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Paving the way to the next nerf: hulks
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#141 - 2012-06-23 05:37:03 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
The procurer is more expensive then the Maller


Stop lying.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#142 - 2012-06-23 05:55:08 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
The procurer is more expensive then the Maller


Stop lying.


Huh, I was wrong. Welp. (When I tell you to stop lying, it's only after you've been corrected on a factual point and you bring your factually inaccurate point up again)

You gonna address the fact that you called Carnegie-Mellon University "suspicious"?

Point still stands regarding a new bait ship. So?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#143 - 2012-06-23 07:10:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
RubyPorto wrote:
Point still stands regarding a new bait ship. So?


That's fine, if you let me do pve/hauling in my ceptor or force recon.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#144 - 2012-06-23 07:13:24 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Point still stands regarding a new bait ship. So?


That's fine, if you let me do pve/hauling in my ceptor or force recon.


1) Pirate Epic arcs were pretty much designed for Ceptors

2) Force recons are great for high value cargo. They cloak and have the EHP to survive most smartbomb attacks.

3) What makes CMU suspect in your eyes?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#145 - 2012-06-24 08:48:25 UTC
I personally love the changes, although I hope the Hulk does not get ignored altogether, or the price drops tremendously on it.

The high sec pirate vs carebear argument is one that may never get truly settled. I don't think most (at least myself and most of the ones I know personally) of the miners have a problem with someone managing to suicide gank them, or having a chance to. The problem lies in the exploits that are used to do it using some of the current game mechanics. ;P

I had a Hurricane show up and nuke the hell out of me last year while my hands were full changing the baby, I never got the chance to even try and react, although I doubt i would have been able to anyway. His ship got blown to hell, he actually lost a bit of money (had some decent t2 gear on it), and complimented me on my tank (not that it did any good. Took i think 2 broadsides to drop me), and we chatted for a bit. This happens, and it keeps me on my toes, and the game interesting.

However, when someone is able to spend just a few million, load up a dessie, and pop billion dollar ships at leisure, or manages to sucker newer players into the bait and switch (having an Orca with a fighting upgrade close by to jump in), with no challenge, major penalty, or any real price to pay, then they (and I ) get a bit more upset. 0.0 and Low sec this becomes much less of an issue, because the exploit is not present (they can just nuke the Orca, for example, or hunt down and just start firing at any known flippers / suiciders in zone).

I like the idea of the bigger exhumers also having more EHP, however, I think they should not have as much TANK as the mack, etc (high health, low armor). That would solve part of the problem in high sec, as it would take multiple dessies (3+) or larger ships in order to successfully suicide gank.

Its still a bandaid, but in the short term I think it would help a lot. Risk / Reward should work both ways, and currently it does not. It is completely in favor of the fighter, and not the indie as it stands (no real risk at all, large reward).


Regardless, I look forward to seeing how it turns out / what the specifics on the changes are. ;)



P.S.: I may not always agree with your posts RubyPorto (granted, I do tend to agree with most), but you do give me plenty of entertainment regardless. lol +1 ;)

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#146 - 2012-06-24 09:06:26 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
I personally love the changes, although I hope the Hulk does not get ignored altogether, or the price drops tremendously on it.

The high sec pirate vs carebear argument is one that may never get truly settled. I don't think most (at least myself and most of the ones I know personally) of the miners have a problem with someone managing to suicide gank them, or having a chance to. The problem lies in the exploits that are used to do it using some of the current game mechanics. ;P

I had a Hurricane show up and nuke the hell out of me last year while my hands were full changing the baby, I never got the chance to even try and react, although I doubt i would have been able to anyway. His ship got blown to hell, he actually lost a bit of money (had some decent t2 gear on it), and complimented me on my tank (not that it did any good. Took i think 2 broadsides to drop me), and we chatted for a bit. This happens, and it keeps me on my toes, and the game interesting.

However, when someone is able to spend just a few million, load up a dessie, and pop billion dollar ships at leisure, or manages to sucker newer players into the bait and switch (having an Orca with a fighting upgrade close by to jump in), with no challenge, major penalty, or any real price to pay, then they (and I ) get a bit more upset. 0.0 and Low sec this becomes much less of an issue, because the exploit is not present (they can just nuke the Orca, for example, or hunt down and just start firing at any known flippers / suiciders in zone).

I like the idea of the bigger exhumers also having more EHP, however, I think they should not have as much TANK as the mack, etc (high health, low armor). That would solve part of the problem in high sec, as it would take multiple dessies (3+) or larger ships in order to successfully suicide gank.

Its still a bandaid, but in the short term I think it would help a lot. Risk / Reward should work both ways, and currently it does not. It is completely in favor of the fighter, and not the indie as it stands (no real risk at all, large reward).


Regardless, I look forward to seeing how it turns out / what the specifics on the changes are. ;)

P.S.: I may not always agree with your posts RubyPorto (granted, I do tend to agree with most), but you do give me plenty of entertainment regardless. lol +1 ;)


A meta fit Catalyst can kill Untanked Covetors and may be able to kill an untanked Hulk (533 dps vs 10.9k EHP vs AM for 20s. It's a margin of ~300 EHP for the Hulk. It'll be very close and depend on skills/luck/drone travel. Luckily, maxing out an untanked Hulk's EHP is a lot less skill intensive than maxing out a Dessie's dps).

Reliably killing untanked or badly tanked hulks requires a t2 fit Dessie which costs around 15m. That happens to be about the same as the meta fit brutix used to cost to lose after insurance (and meta fit thoraxes cost a similar amount to lose as meta fit dessies do now).

A properly tanked Hulk cannot currently be profitably ganked. Which is really all the tank you need.

Why is someone who is flying a billion ISK ship not bothering to tank it such that it will not be killed by a 4m isk destroyer?

As for can baiting, if you chose to engage someone's ship because you thought they were weak enough that you could take them, aren't you guilty of the same type of bullying you're accusing the baiter of engaging it? The fact that you turned out to be wrong doesn't change the initial action.

re: PS: I do try. That's why I've been experimenting with trolling through song.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#147 - 2012-06-24 11:55:24 UTC
A properly tanked Hulk can be destroyed with one ship.
Dave stark
#148 - 2012-06-24 12:32:46 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
A properly tanked Hulk can be destroyed with one ship.


a properly tanked anything can be destroyed by 1 ship if it's not shooting back. i fail to see your point.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#149 - 2012-06-24 13:13:14 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
a properly tanked anything can be destroyed by 1 ship if it's not shooting back. i fail to see your point.


What ship can suicide gank Damnation? Probably wouldn't matter if it shoots back because as we all know Damnation's dps is something you don't want to speak about.
Deity Aiur
Boris Johnson's Love Children
#150 - 2012-06-24 16:51:33 UTC
The original poster is in my opinion, completely right. I mine in nullsec in a Hulk so therefore i literally cannot take my eyes of local for more than 30 seconds, once this NERF, yes, NERF, goes live i will be punished by AFK noobs in highsec mining in a safe environment with a ridiculous ore bay sitting there pulling in a good amount of ORE compared to my yield, refining it in a max yield station and then selling it in Jita dragging mineral prices down while all they did is press F1 and F2, while i have to pay constant attention to a boring activity.

I am telling you right now, mineral prices are going to absolutely plummet. Which is disgusting if they don't balance the economy in other areas. Someone who hasn't trained into mining at all, can put 5 days in gas harvesting V and make more isk in 1 hour than i can in 3. Similarly a uber carebear Machariel pilot can run belts and sites all day and make more isk in 1 hour than i can in 3. So please CCP tell me how this is fair.

I spent 3 lousy months when i started EVE training for this hulk, and with this nerf i shall see my isk per hour drop to a ridiculous level, i could probably make more ISK ratting belts in a battle cruiser.

CCP need to nerf highsec mining, buff hulks, inject better asteroids into Nullsec and Lowsec rather than give a botters a good time running 10 accounts.

Also ship prices will plummet while ratters will still make the same amount of ISK so they can have fun time affording to PVP in whatever they want, while i suffer. Yes i am a pvper who owns a hulk, i cannot at this stage fly a decent ratting ship, nor should i have to.
Dave stark
#151 - 2012-06-24 18:28:00 UTC
Deity Aiur wrote:
The original poster is in my opinion, completely right. I mine in nullsec in a Hulk so therefore i literally cannot take my eyes of local for more than 30 seconds, once this NERF, yes, NERF, goes live i will be punished by AFK noobs in highsec mining in a safe environment with a ridiculous ore bay sitting there pulling in a good amount of ORE compared to my yield, refining it in a max yield station and then selling it in Jita dragging mineral prices down while all they did is press F1 and F2, while i have to pay constant attention to a boring activity.

I am telling you right now, mineral prices are going to absolutely plummet. Which is disgusting if they don't balance the economy in other areas. Someone who hasn't trained into mining at all, can put 5 days in gas harvesting V and make more isk in 1 hour than i can in 3. Similarly a uber carebear Machariel pilot can run belts and sites all day and make more isk in 1 hour than i can in 3. So please CCP tell me how this is fair.

I spent 3 lousy months when i started EVE training for this hulk, and with this nerf i shall see my isk per hour drop to a ridiculous level, i could probably make more ISK ratting belts in a battle cruiser.

CCP need to nerf highsec mining, buff hulks, inject better asteroids into Nullsec and Lowsec rather than give a botters a good time running 10 accounts.

Also ship prices will plummet while ratters will still make the same amount of ISK so they can have fun time affording to PVP in whatever they want, while i suffer. Yes i am a pvper who owns a hulk, i cannot at this stage fly a decent ratting ship, nor should i have to.



care to explain how it's a nerf? qualifying your statements often helps you look less stupid.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#152 - 2012-06-24 18:30:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Zyella Stormborn
Deity Aiur wrote:
....CCP need to nerf highsec mining, buff hulks, inject better asteroids into Nullsec and Lowsec rather than give a botters a good time running 10 accounts.

Also ship prices will plummet while ratters will still make the same amount of ISK so they can have fun time affording to PVP in whatever they want, while i suffer. Yes i am a pvper who owns a hulk, i cannot at this stage fly a decent ratting ship, nor should i have to.



While I agree that 0.0 should get some mining love, and Low sec in particular could use some, I disagree with nerfing high sec. CCP does actively go after bots when / as they can, but that is a different problem. I do not think prices will plummet nearly as much as you think, especially with drones only becoming bounty for reward now.
I use high sec much more now myself, because of RL not allowing me to constantly maintain vigilance every single second (3 kids, 1 still in diapers, wife, 3 dogs. I am also on call at almost all times, due to my position in the Police Dept.). It has also, at least for now, removed any real chance of practicing and getting better at PVP for me, but unless you can invest the time and attention, Low sec / 0.0 is just not a viable option most of the time.

That is the great part about EVE though. As the pvp'rs love to say, its a sandbox, you can choose what you want to do and play it out. If pple want to, or need to 'play it safer' by being in high sec, and simply mining for relaxation, they have that option. I do find mining cathartic, and do not do it just for the ISK, but I would enjoy making more profit at it than some guy in a cruiser running L3 missions 2 weeks into the game, I'll admit.

CCP has made a ton of changes over time, most of them for the better, some not as much. But hey, we play in the game as its made, and we adapt as we go, until changes can come into play. ;) Before shouting for Ragnarok, lets see what the actual stats are on the changes to the Miners (has anyone seen any hard data yet?). You may even be pleasantly surprised by what they do.

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Dave stark
#153 - 2012-06-24 18:34:24 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
a properly tanked anything can be destroyed by 1 ship if it's not shooting back. i fail to see your point.


What ship can suicide gank Damnation? Probably wouldn't matter if it shoots back because as we all know Damnation's dps is something you don't want to speak about.


fair point, however the issue really is that rewards are being handed out. provided some one can find profit in ganking ship x with ship y they will do it regardless of how well tanked ship x is.

if some one handed out 1bil per damnation kill i'm sure it wouldn't be long before some one would gladly sacrifice a small group of ships to do so if it there was profit in it.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2012-06-24 19:51:50 UTC
Deity Aiur wrote:
The original poster is in my opinion, completely right. I mine in nullsec in a Hulk so therefore i literally cannot take my eyes of local for more than 30 seconds, once this NERF, yes, NERF, goes live i will be punished by AFK noobs in highsec mining in a safe environment with a ridiculous ore bay sitting there pulling in a good amount of ORE compared to my yield, refining it in a max yield station and then selling it in Jita dragging mineral prices down while all they did is press F1 and F2, while i have to pay constant attention to a boring activity.


Aside for the ore bay size, AFK noobs are already doing this. Not that much change. And the ore bay size will be in exchange for mining output, as the Hulk will still have the best mining output

Deity Aiur wrote:
Someone who hasn't trained into mining at all, can put 5 days in gas harvesting V and make more isk in 1 hour than i can in 3.

I'm already doing that with gas harvesting 5. One key distinction however is that one must FIND the gas clouds, so its not a fair comparison as you cannot collect gas on demand like warping to an asteroid belt.

Deity Aiur wrote:
Similarly a uber carebear Machariel pilot can run belts and sites all day and make more isk in 1 hour than i can in 3.

that mach pilot is already kicking your isk/hr a$$.

Deity Aiur wrote:
I spent 3 lousy months when i started EVE training for this hulk, and with this nerf i shall see my isk per hour drop to a ridiculous level, i could probably make more ISK ratting belts in a battle cruiser.

You could make more isk/hr now ratting belts in a BC.


Deity Aiur wrote:
Also ship prices will plummet while ratters will still make the same amount of ISK so they can have fun time affording to PVP in whatever they want, while i suffer. Yes i am a pvper who owns a hulk, i cannot at this stage fly a decent ratting ship, nor should i have to.


Wat? Yea I mean why put those combat skills for your PVP to use flying combat ships worthy of ratting.


Seriously though. Do you actually mine solo in null? Seems to me you should get yourself in with a mining fleet and make use of that Hulk's power. By the way that will still be the hulk's power after the ship rebalance.

After the ship rebalance you may even find that the retriever/mackinaw will have sufficient tanks to solo mine in null. In which case you will be able to take advantage of the same ship those evil highsec miners will be using. Except you will still be able to mine the better ores and make more isk/hr than they are.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#155 - 2012-06-24 20:34:21 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
A properly tanked Hulk can be destroyed with one ship.


Not in a suicide gank.

A fact that has been pointed out so many times when you lie about it.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#156 - 2012-06-25 00:01:52 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
A properly tanked Hulk can be destroyed with one ship.


Not in a suicide gank.

A fact that has been pointed out so many times when you lie about it.


A Tornado with 11K alpha is touch and go in a 0.5 space on a Hulk with 30K tank.
If the Tornado pilot does not draw Concord away from the Hulk, he only gets 2 shots in and dies before killing the Hulk.

IF he has an alt draw Concord away, he might get off 3 shots and bye bye Hulk.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#157 - 2012-06-25 00:11:03 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
A properly tanked Hulk can be destroyed with one ship.


Not in a suicide gank.

A fact that has been pointed out so many times when you lie about it.


A Tornado with 11K alpha is touch and go in a 0.5 space on a Hulk with 30K tank.
If the Tornado pilot does not draw Concord away from the Hulk, he only gets 2 shots in and dies before killing the Hulk.

IF he has an alt draw Concord away, he might get off 3 shots and bye bye Hulk.


1) The Hulk pilot gets a warning from someone in Local going GCC.
2) The Hulk has 32.6k EHP vs Quake before Gang bonuses. (38k with an Orca giving 2 shield boosts, 1 Mining boost)

EDIT: Best way to tank a Hulk is to get just enough so that a Nado can't do you in with 2 volleys of any ammo, then tank vs AM and void. And use a Tengu to give you your shield boosts.

54k EHP vs AM
54k EHP vs Void
31k vs EMP
42k vs Fusion
54k vs PP
44k vs Quake

54k EHP is a tough nut to crack in Catalysts, and you still need 2 Tornados to kill it. (assuming you leave when someone goes GCC in local)

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Wuxi Wuxilla
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#158 - 2012-06-25 00:17:23 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
A properly tanked Hulk can be destroyed with one ship.


Not in a suicide gank.

A fact that has been pointed out so many times when you lie about it.


A Tornado with 11K alpha is touch and go in a 0.5 space on a Hulk with 30K tank.
If the Tornado pilot does not draw Concord away from the Hulk, he only gets 2 shots in and dies before killing the Hulk.

IF he has an alt draw Concord away, he might get off 3 shots and bye bye Hulk.


And the Hulk pilot gets a warning from someone in Local going GCC.


3 volleys of a nado take 27sec with max skills. I'm not conviced this is possible, even with drawing concord away before.
Also the original statement came from the same person who said that a properly tanked hulk has 40k ehp (with siege link), not 30k.
Oh well, the original statement also came from the person saying that procurers will get ganked by Tornados after the changes, so well, why do we even bother?
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#159 - 2012-06-25 03:53:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
RubyPorto wrote:
Not in a suicide gank.

A fact that has been pointed out so many times when you lie about it.


Well, it's not even near profitable, but it can be done. Don't know if there's someone stupid enough to do it.

[Hulk, Tankit]

Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I

Modulated Strip Miner II
Modulated Strip Miner II
Modulated Strip Miner II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

vs.

[Talos, Talos fit]

Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
[Empty Low slot]

[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Void L

Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Medium Hybrid Collision Accelerator I
[Empty Rig slot]


Hobgoblin II x5


Inherent Implants 'Lancer' Gunnery RF-905
Zainou 'Deadeye' Large Hybrid Turret LH-1005
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#160 - 2012-06-25 05:21:49 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Not in a suicide gank.

A fact that has been pointed out so many times when you lie about it.


Well, it's not even near profitable, but it can be done. Don't know if there's someone stupid enough to do it.

[Hulk, Tankit]

Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I

Modulated Strip Miner II
Modulated Strip Miner II
Modulated Strip Miner II

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


That's not properly tanked.

40.8k EHP vs Void and still enough tank that 2 volleys from a Nado won't kill it.

[Hulk, Tank Fit]

Micro Auxiliary Power Core II
Damage Control II

Medium Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Kinetic Deflection Amplifier II
Limited Thermic Dissipation Field I

Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II
Modulated Strip Miner II, Veldspar Mining Crystal II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon