Warfare & Tactics

New players are generall on the receiving end of wardecs, not on the giving side of wardecs. If they're on the giving side, they're on the aggressive side, and they'll have absolutely no problems coping with an increase of 48m pr week.


Yes, let's hear how you've got anything to say about credibility.

So in your world newbies are aggressive enough to want to wardec other people, but if it costs a measly 48m/week more, which is peanuts when spread across more than one person, they'll go "welp didn't want that wardec anyways"?

Sounds to me like you're the one who needs to rethink your stance.


This thread? You mean the thread where I've bitchslapped you until you went from "I singlehandedly made goons whine to CCP until they changed the wardec mechanics" to "honda accord made goonswarm whine to CCP until they changed the wardec mechanics" to "but... but... WELL YOU DON'T KNOW WARDEC MECHANICS PRE OR POST INFERNO! SO THERE!".

Right.

You're just jealous of our successful application of communism.

Jade, the reason he's calling you out for lying about moon money income is because you either are horribly misinformed, or deliberately copying misinformation.

Goonfleet's finances are a fairly open book, and we've actually been chronically broke until somewhere around a year and a half ago. We didn't own Delve for most (almost any?) of the Neo/Dys/Prom R64 era. We fell into owning tech during the Tech era when TCF decided to move on and give us the space in Dek we'd been crashing with them in. Even then, the NC still controlled the majority of the tech until they fell last spring. Now, that tech is shared among OTEC entities, but even OTEC is an extremely new concept, dating back to April. OTEC is 'months', us having vastly profitable moon goo is 'a year and change'. We formed 5 years ago mining Crokite in a rented belt in Syndicate - hardly birth with a silver spoon in mouth.

At the moment, though, we're up, though honestly the difference between 2m and 50m is pretty small to all but the poorest of entities. A competent L4 mission runner could earn 50 in an hour, conceivably, as could 2-3 Hulks mining Scordite. For 2 weeks of war, that's really not that much cash. 500m is a bit more, but again, multiply those numbers by ten, for the prospect of hundreds of times the targets of a minimum cost wardec. The scaling isn't perfect, but still, either way, the first ally is still free, and the first war is still always affordable.

I'll agree with you that there's a difference in what mercs can accomplish differently between 'achieving an objective' and 'just running around shooting guys I guess', but that hits the crux of your arguments: you seem to think EVE wars have victory conditions.

EVE wars have never been about victory conditions except in an abstract sense that game mechanics don't (and won't) address. They're a formalized system of bribing the cops to look the other way while you shoot a guy. 'Victory' is simply an abstract where it becomes worth it for the other guy not to pay the war bill, or you no longer are a viable target (you have no assets to smash, your pilots are scattered, or you no longer whine on the forums). Alternately, denying your opponents kills by properly counter-forming, moving shop, playing in a different timezone, or other options all work as a way to 'win' a war.

Finally, RE: neutral freighters: I think Burn Jita says more about how GSF feels about this than I ever could - we'd love if freighters could be shot more easily, but for now we have a working solution.

Finally, I don't get this whole 'claim to fame' argument - your fame, Jade, was earned in work many would say would bring infamy. I'm not sure you're in a great position to cast stones.

We have like 4 billion isk in war bills a week from wardeccing -A- and pets, hope this helps.

You know exactly what has happened to goons the last 5 years, our disband 2 years ago (where we lost most of our resources) was highly public, our finances have been public. You know better, and you chose to lie and say we've "sucked down moongoo" for 5 years.

Besides, I'm not sure I would be throwing accusations of slander around too much if I were you.

As for Darius, he was right in saying we would still do better, simply because we were (and are) better at this than most others. As Kyle says, we didn't have much tech up until last spring, and we went from having nothing to being a proper powerhouse well before we got much tech. And as the NC showed so publicly, having tech doesn't automatically mean that you're invincible, you still have to actually be non-**** at this game, since they were still torn down by a coalition with what, 1/3rd their number, despite having been in the same space and "sucking down moongoo" for at least 4 years. Money doesn't win wars these days, morale, diplomacy, political savvy, numbers, skill, fleet comps and actual tenacity does.


Must I quote myself to get the truth out around you?

What I said was, and I quote, "New players are generally on the receiving end of wardecs, not on the giving side of wardecs. If they're on the giving side, they're on the aggressive side, and they'll have absolutely no problems coping with an increase of 48m pr week.".

There's nothing "can only be victims" about that statement, what I said was that most newbies who are involved in wardecs will be victims, not the aggressors, and those who are the aggressors are in the minority and are sufficiently aggressive and driven that 48m extra doesn't matter. Add to this the fact that a war'll cost a lot more than just the entrance fee, and you're dumb if you start a war when a dec fee of 50m is "too much to bear", because you're doing it wrong.

It's a non-issue.


Wars not having objectives specifically laid out in any in-game contract (such as taking out a POS, a POCO, harassing someone or defending someone) is a good thing, and I see little reason to pidgeon-hole war objectives and victory conditions in there.

The only aspect of inferno 1.1 which I'm not entirely sure of is the cost scaling of initiating wardecs. The only impact this has for anyone is mainly for those who wardecced literally all nullsec alliances the last few years more or less continuously, and camped the jita undock. I looked at our war history, and literally all of the wardecs I looked at prior to the wardec changes were from corps or alliances which spent all of their time (or at least a lot of time) wardeccing tons of random corps/alliances.

I'm inclined to say I don't care about those wardecs being "too expensive", since the main impact of this change for anyone in nullsec is that we get less evemail spam telling us we've been wardecced for the 517th time by privateer alliance or whomever, and that's mostly it. On the other hand, there's something to be said for culling people who haven't learned the lesson of using neutral alts yet. Whatever. vOv


Neutral alts doesn't necessarily mean NPC, none of my hisec alts are in NPC corps. Ejecting people from NPC corps after a month or two (or whatever hamfisted idea you've got to "fix" this) won't do squat, since you'd still have to find out who is a goon alt to wardec them in the first place.


Don't worry, you've made absolutely certain we all know what you're supposed to be infamous for. Being a "guerrilla-fighter" and an "underdog" isn't top of that list.

TL/DR: you got schooled and want to try to fob off facts.

As I said, I'm not sure about the cost scaling mechanic, but most hisec alliances/corps are well below 1000 characters, which means that you're not looking at "and 500m", you're looking at "less than 177m".


The 1.0 mechanics meant that everyone could get locked into a war for eternity, where one side pulled in god knows how many corps. This wasn't restricted to Jade's "solution", this was something which everyone declaring war potentially had to deal with, which means that declaring any war meant the risk of getting completely dumpstered in return.

1.1 removes this loophole, gives the defender the option to bring in extra help (to offset the fact the aggresser is often well-wersed in how hisec warfare works, whereas those who are most often are not), at a price, and it makes mutual wars a 1v1 (unless one of the sides decide to hire someone to add their own wardec into the mix).

How is this "bad" or "worse"?


This is a rumor which Jade has initiated and played for all it's worth, even though it's false and has been debunked by CCP, the CSM and us, repeatedly.

The changes were initiated by CCP in coordination with the CSM and merc corps, and they were initiated within a few days after inferno 1.0's release at most, because CCP had been told emphatically about the problems prior to release by literally everybody, and they were actually monitoring how players behaved with the new mechanics.

Would it make it easier for you to see through the goonhate if I removed "and us", or will you just go back to your usual "well the mittani hasn't publically said he didn't fear my war" fallacy?


No, the reality is that your claims from mount tinfoil have been thoroughly debunked, and your hate for goons are preventing you from admitting as much.

I'll take that as a "no", then.