EVE General Discussion

Thats alot of words to confirm you have no support for your argument.

I will agree that development resources are not infinitely divisible and have overhead costs. You will have to be more specific than that in regards to CCP and establishments before you will convince anyone that that is the problem.

My analogy can be explained thus: $10 is CCP development budget. Widget A is development cost for WIS, Widget B is development cost for FIS. Your analogy falls apart when you state that these are mutually exclusive. I'm saying that you need more support than simply stating it as such.

When someone says your point is lacking, you should sometimes defend rather than going on the offensive. Our ability to reach some agreeable conclusion will come much faster that way.

You said that there was a "$10 buy in" meaning that $5 packets were not availible, that was stating that the budgets were mutually exclusive.

Also, "go read some others posts" does not make good support.

I will contend that after 3 posts you have still not offered any support for your points, you concede the arguement regardless of your willingness to admit it.

ps. breaking down each point I make into a separate quote block would like to be left back in 2004 where you found it.

Only if your total budget is $10. If you want to claim that it is, then yes, they are indeed mutually exclusive.

The point here is that you are making the unsupported assumption that the division of labour you're proposing is at all possible. As this whole débâcle has show, that is not really the case. Anyone who has been reading the devblogs that have been published over the last couple of years on the topic of allocation of resources and workload won't be particularly surprised by this fact.
…aside from the reality that is before us and the long history behind it. Your unwillingness to research the matter is not a lack of proof. You, on the other hand, has nothing to support your arguments or assumptions.
Is good manners because it clearly connects each answer to the point that is being addressed.

So, really, the question is this: what do you base the idea that you can spend $5 on A and $5 on B on?

I assume you mean why did I say $10 as opposed to another amount?
I work in accounting and finance and when we set budgets we allocate different amounts to different projects, as does CCP:

http://eve-search.com/thread/1541173

CCP has a development budget and it can allocate based on large projects or small feature sets. Now things like personnel do come into play, but we don't have the insight to judge that ourselves. It could very likely be that I am wrong and they view these projects, WIS and FIS, as mutually exclusive, but based on my experience in budgets (which I will admit, is limited compared to some), I don't think its beyond the realm of possibility to do both.

Your "read some threads" idea of support has morphed into "read some dev blogs". It hasn't gotten any better. Which dev blogs? Which parts of these dev blogs? Quotes maybe?

The reason why quote blocks are not optimal is that, if we both use them, the thread becomes a mess and readability suffers.

No, I mean what do you base the idea that you can spend $5 on A and $5 on B on?
Considering how they have been treated so far, it seems increasingly likely that they are. Misunderstand me correctly: I agree with you — it's theoretically possible for a company to do two things at once, and CCP have previously shown that they can have two things in focus at the same time (expansions such as Trinity and Apocrypha showed this) — but the thing is that in recent years, they have just as apparently lost this ability (because they already have three things to juggle, perhaps, or maybe an internal change in development methodology?). From everything we've seen and been told, the resource allocation for EVE these days allows for one focus, perhaps with a few on-going tweaks and fixes at the side as long as those touch stuff that is already in the game.

Hence the question: where do you get the idea that we can get both A and B, especially when everything points to it not being possible?
Don't worry, it gets even better: go watch the fanfest presentations as well.
How so? If I can use them to respond to specific points in your posts, you can use them to respond to specific points in mine. It is abundantly clear which posts belongs to whom, and as long as you don't break the tags or overly pyramid-quote, they read as… you know… quotes.

…then again, my custom CSS creates far better post separation than the mess CCP put together, so maybe I'm just having an easier time than most in this regard.

Blahblahblah

Don't you ever get sick of forum posturing?

If CCP history is any indication this means you will never ever see any additional WiS. And it will be the strangest unfinished content experience ever. Most unfinished Eve content can go unnoticed unless you made the mistake of making it your primary focus. Most players for example aren't constantly reminded that FW was never finished, that POSs have been broken since they were introduced or that WHs never got all the content promised there. But every time we log in we will now be reminded of that "crazy idea CCP started on where you would actually be able to walk around in the stations". That thing they worked on for 5 years that delivered the only single character trapped in a single room experience in MMO history". The thing that makes the NEX store and their attempt at microtransactions the biggest face plant in next generatition of MMO revenue models.

What CCP doesn't get is the EXPERIENCE of walking in stations is the fun! We don't need "game play" there to make us just want to interact socially as avatars in a space station enviroment. For example, for me to just be able to meet with my corp in a large private meeting room would be fantastic. Give me some spacestation eye candy I can share with my friends and you can stop and ponder "game play" to make it better, but putting me in my uncustomizable CQ prison cell every log in just says "fail".

So sadly what I saw in the winter expansion list was already more than they can deliver (and they even implied more would be added to the list) so they did what we begged them not to do and set us up for dissappointment.

So this winter we get the balancing we should have gotten a year ago, improvments to FW (which can't amount to much in the short time they have), some capital nerfs that should have been in a patch not an expansion, some likely randomization of 0.0 by mucking with local and making SOV even more confusing.

Net effect to myself or the members of my alliance is no decernable changes. I expect that will really be what most Eve players ultimately get from this expansion.

I think what this really says is don't expect anything new or cool in Eve, because CCP can't commit to finishing anything. The moment someone starts to whine they rethink their plans and vision and chase a new random direction. Anything more than tweaking some constants in a table that determines, damage, timers, resists, yields, speeds or ranges is beyond their capabilites to deliver in a complete and functional manner.

They have too much on thier plate and the ability to focus that you'd expect from a kitten in a ball or yarn store. They still don't graps that loud voices in these forums or from a hand full of people elected by special interest groups do not reflect the actual player base.

Steve Jobs stated "It's really hard to design products by focus groups. A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them". I thought CCP got that once but it is clear now they don't have the steel the stick to their guns and deliver anyting other than what some screamy focus group whines for.

Eve will eventually die by committee. Right now I expect folks in CCP are meeting to decide what kind of fire we want..

"When you’ve been in marketing as long as I have, you'll know that before any new product can be developed it has to be properly researched. We’ve got to find out what people want from fire, how they relate to it, what sort of image it has for them."

And Eve freezes to death while they sort that out..

Issler

To each their own, but personally I vehemently disagree with this. If there is nothing to do in stations, not too many people will hang around there for long. Unless they come up with something really clever to do there- which I gather they haven't yet- then it would just be a big hole to pour dev time into that nobody would ever use.

It isn't that CCP doesn't get that some people want like a Second Lifeish dressup minigame where there is nothing to do built into eve. That is exactly what CCP was so certain of. They went charging in that direction over the strong objections of the majority of their player base. It turned out to be a total disaster for the company. That's what the CEO just issued a very sincere appology for- driving the game in exactly the direction you are pushing for.

You don't understand immersion and how important that is to a lot of us. At least let me and others "out that door" and to a gallery of the ship docking bay and let me have an "office" in my corp HQ where you can wander in and look at our recruiting adverts and a meeting room for my members with screens that have our corp anouncements. That would be plenty to start. Since CCP can't even find a way to make low sec more interesting in 8 years how long to till they all agree what constitutes meaningful game play in WiS and get around to delivering that?

Also, I think you miss that based on CCP's performance on completion, they will NEVER come back to it so long as they think it needs some sort of "gameplay" because from day to day they can't decide what this is.

This isn't FW not being finished, its being trapped in a cell by yourself every time you log in or all the time you need to be in a station. It will serve as a constant reminder that CCP can't deliver anything complete and at least functioning in a minimal manner. It basically says you can't trust them to deliver their vision in any meaningful way.

Issler

Honestly, I don't even get what you'd do in the stations without any gameplay? Role play?

It's not that I would be mad if such a feature existed. It would probably even make the game better. But IMO if there is nothing to do there it would make the game better by such a narrow margin that it couldn't possibly be worth the development time. Now, again, my hope is that they do come up with something cool to do there and they do build it. But if they aren't really sure that they have a rock solid idea for something you can do in the stations that has wide support of the user base, I don't see how it could be at the top of their queue.



This part I do identify with. It feels weirdly like you're trapped in a claustrophobic space in the stations at the moment. I turned off the station environment for that reason. But IMO that isn't an argument for why CCP should plung ahead releasing a half backed WiS, it is an example of why that approach is a bad idea.