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FW: I-hub and system upgrades

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Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#101 - 2012-06-25 00:28:07 UTC
The upgrades in and of themselves are underwhelming for the reasons mentioned above. They do tend to be mostly for non-FW industrialists. Have we seen any such pilots moving out to low sec to take advantage of them? Even the reduced medical clone costs are meh - you don't get podded as often in low sec.

Any monetary reward given by the upgrades has to compete w/ the LP store. So if we gave an upgrade for better rats, for example, it would have to compete with a Tier 4/5 LP store. Upgrades right now are just a means to get that better store.

Rehashing this thread the most promising things seem to be: Reduced repair costs and a temporary cyno jammer. There's also a possiblity of better industrialist benefits. This is fine and good but it seems awful thin for a brain storming session.

1) Some things I come across in my FW life is security status. Pirates shoot at me and often times I have to shoot back. My sec status is constantly bouncing between -4.0 and -5.0. It would be nice if ratting built up my sec status faster. That would be an interesting upgrade.

2) Military upgrades. Take a problem and make it a feature. Upgrade the rats in your plexes of your system. Make it harder to take a plex. This can be used to address steamrolling and plexing draining system upgrades.

3) Bonuses/penalties similar to wormholes or incursions.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#102 - 2012-06-25 04:25:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
@Zarnak:

1. Mind if I do a more advanced version of that? Smile
Sec. gain made exclusive to low-sec. One of the FW system upgrades is to increase said gain by increasing rat bounty .. would make FW turf the best place to rat sec. back up and militia's do so enjoy having more to shoot.
NB: Increasing bounty and not the rat itself allows 'ratters' to stay small and use PvP fits/ships thus increasing the likelihood of a "Good Time™".

2. Would only make sense if rat destruction becomes a requirement. Since plex capture is time(r) based, it makes better sense to have each level of upgrade (5 at present I believe) add one minute to all timers for attackers and remove one minute for defenders.
- Attacking an upgraded system will take longer until upgrades are whittled down while defending said systems would be easier provided one starts doing so ASAP.
NB: Would need some sort of delay before 'fresh' LP are applied to upgrade status or a defender could keep system uncontested by spamming BCs in major (at medium speed (-5 minutes) and adding LP immediately.

3. Similar perhaps, but you hopefully don't want the same magnitude .. would make attacking upgraded systems a royal pain and make every attack require an even bigger blob (no reships). Keep in mind that upgrades are bought with LP which are abundant to say the least, which I suspect is why CCP opted for such weak upgrade bonuses to begin with.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2012-06-25 07:11:05 UTC
Really not seeing people make use of the upgrade system.

Can’t help but feel that it needs to be harder to reduce the upgrade level.

More direct benefits need to be introduced.

I still feel linking NPC difficulty to upgrade level is an option.

LP rewards increase with warzone control but how about increasing LP rewards for PVP kills dependant on system upgrade level. (I am aware of the market manipulation exploit but this needs fixing separately) This would allow a faction that has fewer systems to reap greater rewards defensively (through ship kills) on a local basis.

Defensive plexing could occur at an accelerated time rate with higher upgrade levels. This does make it easier to defend key upgraded systems, but systems already vulnerable which should have a lower system upgrade level are still harder to defend.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2012-06-25 07:17:35 UTC
If the system upgrade level is not going to be more stable, then the industrial benefits need be modified to be a bit more fixed.

On a weekly (or monthly) basis the average upgrade level could be calculated and the industrial upgrades provided for the following week (month). This prevents the industrial reward being just available on a snapshot basis.

This could be reset if the system falls, or not and the enemy faction could reap the reward of an invested system for a short time.

This could actually be rolled out to other upgrades.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#105 - 2012-06-25 07:22:07 UTC
Not sure if this belongs here but

Would it be possible to have an indication on the direction of movement of the % contested, say a small red up arrow or down green arrow indicating whether the percentage last moved up or down?

This does give small amount of Intel regarding systems being offensively defensively plexed.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2012-06-25 07:31:34 UTC

Given that all the rewards are for offensive plexing then I feel the contested percentage should naturally dissipate over time.

Making these comments it also occurs to me that it seems difficult to tie system upgrade level with offensive benefits rather than defensive benefits, perhaps there should be flow through to adjacent systems, if an adjacent system is under enemy control then there could be increased PVP kill rewards in the adjacent system % increase linked to upgrade level, this may encourage upgrading of border systems.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#107 - 2012-06-25 12:05:31 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
@Zarnak:

2. Would only make sense if rat destruction becomes a requirement. Since plex capture is time(r) based, it makes better sense to have each level of upgrade (5 at present I believe) add one minute to all timers for attackers and remove one minute for defenders.
- Attacking an upgraded system will take longer until upgrades are whittled down while defending said systems would be easier provided one starts doing so ASAP.
NB: Would need some sort of delay before 'fresh' LP are applied to upgrade status or a defender could keep system uncontested by spamming BCs in major (at medium speed (-5 minutes) and adding LP immediately.


This really jumps out at me as a great idea.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#108 - 2012-06-25 15:40:31 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
@Zarnak:

2. Would only make sense if rat destruction becomes a requirement. Since plex capture is time(r) based, it makes better sense to have each level of upgrade (5 at present I believe) add one minute to all timers for attackers and remove one minute for defenders.
- Attacking an upgraded system will take longer until upgrades are whittled down while defending said systems would be easier provided one starts doing so ASAP.
NB: Would need some sort of delay before 'fresh' LP are applied to upgrade status or a defender could keep system uncontested by spamming BCs in major (at medium speed (-5 minutes) and adding LP immediately.


This really jumps out at me as a great idea.



I'm just not sure why we would do this. The current lp/plex system seems to be working quite well. (Yes there are other issues in faction war that need work but this particular part seems to be great.)

The main reward for upgrading a system is your lp costs are cut in half or even in one quarter! That is a great benefit that is well worth fighting for. Therefore the fact that the other benefits are pretty "meh" is not really a problem.

The caldari and gallente front have about 20 systems vulnerable. It's hard to see this as anything other than large storm clouds which will eventually break to a huge storm of intense fighting spread out over 20 sytems.

Amarr can easilly make a comeback - assuming we stop fighting eachother. LOL.

I guess I don't see why people are continually making suggestions to change the part of this faction war system that actually seems to be working well.

Let's focus on getting ccp to fix the parts that are a known problems like unbalanced rats, bugs, plexing alts, and the issue of it being a pve activity in general. These are the major issues that need to be addressed lets keep ccp focused on those.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#109 - 2012-06-25 15:52:20 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
@Zarnak:

2. Would only make sense if rat destruction becomes a requirement. Since plex capture is time(r) based, it makes better sense to have each level of upgrade (5 at present I believe) add one minute to all timers for attackers and remove one minute for defenders.
- Attacking an upgraded system will take longer until upgrades are whittled down while defending said systems would be easier provided one starts doing so ASAP.
NB: Would need some sort of delay before 'fresh' LP are applied to upgrade status or a defender could keep system uncontested by spamming BCs in major (at medium speed (-5 minutes) and adding LP immediately.


This really jumps out at me as a great idea.



I'm just not sure why we would do this. The current lp/plex system seems to be working quite well. (Yes there are other issues in faction war that need work but this particular part seems to be great.)

The main reward for upgrading a system is your lp costs are cut in half or even in one quarter! That is a great benefit that is well worth fighting for. Therefore the fact that the other benefits are pretty "meh" is not really a problem.

The caldari and gallente front have about 20 systems vulnerable. It's hard to see this as anything other than large storm clouds which will eventually break to a huge storm of intense fighting spread out over 20 sytems.

Amarr can easilly make a comeback - assuming we stop fighting eachother. LOL.

I guess I don't see why people are continually making suggestions to change the part of this faction war system that actually seems to be working well.

Let's focus on getting ccp to fix the parts that are a known problems like unbalanced rats, bugs, plexing alts, and the issue of it being a pve activity in general. These are the major issues that need to be addressed lets keep ccp focused on those.


I suggest it because it's a way to add some ying into too much yang. Imagine if upgrading a system to +5 meant that the enemy militia had to spend an extra five minutes on a button as well as had to fight harder rats to clear that plex. Imagine that the defending miltia had to spend five minutes less on a plex to defend a system. Systems would be upgraded all the time, even at tier 1!

Now imagine that we had a new aspect to upgrades as well - the higher your warzone control tier, the more expensive it is to upgrade a system. Think of it as the LP store in reverse. Amarr, at tier one, would have to spend 37.5k LP to upgrade a system to 5 and get all the benefits above mentioned. Minmatar, which bounces between Tier 3-5, would have to spend 150k, 300k, or 600k to upgrade their systems.

If you eliminate running Caldari plexes for Minmatar LP, as well as missions in controlled systems - you have added a seesaw that will eventually lead to a back and forth fight. The winning side would have to defend more systems and compete for less LP that needs to do more. It would address steam rolling as well as week old farmers.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#110 - 2012-06-25 16:05:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
@Zarnak:

2. Would only make sense if rat destruction becomes a requirement. Since plex capture is time(r) based, it makes better sense to have each level of upgrade (5 at present I believe) add one minute to all timers for attackers and remove one minute for defenders.
- Attacking an upgraded system will take longer until upgrades are whittled down while defending said systems would be easier provided one starts doing so ASAP.
NB: Would need some sort of delay before 'fresh' LP are applied to upgrade status or a defender could keep system uncontested by spamming BCs in major (at medium speed (-5 minutes) and adding LP immediately.


This really jumps out at me as a great idea.



I'm just not sure why we would do this. The current lp/plex system seems to be working quite well. (Yes there are other issues in faction war that need work but this particular part seems to be great.)

The main reward for upgrading a system is your lp costs are cut in half or even in one quarter! That is a great benefit that is well worth fighting for. Therefore the fact that the other benefits are pretty "meh" is not really a problem.

The caldari and gallente front have about 20 systems vulnerable. It's hard to see this as anything other than large storm clouds which will eventually break to a huge storm of intense fighting spread out over 20 sytems.

Amarr can easilly make a comeback - assuming we stop fighting eachother. LOL.

I guess I don't see why people are continually making suggestions to change the part of this faction war system that actually seems to be working well.

Let's focus on getting ccp to fix the parts that are a known problems like unbalanced rats, bugs, plexing alts, and the issue of it being a pve activity in general. These are the major issues that need to be addressed lets keep ccp focused on those.


I suggest it because it's a way to add some ying into too much yang. Imagine if upgrading a system to +5 meant that the enemy militia had to spend an extra five minutes on a button as well as had to fight harder rats to clear that plex. Imagine that the defending miltia had to spend five minutes less on a plex to defend a system. Systems would be upgraded all the time, even at tier 1!

Now imagine that we had a new aspect to upgrades as well - the higher your warzone control tier, the more expensive it is to upgrade a system. Think of it as the LP store in reverse. Amarr, at tier one, would have to spend 37.5k LP to upgrade a system to 5 and get all the benefits above mentioned. Minmatar, which bounces between Tier 3-5, would have to spend 150k, 300k, or 600k to upgrade their systems.


If you eliminate running Caldari plexes for Minmatar LP, as well as missions in controlled systems - you have added a seesaw that will eventually lead to a back and forth fight. The winning side would have to defend more systems and compete for less LP that needs to do more. It would address steam rolling as well as week old farmers.


The first paragraph gives an advantage to the side with more systems. The second paragraph gives a disadvantage to the side with more systems. I just don't see what this accomplishes.

The third paragraph is a different change which means we can no longer plex for our allies? I am not sure I like that change.

Right now we already have a system that will seesaw - assuming both sides actually use strategies based on the game mechanics.

Week old farmers can still farm plexes with your proposal.

Edit: I'm sure I am just not getting what the problem is. Do you think the system won't seesaw now? I think the no lp for dplexing should do the trick.

Do you think people should have to try to keep theier systems upgraded for longer periods of time? If so, why? How will doing that make the game better?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#111 - 2012-06-25 16:33:07 UTC
I'll start with my third paragraph. If I as an Amarrian militiaman plex Gallente plexes, then I should be rewarded with Caldari LP. Right now there are hordes of pilots running Caldari plexes in exchange for Minmatar LP. The system should be closed end in order to truly regulate. Otherwise it's kind of like having a counterfeit money machine in the basement. To answer your question, - in this regard the seesaw is broken.

The upgrades right now are ONLY there for the LP store. This thread is about how to make upgrades more appealing and worthwhile. My suggestions improve the seesaw.

Let's say the Amarr have 10 systems. We are at Tier 1. We capture Oyonata. (yes, I know we own it right now.) We spend 37.5k LP to upgrade it to Tier 5. We spend another 37.5K to buffer it for a total of 75k LP spent. To the enemy it still takes 150k LP to get through the buffer and 150k LP to tear through the upgrades. This makes taking it for the Minmatar longer, harder, more difficult, ect. It makes defending it easier.

Now say the Minmatar take it back. They are at Tier 4. In order for them to 'harden' the system, it costs 300k for upgrades and 300k for a buffer. The Amarr only take 150k and 150k LP to burn through buffer and upgrades. On the other side of the world, both Caldari and Gallente can't get beyond Tier 1 or 2 due to the sheer number of plexers. Hardening some systems would allow at least a base to develop.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#112 - 2012-06-25 18:15:38 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
I'll start with my third paragraph. If I as an Amarrian militiaman plex Gallente plexes, then I should be rewarded with Caldari LP. Right now there are hordes of pilots running Caldari plexes in exchange for Minmatar LP. The system should be closed end in order to truly regulate. Otherwise it's kind of like having a counterfeit money machine in the basement. To answer your question, - in this regard the seesaw is broken.


I am not really sure about this. Right now if you are in the minmatar militia and you want to plex for lp you would go to the caldari gallente front. That means that there are fewer people plexing in the amarr front and amarr can have an easier time to make a comeback on the occupancy front.


Zarnak Wulf wrote:

The upgrades right now are ONLY there for the LP store. This thread is about how to make upgrades more appealing and worthwhile. ....


This is true.

I guess I am wondering if we need to make upgrades more appealing. If they are going to keep the station lock out (which I ould prefer they got rid of altogether) I guess that would make them more appealing.

But I don't see the problem really. The upgrades are required if you want tier 5. Tier 5 is very appealing already.

Zarnak Wulf wrote:

Let's say the Amarr have 10 systems. We are at Tier 1. We capture Oyonata. (yes, I know we own it right now.) We spend 37.5k LP to upgrade it to Tier 5. We spend another 37.5K to buffer it for a total of 75k LP spent. To the enemy it still takes 150k LP to get through the buffer and 150k LP to tear through the upgrades. This makes taking it for the Minmatar longer, harder, more difficult, ect. It makes defending it easier.

Now say the Minmatar take it back. They are at Tier 4. In order for them to 'harden' the system, it costs 300k for upgrades and 300k for a buffer. The Amarr only take 150k and 150k LP to burn through buffer and upgrades. On the other side of the world, both Caldari and Gallente can't get beyond Tier 1 or 2 due to the sheer number of plexers. Hardening some systems would allow at least a base to develop.


This just seems to make the war more stagnant and slow with fewer big climactic shifts.

The gallente or caldari could get beyond tier 1 or 2 but they are actually playing the game smart and waiting for the right moment before they go flipping systems. The current rules gives each side more to consider beside "flip the system next us and upgrade it and then do the same with the system next to that etc." The strategy in such a system is so basic its hard to even call it a strategy.

Under the current mechanics amarr should not be flipping any systems right now. This is no secret. We should be getting them vulnerable like the gallente and caldari and then make a large push to take us up to tier 5. Of course, it would help if we could agree not to fight eachother let alone agree on an overall strategy.

I guess I am just thinking we should give the current system a try, before we ask ccp to change the rules so our simplistic strategy starts to work.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#113 - 2012-06-26 13:33:07 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:

Any monetary reward given by the upgrades has to compete w/ the LP store. So if we gave an upgrade for better rats, for example, it would have to compete with a Tier 4/5 LP store. Upgrades right now are just a means to get that better store.

Rehashing this thread the most promising things seem to be: Reduced repair costs and a temporary cyno jammer. There's also a possiblity of better industrialist benefits. This is fine and good but it seems awful thin for a brain storming session.



The lp store benefits are more than enough to make the upgrades worthwhile.

With so many other things that are wrong with faction war I think the best response is to tell ccp they are barking up the wrong tree with this thread.

Reducing repair costs wont really do anything worthwhile for faction war as a whole.

Cyno jammers - I see just as many negatives as positives, and a whole lot of work for ccp. That work could be better spent making the plexing game less of a pve grind and balancing the rats etc.










Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#114 - 2012-06-26 19:31:21 UTC
Upgrades notify a militia of an individual plexing in a system. Upgrades cause the contestation of a system to decay over time. The upgrade status of the system determines the pace and timing of the ideas above.
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#115 - 2012-07-03 05:19:38 UTC
This has been said before, but bears repeating: warzone control should be worth less (or rather, less exaggerated from its baseline), and individual upgraded systems should be worth more. Plenty of excellent ideas have already been put forth as to specific system upgrades, so I won’t bother offering anything there.

The problem is that with the current set up, there is little reason to defend a system unless it is a staging system. Unless the loss or gain of a system prevents or enables you from moving up a tier, the benefit is all in the taking and not in the having or keeping. This is completely bass ackwards in my opinion. Having a Level Five system should be awesome in and of itself, even your militia as a whole is getting its ship pushed in. While taking a system should be a very nice windfall for the conquering militia, it should not be their primary source of income. As is, there is little reason not to ball up in staging systems like Kourmonen, or Kamela as there is nothing to be gained from occupying other systems.

Fakeedit: I do have an idea for a tiered upgrade. NPC pirate bounty and sec status gain multiplier for friendly militia based upon upgrade level (hardly orginal, but w/e). Also, while I like the idea of military upgrades, I don’t want things that emphasize the PVE aspect of FW. Maybe something that increases the amount decontested for defensive plexing?
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#116 - 2012-07-10 18:39:38 UTC
Just wanted to point out that we had a good talk amongst various militia leaders this weekend, you can listen to the full podcast and discuss what you heard in the linked thread. Enjoy!

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#117 - 2012-07-11 05:24:40 UTC
Neuts should not get any gain from Militia upgrades.

If anything - neutrals should pay a penalty to use the stations services. The penalty should be directly converted into LP and dumped into the iHub. This gives the system holder a form of payment for their work and stops the leeches gaining for no work.

The tier system is far too extreme on both ends of the scale. Tier 1 and 5 should simply be removed - leaving 3 workable tiers.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#118 - 2012-07-11 06:25:57 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:
When a system goes vulnerable, it should no longer spawn plexes for people to continue farming. There is a Gallente system that has been vulnerable for a week and WTs continue to farm it into perpetuity because of the spawns. No one cares to defensive plex it because it's a stationless system that leads into a nullsec entrance. Conversely, I can understand why the enemy doesn't want to capture it either. But if this is the case, then plexes shouldn't continue to spawn.


Was kinda hoping no one would mention this. Smile

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#119 - 2012-07-11 12:55:30 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
Neuts should not get any gain from Militia upgrades.

If anything - neutrals should pay a penalty to use the stations services. The penalty should be directly converted into LP and dumped into the iHub. This gives the system holder a form of payment for their work and stops the leeches gaining for no work.



I'm not entirely sure what you mean here.

I think having neutrals in low sec pay penalties for using any station in fw low sec is a pretty bad idea.

I think the best way to do this is limit the no docking rule to the actual militia stations. Allow only miliitia to dock there and give great benefits.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#120 - 2012-07-13 06:10:38 UTC
Cearain wrote:
IbanezLaney wrote:
Neuts should not get any gain from Militia upgrades.

If anything - neutrals should pay a penalty to use the stations services. The penalty should be directly converted into LP and dumped into the iHub. This gives the system holder a form of payment for their work and stops the leeches gaining for no work.



I'm not entirely sure what you mean here.

I think having neutrals in low sec pay penalties for using any station in fw low sec is a pretty bad idea.

I think the best way to do this is limit the no docking rule to the actual militia stations. Allow only miliitia to dock there and give great benefits.


You are not sure what I mean but you think what you are unsure about is a bad idea........ lol.

Congrats on a post that isn't a wall of text.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney