (hosted by the Star Fraction) wardec than in Gallente vs Caldari faction war, and you have to admit that would be rather grand.


  • I’d like to test the system to this extent.
  • I’d like to see if CCP planned for this kind of huge mutual all-encompassing wardec
  • I’d like to see an outfit that is initially 9100 v 100 outgunned use the ally system to significantly even the odds.
  • And I'd like to see if Eve's biggest organization can be hoisted on their own petard and humiliated by the wardec system.


So if you are interested in adding 9100 FREE wartargets to your hisec activities whatever they are then open the Wars dialogue in your corp management screen and search for “the star fraction” select the “Goonswarm Federation vs The Star Fraction” (mutual war) option only and offer assistance. If you make the offer zero isk I’ll accept it and welcome to the free war against the fattest target list in New Eden.



Does war continue or end now?







The Inferno 1.0 "escalated" war is over (that ended when CCP changed the war rules to prevent large scale defensive coalitions.) The incoming goon "grief war" (or whatever) will likely continue to the end of Eve since there is no way to force an attacker to drop a wardec whether they intend to fight it or not (and goonswarm have enough isk to maintain the wardec until the earth's sun shrivels up and the planet becomes a barren lump of ice.)

Presumably this was the intention of the 1.1 patch.


The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Krystalline Meth
Doomheim
#390 - 2012-07-10 18:31:39 UTC
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:
The only problem with you saying that he, CCP and the CSM are lying ad infinitum (italics) is that you are objectively wrong.


"Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia."

No, you're not fake wrong or revisionist history wrong, you're plain wrong.


My dear, if you are an example of what it is to be "right" under the current regime then frankly being "wrong" is high praise and thunderous acclaim rolled to perfection between the sweet olive thighs of a delicious island beauty and smoked wryly over a particularly fine cognac.



I'm still laughing at this particular bit of literary filler that could be used at the end of any phrase ever.


Ya gotta admit she has a turn of phrase gets a person a bit hot and bothered Oops
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#391 - 2012-07-10 22:38:57 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
The Inferno 1.0 "escalated" war is over (that ended when CCP changed the war rules to prevent large scale defensive coalitions.) The incoming goon "grief war" (or whatever) will likely continue to the end of Eve since there is no way to force an attacker to drop a wardec whether they intend to fight it or not (and goonswarm have enough isk to maintain the wardec until the earth's sun shrivels up and the planet becomes a barren lump of ice.)

Presumably this was the intention of the 1.1 patch.

Come down from off of Mount Tinfoil, it's cold up there.
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Regarding defenders now being defenseless, etc. This change will make it a little bit more difficult to defend, but what we have to do is strike a balance between defender options and incentives to declare war. We can give defenders all kinds of shiny new tools to defend themselves, but if they result in nobody declaring war anymore, then why bother? Yes, we want the system as a whole to have more consequences, but that cuts both ways.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Werst Dendenahzees
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#392 - 2012-07-11 00:17:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Werst Dendenahzees
Krystalline Meth wrote:



Ya gotta admit she has a turn of phrase gets a person a bit hot and bothered Oops


He*
e: *it
Ben Youssef Noban
Doomheim
#393 - 2012-07-11 04:35:28 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Ben Youssef Noban wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Destruction Testing the New Wardec System (Ganks Included)

Okay here’s what I understand of the way wardecs work now with inferno. Entity X pays a fee to declare war against entity Y. This becomes a formal war. Entity Y has a couple of options at this point. It can:

a) Fight the war alone
b) Call for allies to fight the war
c) Offer a surrender to the aggressor

and

d) Double-down by declaring the war mutual.

Ways of finishing a war (again to my understanding)

1) Beat up the aggressor so they stop paying the war and the war ends (all allies go home)
2) Get beaten up by the aggressor, offer a surrender that the aggressor accepts (all allies go home)
3) Run away and hide so the aggressor gets bored and stops paying for the war anyway
4) Disband alliance / corp etc and skulk off like a yellow dog

Now these all really give the aggressor a bit too much power to either pay or stop paying and thus control their own involvement in the war. The aggressor could even run away and keep paying just to save face before claiming an accidental “oops we forgot to pay concord this week :shrug:” style excuse

So to the more interesting option in the new system making a war mutual.

By the text of the Inferno war blog it seems that if the war fee is zero (as it will be in mutual war) then the aggressor can no longer just :shrug: and forget to pay the bill they are stuck in the war as long as the defender wants them to be. This means the aggressor would have to propose a surrender contract that is accepted by the defending entity (and would presumably have to be worth quite a bit!)

Now originally in the Inferno war blog they said they didn’t know what to do about allies in a mutual war and discussed having the allies drop and barred from joining if the war is made mutual – but it seems CCP thought the better of that option (which is good because otherwise there is a huge advantage for a large power deccing a smaller one). I’ve tested making a war mutual, and adding allies to the war on top and the functionality works.

So to the destruction test of the new wardec system.

My alliance “The Star Fraction” has been wardecced by Goonswarm Federation. Presumably as part of Mittani’s “ministry of love/deathsquad” kneejerk against forum foes – but really the details don’t matter. Currently The Star Fraction is about 9000 members smaller than Goonswarm. The Goons have enough isk to maintain such a wardec for about ten million years so from their perspective would be eternal as long as they want it.

This didn’t sit well to my taste so I decided to make it mutual. This means the war is eternal unless they surrender to The Star Fraction. A surrender contract you can be assured will be widely publicised and circulated. The minimum sum we're likely to accept from Mittani for a surrender will be 5 billion isk per active ally we have at the time of the surrender but we promise to invite the heads of all allied corporations into a channel to discuss and vote on such terms and division of spoils across all allies

We do however have a bit of a problem. We’re currently allied to the republic militias fighting against the Amarrian 24th Crusade and formally wardecced against both the Amarrian Imperium and the Caldari State – which rules our ships out of sensible combat options across the majority of hisec where the goons like the travel.

So we need more allies!





Does war continue or end now?







The Inferno 1.0 "escalated" war is over (that ended when CCP changed the war rules to prevent large scale defensive coalitions.) The incoming goon "grief war" (or whatever) will likely continue to the end of Eve since there is no way to force an attacker to drop a wardec whether they intend to fight it or not (and goonswarm have enough isk to maintain the wardec until the earth's sun shrivels up and the planet becomes a barren lump of ice.)

Presumably this was the intention of the 1.1 patch.






Ah yes thank you for explaining. Will Goons come to attack now seriously now your allies have been removed do you think : Will your corporation be destroyed?
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#394 - 2012-07-11 15:12:51 UTC
Ben Youssef Noban wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Ben Youssef Noban wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Destruction Testing the New Wardec System (Ganks Included)

Okay here’s what I understand of the way wardecs work now with inferno. Entity X pays a fee to declare war against entity Y. This becomes a formal war. Entity Y has a couple of options at this point. It can:

a) Fight the war alone
b) Call for allies to fight the war
c) Offer a surrender to the aggressor

and

d) Double-down by declaring the war mutual.

Ways of finishing a war (again to my understanding)

1) Beat up the aggressor so they stop paying the war and the war ends (all allies go home)
2) Get beaten up by the aggressor, offer a surrender that the aggressor accepts (all allies go home)
3) Run away and hide so the aggressor gets bored and stops paying for the war anyway
4) Disband alliance / corp etc and skulk off like a yellow dog

Now these all really give the aggressor a bit too much power to either pay or stop paying and thus control their own involvement in the war. The aggressor could even run away and keep paying just to save face before claiming an accidental “oops we forgot to pay concord this week :shrug:” style excuse

So to the more interesting option in the new system making a war mutual.

By the text of the Inferno war blog it seems that if the war fee is zero (as it will be in mutual war) then the aggressor can no longer just :shrug: and forget to pay the bill they are stuck in the war as long as the defender wants them to be. This means the aggressor would have to propose a surrender contract that is accepted by the defending entity (and would presumably have to be worth quite a bit!)

Now originally in the Inferno war blog they said they didn’t know what to do about allies in a mutual war and discussed having the allies drop and barred from joining if the war is made mutual – but it seems CCP thought the better of that option (which is good because otherwise there is a huge advantage for a large power deccing a smaller one). I’ve tested making a war mutual, and adding allies to the war on top and the functionality works.

So to the destruction test of the new wardec system.

My alliance “The Star Fraction” has been wardecced by Goonswarm Federation. Presumably as part of Mittani’s “ministry of love/deathsquad” kneejerk against forum foes – but really the details don’t matter. Currently The Star Fraction is about 9000 members smaller than Goonswarm. The Goons have enough isk to maintain such a wardec for about ten million years so from their perspective would be eternal as long as they want it.

This didn’t sit well to my taste so I decided to make it mutual. This means the war is eternal unless they surrender to The Star Fraction. A surrender contract you can be assured will be widely publicised and circulated. The minimum sum we're likely to accept from Mittani for a surrender will be 5 billion isk per active ally we have at the time of the surrender but we promise to invite the heads of all allied corporations into a channel to discuss and vote on such terms and division of spoils across all allies

We do however have a bit of a problem. We’re currently allied to the republic militias fighting against the Amarrian 24th Crusade and formally wardecced against both the Amarrian Imperium and the Caldari State – which rules our ships out of sensible combat options across the majority of hisec where the goons like the travel.

So we need more allies!





Does war continue or end now?







The Inferno 1.0 "escalated" war is over (that ended when CCP changed the war rules to prevent large scale defensive coalitions.) The incoming goon "grief war" (or whatever) will likely continue to the end of Eve since there is no way to force an attacker to drop a wardec whether they intend to fight it or not (and goonswarm have enough isk to maintain the wardec until the earth's sun shrivels up and the planet becomes a barren lump of ice.)

Presumably this was the intention of the 1.1 patch.






Ah yes thank you for explaining. Will Goons come to attack now seriously now your allies have been removed do you think : Will your corporation be destroyed?







I think whats most likely to happen is that "zim" and that other guy will keep posting on lots of forum threads while Goonswarm "ministry of love" stealth bombers keep running away actually. The problem with the Mittani's great plan was that his targets (in our case) actually like lowsec and consider it an ideal operating zone. Generally we only go to hisec to hunt wartargets (in our previous wars) so this one didn't really change the dynamic much.

What it does represent though is the war system is kinda pointless. 50m a week for an eternal war that neither side can win or lose definitively is precisely the kind of situation that the FW roundtable last fanfest told ccp they wanted to evolve out of. In the grand scheme of things I guess we say that the Inferno war system development cycle was a general failure with a couple of useful spin-offs (war record and in-game kill mails) but a lot of general bloat and bad decisions (2 week contracts, increased costs to wardec, nerfed ally system) being the lasting impact.

Of course it does represent a kind of "mission success" for Goonswarm - since they do like to ruin aspects of the game they are not very good at as a matter of principle.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Krystalline Meth
Doomheim
#395 - 2012-07-11 22:26:19 UTC
Werst Dendenahzees wrote:
Krystalline Meth wrote:



Ya gotta admit she has a turn of phrase gets a person a bit hot and bothered Oops


He*
e: *it



All due respect but I don't know whether you are man or woman, dog, ape or man-eating cactus either so a bit stupid to try and call somebody else it. Dunno if JAde is trolling you all or simply enjoys making you look foolish but shes a pretty big winner in this thread v0v.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#396 - 2012-07-11 23:05:50 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Generally we only go to hisec to hunt wartargets (in our previous wars) so this one didn't really change the dynamic much.

That's just as believable as when you claim that "[my] war caused mittani to whine to CCP to get them to change the wardec mechanics", i.e. not very.

Jade Constantine wrote:
What it does represent though is the war system is kinda pointless. 50m a week for an eternal war that neither side can win or lose definitively

Oh dear oh dear, close a few old loopholes (wardec evasion etc, increase basecosts to disincentivize willy-nilly wardecs for no reason), and everything's fine. Close a loophole which made wardecs all but worthless by allowing everyone and their dog to dogpile in on any war which has been opened to the public, and "the war system is kinda pointless".

Krystalline Meth wrote:
All due respect but I don't know whether you are man or woman, dog, ape or man-eating cactus either so a bit stupid to try and call somebody else it. Dunno if JAde is trolling you all or simply enjoys making you look foolish but shes a pretty big winner in this thread v0v.

Except for the fact he's been caught regurgitating "facts" which has been emphatically refuted, sometimes repeatedly, by various people who actually sit on the facts, weeks after the fact. Calling him out on it seems to only help for a page or two.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Krystalline Meth
Doomheim
#397 - 2012-07-12 00:04:39 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:

Except for the fact he's been caught regurgitating "facts" which has been emphatically refuted, sometimes repeatedly, by various people who actually sit on the facts, weeks after the fact. Calling him out on it seems to only help for a page or two.


I dunno what thread you are reading but its not the same as the one I'm seeing. Your arguments in particular don't make much sense Lord Zim and you really are trying too hard. The people against the wardec change are making a straightforward argument and you are trying to defend a rediculous concord charge that is applied just to protect your alliance. Sorry to be the one to break it 2 u but you aren't very good at forums mate.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#398 - 2012-07-12 00:25:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Krystalline Meth wrote:
The people against the wardec change are making a straightforward argument and you are trying to defend a rediculous concord charge

I guess you haven't seen the posts where I've said that this is the only thing about 1.1 which I'm not too sure about, but since the extent of impact for me is less evemails about wardec #325234 from privateer alliance etc, I'm inclined to not give a ****.

But then again, not reading what I actually say seems to be par for the course.

Krystalline Meth wrote:
that is applied just to protect your alliance.

See, this is exactly the "regurgitated facts" I'm talking about. This has been debunked by CCP, repeatedly.

Also :laffo: like we need protection from hisec.

Krystalline Meth wrote:
u

:catstare:

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Ben Youssef Noban
Doomheim
#399 - 2012-07-12 00:38:24 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Ben Youssef Noban wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Ben Youssef Noban wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Destruction Testing the New Wardec System (Ganks Included)

Okay here’s what I understand of the way wardecs work now with inferno. Entity X pays a fee to declare war against entity Y. This becomes a formal war. Entity Y has a couple of options at this point. It can:

a) Fight the war alone
b) Call for allies to fight the war
c) Offer a surrender to the aggressor

and

d) Double-down by declaring the war mutual.

Ways of finishing a war (again to my understanding)

1) Beat up the aggressor so they stop paying the war and the war ends (all allies go home)
2) Get beaten up by the aggressor, offer a surrender that the aggressor accepts (all allies go home)
3) Run away and hide so the aggressor gets bored and stops paying for the war anyway
4) Disband alliance / corp etc and skulk off like a yellow dog

Now these all really give the aggressor a bit too much power to either pay or stop paying and thus control their own involvement in the war. The aggressor could even run away and keep paying just to save face before claiming an accidental “oops we forgot to pay concord this week :shrug:” style excuse

So to the more interesting option in the new system making a war mutual.

By the text of the Inferno war blog it seems that if the war fee is zero (as it will be in mutual war) then the aggressor can no longer just :shrug: and forget to pay the bill they are stuck in the war as long as the defender wants them to be. This means the aggressor would have to propose a surrender contract that is accepted by the defending entity (and would presumably have to be worth quite a bit!)

Now originally in the Inferno war blog they said they didn’t know what to do about allies in a mutual war and discussed having the allies drop and barred from joining if the war is made mutual – but it seems CCP thought the better of that option (which is good because otherwise there is a huge advantage for a large power deccing a smaller one). I’ve tested making a war mutual, and adding allies to the war on top and the functionality works.

So to the destruction test of the new wardec system.

My alliance “The Star Fraction” has been wardecced by Goonswarm Federation. Presumably as part of Mittani’s “ministry of love/deathsquad” kneejerk against forum foes – but really the details don’t matter. Currently The Star Fraction is about 9000 members smaller than Goonswarm. The Goons have enough isk to maintain such a wardec for about ten million years so from their perspective would be eternal as long as they want it.

This didn’t sit well to my taste so I decided to make it mutual. This means the war is eternal unless they surrender to The Star Fraction. A surrender contract you can be assured will be widely publicised and circulated. The minimum sum we're likely to accept from Mittani for a surrender will be 5 billion isk per active ally we have at the time of the surrender but we promise to invite the heads of all allied corporations into a channel to discuss and vote on such terms and division of spoils across all allies

We do however have a bit of a problem. We’re currently allied to the republic militias fighting against the Amarrian 24th Crusade and formally wardecced against both the Amarrian Imperium and the Caldari State – which rules our ships out of sensible combat options across the majority of hisec where the goons like the travel.

So we need more allies!





Does war continue or end now?







The Inferno 1.0 "escalated" war is over (that ended when CCP changed the war rules to prevent large scale defensive coalitions.) The incoming goon "grief war" (or whatever) will likely continue to the end of Eve since there is no way to force an attacker to drop a wardec whether they intend to fight it or not (and goonswarm have enough isk to maintain the wardec until the earth's sun shrivels up and the planet becomes a barren lump of ice.)

Presumably this was the intention of the 1.1 patch.








I think whats most likely to happen is that "zim" and that other guy will keep posting on lots of forum threads while Goonswarm "ministry of love" stealth bombers keep running away actually. The problem with the Mittani's great plan was that his targets (in our case) actually like lowsec and consider it an ideal operating zone. Generally we only go to hisec to hunt wartargets (in our previous wars) so this one didn't really change the dynamic much.

What it does represent though is the war system is kinda pointless. 50m a week for an eternal war that neither side can win or lose definitively is precisely the kind of situation that the FW roundtable last fanfest told ccp they wanted to evolve out of. In the grand scheme of things I guess we say that the Inferno war system development cycle was a general failure with a couple of useful spin-offs (war record and in-game kill mails) but a lot of general bloat and bad decisions (2 week contracts, increased costs to wardec, nerfed ally system) being the lasting impact.

Of course it does represent a kind of "mission success" for Goonswarm - since they do like to ruin aspects of the game they are not very good at as a matter of principle.



I see now yes indeed. Thank you for detailed reply most enlightening; does seem shame such a problem comes because the bigger power doesn't like results of war. I find it hard to belief that Goons cannot win empire war though were they trying or did they maybe do stunt to remove Inferno war from the game itself?

I mean maybe you made mistake to taken them serious and fight so they could get wardec system removed from game (pardon my language if clumsy please)
Krystalline Meth
Doomheim
#400 - 2012-07-12 00:48:38 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:

But then again, not reading what I actually say seems to be par for the course.

u don't read too well yourself mate. Most of your posting is like you have your hands over your ears not listening to anyone else.
Quote:
See, this is exactly the "regurgitated facts" I'm talking about. This has been debunked by CCP, repeatedly.

:CCP: lol
Quote:
Also :laffo: like we need protection from hisec.

Surely looks like you called the wambulance when it wasn't going your way v0v