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Planetary Defense?

Author
Viktor Fyretracker
Emminent Terraforming
#1 - 2012-06-19 05:21:43 UTC
This is more of a strange question but what sorts of systems would a well populated planet have outside of orbital systems for self defense? Figuring any ship even as small as a cruiser can fire kiloton yield missiles, there must be something to keep a pilot from going postal and nuking a city for the lolz.

As such I am wondering are there systems like Planetary Shielding? large STO gun batteries(XXXL Beam Lasers? Twisted ), And of course being able to re-purpose the entire transmitter capabilities of a planet into the biggest ECM battery in history.

EVE is like swimming on a beach in shark infested waters,  There is however a catch...  The EVE Beach you also have to wonder which fellow swimmer will try and eat you before the sharks.

Mithfindel
Zenko Incorporated
#2 - 2012-06-19 09:21:45 UTC
There's little that is mentioned in Prime Fiction. Getting from planet to space is considered very difficult in EVE (or was at least during the early run of the game, PI might have changed that), so one might expect to see more on the lines of orbital defenses, such as loads of drones and automated or manned batteries. Of course, there's the ground-to-orbit cannons that are apparently designed for DUST 514, essentially doomsday devices mounted on a building.

And if we assume "real" conditions instead of submarine physics, anyone with an MWD would be very, very dangerous. Essentially buffer tank a ship against thermal and perhaps kinetic damage, fly the ship towards the planet and let gravity take care of the rest.
Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2012-06-19 10:50:01 UTC
Why thermal and kinetic?
Publius Valerius
AirGuard
LowSechnaya Sholupen
#4 - 2012-06-19 11:07:26 UTC
Qvar Dar'Zanar wrote:
Why thermal and kinetic?


You could also maybe count in magnatic.... I think if you enter the a planet... you will/must cross magnatic field lines... which are around the planet (the geomagnetic field).... maybe some plantes have stronger ones.... and it would mean electric induction when you fly tru them..... but its very, very off topic P

I would love to have those classes ingame. See here:

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/376566/march-07-2011/joshua-foer

Mithfindel
Zenko Incorporated
#5 - 2012-06-19 12:42:27 UTC
Qvar Dar'Zanar wrote:
Why thermal and kinetic?


Thermal: Heat shield
Kinetic: It doesn't matter whether you're throwing particles to an armour plate or shield (i.e. blasters) or throwing the said armour plate / shield to a shield of particles at a very high speed (ship entering athmosphere at a very high speed).

On another forum there was discussion about a "torchship"* impacting a planet. At high speeds, the ship will pretty much disintegrate upon entering the athmosphere, and the residue particles will toast the planet. (At that point, the ship mass becomes pretty much the deciding factor. Required velocity is fractions of c, so in EVE's submarine universe, such speeds are not possible, therefore requiring a universe where "more realistic" physics exist.)

Considering that our current spaceships do not seem to have problems penetrating Van Allen belts, EM damage type might not be significant (not sure how this would work at significantly higher speeds, but at that distance a hit would be almost unavoidable). Of course, for planets with highly magnetic cores, this might heat the ship enough to cause more rapid disintegration.

In any case, in EVE orbital attacks happen with weapons instead of kamikaze ships (well, there's one event of an unguided carrier-sized projectile being used against Gallente Prime in the Prime Fiction).

*) A torchship is a theoretical slower-than-light spaceship capable of "torching" or accelerating at a great pace for extended periods of time, possibly to a low fractions of c velocity.
Esna Pitoojee
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#6 - 2012-06-19 18:25:51 UTC
In terms of the four major empires, I think there is a view that any sort of planet-killing action is the metaphorical "nuclear bomb" of New Eden - you dare not deploy it against an enemy with the capability of returning the favor, for fear that they will promptly do so. The only large-scale planetwide bombardments I can think of - the bombardment of Caldari Prime during the first Caldari-Gallente war, and the bombardment of various Amarrian and Ammatar planets by the invading Elder Fleet - were both undertaken against an enemy viewed as incapable for various reasons of mounting a coordinated counterstrike.

Beyond that limit, however, 'planetkillers' have often been utilized by outlaw and terrorist forces - for instance, the Equilibrium of Mankind firing an Avatar's doomsday device in close orbit to Reschard V, or the Blood Raider Covenant releasing large quantities of Insorum - a potent neurotoxin for those not infected with the Vitoxin - over an Amarrian planet in a show of force (an act that would be later replicated with more specific objectives by the invading Elder Fleet).




Once we step off the level of weapons capable of causing planet-wide destruction, however, tactical orbital bombardment is a widespread and common tactic with no apparent defense beyond "more armor". Indeed, the Gallente 'Crystal Boulevard' was constructed with the primary purpose of forming a barrier which could not be removed without the use of a weapon with planet-wide consequences.


How CONCORD keeps capsuleers from just up and bombarding planets is unclear.
Charles Baker
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-06-19 18:45:07 UTC
Indeed, considering the Caldari Titan in orbit of Caldari Prime has it's doomsday locked onto the Gallente Homeworld (incase we try anything) i think we can safely assume (from the fiction regarding it) that Titan doomsday weapons can as the story says 'Glass' a planet, how one would defend against such a weapon however thats another story.
Viktor Fyretracker
Emminent Terraforming
#8 - 2012-06-19 20:39:07 UTC
defense would be planetary class shielding if the tech exists.

glassing a planet is a scary simple task in a scifi setting with nifty scifi weapons of big flashy boomyness....
considering in reality with 1960s/1970s nuclear weapons the US and Russia could have glassed Earth several times over on their own.

EVE is like swimming on a beach in shark infested waters,  There is however a catch...  The EVE Beach you also have to wonder which fellow swimmer will try and eat you before the sharks.

Mithfindel
Zenko Incorporated
#9 - 2012-06-21 07:58:23 UTC
Weapons in the EVE setting are a few degrees more scary than all the real life nuclear arsenal this far in existence put together. Tachyon beams can literally dig canyons and crush planets into tectonically unstable molten slag after a concentrated bombardment. Our current nuclear missiles don't really even put a dent (though admitted, nuclear missiles in athmosphere are more effective as airburst, using them to dig down underground in a kind of a massed use of nuclear bunker busters might be able to do a nice hole in the ground).
Synthmilk
The United Peoples of Synth
#10 - 2012-06-24 23:43:48 UTC
Well there is a Chronicle that outright states any old Capsuleer can lock onto any point on a planet they want and fire on it. The planet in question is Chesiette Prime, located in Federation LowSec, on the Gallente-Amarr border Xenocracy.

The planet has a population of ~1 Billion, and an apparently thriving economy, combined with it's location in low security space, implies it should have some sort of ground based planetary defence network.

The only times however that I have seen mention of ground based defence networks in the fiction are the militia forces on Caldari Prime from Empyrean Age, and the military outpost in the book Templar One, I don't recall the planet the outpost is on at the moment.

Neither of the books described planetary scale shields, or even facility level shields. I vaguely recall the existence of anti-missile systems. Otherwise, the primary defensive measure planet side is the ground to orbit weapons, which appear to take on at least two types, going by what was described in Templar One and what is seen in DUST 514.

In Templar One, we see a system intended to take out ships as they are entering the upper atmosphere to make a weapons run. The system consists of missiles that detonate above the target ship, causing a shock wave that is intended to forcibly de-orbit the ship. The system appears to be powerful enough that it's existence on the surface is sufficient deterrent against any size of ship making a weapons run. The DUST system appear to be a Doomsday scale energy weapon able to take out ships in high orbit.

However with the advent of DUST, it seems that CONCORD is stepping in and introducing safeguards against wanton orbital bombardment by preventing ships from targeting ground facilities without a spotter on the ground to call in a strike.

Personally, I just assume that like comm channels, sovereignty, sec status and War, targeting systems on Capsuleer ships are controlled and monitored by CONCORD, preventing everything from a sensor lock, to individual weapons being unable to point at things CONCORD doesn't want Capsuleers to blow up. In that chronicle for example, the Capsuleer and the planetary government had a contract, which apparently if the government failed to uphold it's end, the Capsuleer was free to do as he wish to get what was agreed upon, including mass murder (Though Capsuleers seem to have a licence to mass murder, as there is rarely a warning against destroying civilian space structures other than Stations). Or, it's a LowSec planet and nobody beyond the planets inhabitants really care so there are no protections in place.
Viktor Fyretracker
Emminent Terraforming
#11 - 2012-06-25 00:12:23 UTC
I guess until Dust the lore just did not consider planets too much. Guessing as we learn more and more about what Dust adds to the game things like facility shields might pop up. If anything shielding either at the planetary scale or the facility level would certainly give objectives to take/hold from an enemy force.


Actually I think the best defense for planets would be something that could pretty much instapop a ship that gets into range. Naturally planets have no limit on power usage so they are not as limited as ship based systems. couple that with STO warp probe launchers and systems to scramble the pod jump frequencies and a planet would become rather unattractive to attack.

by scrambling pod jump frequencies I pretty much mean making it so the brain scan never gets anywhere, I would bet that frequency can be jammed.

EVE is like swimming on a beach in shark infested waters,  There is however a catch...  The EVE Beach you also have to wonder which fellow swimmer will try and eat you before the sharks.

Synthmilk
The United Peoples of Synth
#12 - 2012-06-25 00:51:11 UTC
Viktor Fyretracker wrote:
I guess until Dust the lore just did not consider planets too much. Guessing as we learn more and more about what Dust adds to the game things like facility shields might pop up. If anything shielding either at the planetary scale or the facility level would certainly give objectives to take/hold from an enemy force.


Actually I think the best defense for planets would be something that could pretty much instapop a ship that gets into range. Naturally planets have no limit on power usage so they are not as limited as ship based systems. couple that with STO warp probe launchers and systems to scramble the pod jump frequencies and a planet would become rather unattractive to attack.

by scrambling pod jump frequencies I pretty much mean making it so the brain scan never gets anywhere, I would bet that frequency can be jammed.


Actually as far as I am aware there is no technology in EVE to "jam" quantum entanglement communications. In addition, I believe the whole quantum entanglement thing is a retcon, I think they relied on "subspace" for interstellar comms and the transfer of capsuleer consciousnesses in the past...
I'm 5particus
REV0LTING
#13 - 2012-06-25 09:54:54 UTC

In Templar One, the planetary defence installations shoot down a Titan that gets close despite being ravaged by years of attrition.



Synthmilk
The United Peoples of Synth
#14 - 2012-06-25 15:23:21 UTC
I'm 5particus wrote:

In Templar One, the planetary defence installations shoot down a Titan that gets close despite being ravaged by years of attrition.


Dreadnought, not Titan.