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(Proposal) Cloaky reds in system & Macro miners in Eve, how to make life harder for them.

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Ribikoka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#181 - 2012-06-22 09:18:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Ribikoka
Kaelie Onren wrote:
Oh noes. Yet another cap consume cloaking suggestion.
How original.

How about you stop trying to nerf my play style of intel collection (recording the screen forever) and all the other comments that other people have mentioned like relative safety of cloakers in station of log off.

Your whining ( of just the 2 of you and your alts ) is what everyone deals with in nullsec.
You got a bum deal, you rented a fringe system from a big alliance. Surprise surprise. These alliances treat these systems like ghetto properties by the train tracks. IE get whatever sucker to pay to rent it as they can't be bothered to defend it themselves.

I used to argue for a counter to cloakers too (google it) before I realized the legitimacy of intel collection and nullsec noob terrorizing. Which is valid tactics in null. ( yes. Valid. Just like ninja salvaging )

So just HTFU.
(I hate using that term, but nothing else sums it up as well)



Arguemont just HTFU and GTFO, no matter how you cry with your alts.

This is a counter for cloakers. Already they not have counters. and AFK cloakers plagued all systems. They are realy collecting intels alone in empty systems 24/7 time long?? LOL
Cloakers is just little girls, they just want to play without risk. Bunch of p

Capacitor consume for cloaked ships is much better solution than posting GMs. They dont have time for check every cloakers and you never see cloaked pilot active or not. So, how you can report a cloakers if you dont know he is active or not?

Capacitor consume much better solution.
During cloak disable cap regeneration and after every hour remove 25% (or 20%) of capacitor from covert cloaked ships and 50% of capacitor every hour from non covert cloaked ship. Thats mean a cloaker need to move after 4-5 hours (recons) or need to move after 2 hours (common cloaks)
Disable recloak ability again until the cloak can reach the appropriate value at least 25% or 50% of cap. (depends from cloak type, covert or not)

So, when the ship run out from capacitor, the ship need to move to safe spot and the pilot unable to remain AFK 4 or 5 hours long time in enemy system or he risk his ship.
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#182 - 2012-06-22 12:19:34 UTC
Why is it that when I argue a point, I just get called a troll? Those were all legitimate arguement. If you dont like the fact your proposal is full of holes, then amend it. Dont just call me a troll.

As for the cap consumtion for cloakies. Although the way Rib suggests it works is very differant to how any other mods work at the moment (im usually moderately against ideas like this), I actually see very few problems with it. In fact I can't think of anything legitimately wrong with it. Makes sence.

Oh, and Rib, nice to see you finally abandoned the log off mechanic and AFK tag ideas. = P

If it did take 4 or so hours for your cap to run out using a system like this it doesn't break anyone's gameplay. If you want to gather intel then set an alarm, come back and bouncy around safe spots for a bit whilest your cloak recharges. You probably wouldn't even need to bounce, just check DScan for combat scanners whilst you wait.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Untouchable Heart
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#183 - 2012-06-22 12:41:06 UTC
Ribikoka wrote:
Kahn Soomer wrote:
Skip my wall of text.
Read the SOLUTION (SEE ABOVE).
Pick it up.
Run with it, Mr. Council Man.

Further constructive suggestion:
If you don't want to have a GM click 2 buttons (this isn't drafting response to a petition, is it?), then AUTOMATE THE BUTTON to activate the booting 2 hours after the report but ONLY if the AFK CLOAKER remains inactive in the same system where he was first reported as an EXTENDED AFK CLOAKER (2+ hours afk) to CCP. This would cause auto boot 4+ hours into his AFK mode.

You think the RISK to cloaky is unfari? An AFK Cloaky has risk of getting discovered in an automated Emergency d/c warp out? Well, that probably depends on where he parked himself AFK, but I'd say the risk is minimal. Oh, wai... do you want a role with no risk, Mr. Cloaky? Are you AFRAID, Mr. Cloaky? LOL. Even the Psychological warfare could have a counter. I love it.

p.s. - Making a constructive suggestion in here seems to always cause trolling and personal attack. So, you win, Mr. Troll. I'm not renting and I'm not going "back to Empire". Instead, I'll simply say:
I have played EvE continuously for over 6 years, and in all parts of the map. One thing remains constant. Wherever players gather together near a resource, you have people doing EXTENDED CLOAKY AFK looking for ganks. Since there is no counter for this with game mechanics, the best solution is simply not to undock or to move to another system. Moving is easy for the large alliances who control the Council. It's not so easy for the small guys. [atm, my main is associated with a larger alliance. so this isn't really hurting me personally, atm. I'm posting because I think the mechanic is broken, and has been broken for many years due to the way the cloak mechanism was coded.] IF a council member takes up this cause to investigate a solution with CCP, he will have my utmost respect and appreciation.



Capacitor consume for cloaked ships is much better solution than posting GMs. They dont have time for check every cloakers and you never see cloaked pilot active or not. So, how you can report a cloakers if you dont know he is active or not?

Capacitor consume much better solution.
During cloak disable cap regeneration and after every hour remove 25% (or 20%) of capacitor from covert cloaked ships and 50% of capacitor every hour from non covert cloaked ship. Thats mean a cloaker need to move after 4-5 hours (recons) or need to move after 2 hours (common cloaks)
Disable recloak ability again until the cloak can reach the appropriate value at least 25% or 50% of cap. (depends from cloak type, covert or not)

So, when the ship run out from capacitor, the ship need to move to safe spot and the pilot unable to remain AFK 4 or 5 hours long time in enemy system or he risk his ship.


I agree with you on that.
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#184 - 2012-06-23 03:17:41 UTC
Ribikoka wrote:

Cloakers is just little girls, they just want to play without risk. Bunch of p


Everytime you mention this point, I will repeat myself, so that any new people joining the thread (as if there were any) will know the fundamental point you are missing here.


No ISK, NO RISK.
Cloakers earn NO ISK, Cloakers do not earn ANY RISK.
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#185 - 2012-06-23 04:22:46 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
Why is it that when I argue a point, I just get called a troll? Those were all legitimate arguement. If you dont like the fact your proposal is full of holes, then amend it. Dont just call me a troll.

As for the cap consumtion for cloakies. Although the way Rib suggests it works is very differant to how any other mods work at the moment (im usually moderately against ideas like this), I actually see very few problems with it. In fact I can't think of anything legitimately wrong with it. Makes sence.

Oh, and Rib, nice to see you finally abandoned the log off mechanic and AFK tag ideas. = P

If it did take 4 or so hours for your cap to run out using a system like this it doesn't break anyone's gameplay. If you want to gather intel then set an alarm, come back and bouncy around safe spots for a bit whilest your cloak recharges. You probably wouldn't even need to bounce, just check DScan for combat scanners whilst you wait.


Actually, there are some considerations that this proposal misses here:

Do you mean to make your cap -100% recharge while you are cloaked? How else is a 25%cap/1 hour cycle time going to ever deplete more than 25% of cap???

So if by a small chance that Rib actually thought of that, and just failed to mention the -100% recharge necessity, then I would point out that this -100% cap gimp completely kills cover ops/recon ships which have small cap. You won't be able to make it more 2 jumps into null sec before you have to decloak to recharge your cap so that you can even make the next warp.

Not to mention it completely destroys the gameplay of scouts jumping into an unknown system without system safes. They jump in, they cloak and warp to sun, and already need to decloak to recharge cap. The see combat probes show up on Dscan, they recloak and bounce to the next celestial, now they are definitely out of cap, probably drop out of warp half way.
Now they have only 2 choices. Decloak and hope to gain enough cap for another warp, or stay cloaked and hide..... (yeah, you saw this coming) 1 hour later when the awesome new 25% / h mechanic decloaks them. Pretty much jumping into enemy territory with even a minor PvP force will be suicide.

This will totally ruin the gameplay of covert ops.

Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#186 - 2012-06-23 05:13:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaelie Onren
Now, here is the real reason why miners are the ones who need to HTFU. Yes, logical statements strung together in a convincing argument.

I will answer them in FAQ style:

Statement: NO ISK, NO RISK. (that is the defence of AFK cloakers. Miners seem to not want to recognize this)
But, they strangely don't have a problem with accepting the flipside of that same statement:
WITH ISK comes RISK.

They are the first to admit that there should be risk in the game, and that risk should be scaled to the amount of ISK the activity you are doing earns.

Q. Is highsec mining more or less profitable than nullsec mining?
A. it is less much less profitable.

Q. Is highsec mining more or less risky than nullsec mining?
A. It is less risky, but only because of cloakers and chances of hotdrops in nullsec.

Q. Should I as a nullsec miner have to tolerate the possibility of getting hotdropped at any time?
A. Yes. You made that choice when you decided to mine in nullsec. You are making a LOT more isk than in highsec, and therefore this is YOUR risk to wear.

Q. But I paid an alliance to rent this space! Shouldn't this entitle me to some level of peace and quiet to mine?
A. No. You should have factored that renting cost into your mining yield profit calculations. You paid for the right to use null space without actually putting the time into conquering it yourself. You did NOT pay for risk free ore mining. If mining rare expensive ore was so easy, why doesn't everyone who can pay a rent fee do it?

Q. I thought it moving to null is what everyone does to get rich fast! It isn't?
A. Not necessarily. Maybe a myth propagated by renting alliances or PvPers looking for fresh meat

Q. I thought the formula to use was " if possible nullsec yield/month - rent/month > highsec yield/month " then you should move to null, is this not true?
A. Not that simple. You forgot to factor in the risk profiles of null vs highsec.

Q. I'm pissed now because I didn't do the math, and I think its unfair that I thought that this mining in null thing was going to get me rich fast. But it really doesn't unless I have to change the way I mine, hire scouts and do all this other stuff that I didn't need to do when I mined in highsec. I want to blame this on someone. Isn't it unfair that AFK cloakers have such a 'godlike' uber mechanic on their side?
A. No. It is not their fault that the way the game is played and balanced in nullsec does not work to your expectations. They earn no isk. They get no risk. Denial of space, and reconnaissance is their role in nullsec. It is their job in the circle of life to make your life a pain. And the pain is yours to bear as you want to mine rare ore and get rich.
Ta-Dam
#187 - 2012-06-23 07:23:34 UTC
Ribikoka wrote:
Kahn Soomer wrote:
Skip my wall of text.
Read the SOLUTION (SEE ABOVE).
Pick it up.
Run with it, Mr. Council Man.

Further constructive suggestion:
If you don't want to have a GM click 2 buttons (this isn't drafting response to a petition, is it?), then AUTOMATE THE BUTTON to activate the booting 2 hours after the report but ONLY if the AFK CLOAKER remains inactive in the same system where he was first reported as an EXTENDED AFK CLOAKER (2+ hours afk) to CCP. This would cause auto boot 4+ hours into his AFK mode.

You think the RISK to cloaky is unfari? An AFK Cloaky has risk of getting discovered in an automated Emergency d/c warp out? Well, that probably depends on where he parked himself AFK, but I'd say the risk is minimal. Oh, wai... do you want a role with no risk, Mr. Cloaky? Are you AFRAID, Mr. Cloaky? LOL. Even the Psychological warfare could have a counter. I love it.

p.s. - Making a constructive suggestion in here seems to always cause trolling and personal attack. So, you win, Mr. Troll. I'm not renting and I'm not going "back to Empire". Instead, I'll simply say:
I have played EvE continuously for over 6 years, and in all parts of the map. One thing remains constant. Wherever players gather together near a resource, you have people doing EXTENDED CLOAKY AFK looking for ganks. Since there is no counter for this with game mechanics, the best solution is simply not to undock or to move to another system. Moving is easy for the large alliances who control the Council. It's not so easy for the small guys. [atm, my main is associated with a larger alliance. so this isn't really hurting me personally, atm. I'm posting because I think the mechanic is broken, and has been broken for many years due to the way the cloak mechanism was coded.] IF a council member takes up this cause to investigate a solution with CCP, he will have my utmost respect and appreciation.



Capacitor consume for cloaked ships is much better solution than posting GMs. They dont have time for check every cloakers and you never see cloaked pilot active or not. So, how you can report a cloakers if you dont know he is active or not?

Capacitor consume much better solution.
During cloak disable cap regeneration and after every hour remove 25% (or 20%) of capacitor from covert cloaked ships and 50% of capacitor every hour from non covert cloaked ship. Thats mean a cloaker need to move after 4-5 hours (recons) or need to move after 2 hours (common cloaks)
Disable recloak ability again until the cloak can reach the appropriate value at least 25% or 50% of cap. (depends from cloak type, covert or not)

So, when the ship run out from capacitor, the ship need to move to safe spot and the pilot unable to remain AFK 4 or 5 hours long time in enemy system or he risk his ship.


+1
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#188 - 2012-06-23 15:43:03 UTC
Ta-Dam wrote:
Stuff


Alt post, please ignore.

Rib, we all know these are your alts. Dont embarress yourself. If this is your alt, you can't deny it, because it would be against the EULA to pretend the account belonged to another person. So do us a favour and just stop posting with all your alts.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Ribikoka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#189 - 2012-06-23 16:32:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Ribikoka
Arduemont wrote:
Ta-Dam wrote:
Stuff


Alt post, please ignore.

Rib, we all know these are your alts. Dont embarress yourself. If this is your alt, you can't deny it, because it would be against the EULA to pretend the account belonged to another person. So do us a favour and just stop posting with all your alts.


That is not my alt, prove it or GTFO.

"Everyone knows why would be disturb the AFK tag some cloaky fags, who lying in this topic "I'm AFK at enemy systems and i cant kill anyone when i'm AFK", because they would be lost the chances to terrorizing active players in AFK."


"AFK cloakers plagued all systems. They are realy collecting intels alone in empty systems 24/7 time long?? LOL"

""Just as i said. It's time to create something what is should be change this bad game mechanic where a cloaker can hide in enemy system and can went out from his PC, 23 hours time long, without risk.

Need solution for handling this. Capacitor useage for cloak, or fuel usage. Counter ship (seek and destroy) or AFK tag.""

And still we have a question.

"why disturb afk tag an afk player who not at the computer ?"


And everyone know NO RISK in AFK cloaking at enemy system it's time create a counter against them.
Collecting intel in AFK it's lying.
R0nnie VanZant
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#190 - 2012-06-23 17:09:45 UTC
Tiger's Spirit wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Tiger's Spirit wrote:
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Did you know under heavy TiDi you can spend over 30 minutes in warp across a very large system?

Not afk, but not doing anything either.

Did you know its not uncommon for one dude to run 3-4 scouts in various systems, making sure they remain clear and lighting a cyno eventually? They don't touch that client til its needed either, and that can take longer than 30 minutes.

Did you know that such a limitation is very easily circumvented by a macro that pushes the space bar once every 5 minutes? Or even this?

Edit: and, because of the distributed processing nature of the EVE server, game wide server load isn't something you need ever be concerned about, only system wide.



Did you know easy to create a macrofilter which is check the client which is push space every 5 minutes ? Do you heard abot CCP rules which is not enable AFK macros ? Do you heard about banhammer ? Risk with macro and you will be banned.
Do you know cyno time is 10 minute and not 30 ? Do you know u dont need to wait 30 minutes on station for cyno and you can log off ?

Way to not understand my point.

It will not help stop macros, because a macro already beats it by definition.

The cynoscouts don't sit there with a cyno open in a system that is not being attacked yet... just watching while cloaked, usually with multiple windows he just tabs through while running a main in a fleet.

This means that people who are breaking the rules will be immune to an afk time out stopping them, and people who are legitimately playing the game, using sit and wait strategies, or just stuck in a VERY long operation(ever put up a POS?) will be hurt.

Edit: re-reading your posts after replying to this, I have to conclude you are an idiot. We both seem to be trying to point out that an afk timer would be useless, and that removing local does help anything either, however all you are doing to try and accomplish this is flailing around attacking everything you see. Please try to understand the posts you attack so you don't inadvertently undermine your own position.


No one sit on local at least 30 without any movement if playing. Moving mouse, check pilot infos, chat on corp or other chat etc.
So i'm an idiot what you could to say, that's was your best argument. Insult others when someone have other theory.

All right i think let's see what would be say Zagdul for this troll answer. Time to move your stuffz from FA stations.
R0nnie VanZant
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#191 - 2012-06-23 17:30:57 UTC
I think Tiger's Spirit has right!!

Why the **** someone AFK in a enemy system? Even spy or scout don't do AFK in a enemy system long time.. The reason why someone is there, because try to terrorize the local citizens.
Nothing to do there only cloak the ship and AFK. Local players don't dare to kill NPC-s or something, because don't know somebody hot drop them or try to kill, and no one can shot him.

And of cours everybody hate cloaky faggs on local. They do nothing even fight, so pointless be there long time.
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#192 - 2012-06-23 18:40:09 UTC
Hehron wrote:
I can't understand why CCP has not done this for a long time ago. Like any other MMO game ( or some ) to make it much
harder to be a Macro miner.

How to do?

Simply let the game disconnect after 30 mins or so, when the mouse or keyboard haven't been used !

Kill some of the illegal ISK flow and it would also kill the so simpel AFK cloaky reds in a system. Never saw the AFK reds
as very diffucult, frankly it's pretty gay. It's got nothing to do with with how good you fly, everyone can put an alt in a system
and leave game.

Just my two cents


Hehron


Except, you know, the most popular botting software simulates mouse and keyboard inputs using the OS keyboard and mouse buffers in a way that cannot be legally tracked by CCP and is identical to the physical keyboard and mouse at the software level.

So it is already immune to your brilliant idea. Even before it is done. Timeouts like that would only break long autopilot runs in highsec. Which is what you really want, anyways.

lern2computah
Eve forums official anthem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA Real men tank hull. Fake women shield-tank Gallente.
Arduemont
Rotten Legion
#193 - 2012-06-23 21:44:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
Haha, Rib claimed that char wasn't his alt and it was cut by the ISD.

So they are his alts then. >.<

Kaelie Onren wrote:
I will answer them in FAQ style.

...


Also, this is a well put forward arguemnet.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf
Ribikoka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#194 - 2012-06-23 23:43:15 UTC
R0nnie VanZant wrote:
I think Tiger's Spirit has right!!

Why the **** someone AFK in a enemy system? Even spy or scout don't do AFK in a enemy system long time.. The reason why someone is there, because try to terrorize the local citizens.
Nothing to do there only cloak the ship and AFK. Local players don't dare to kill NPC-s or something, because don't know somebody hot drop them or try to kill, and no one can shot him.

And of cours everybody hate cloaky faggs on local. They do nothing even fight, so pointless be there long time.


I agree with you.
How many times i saw 3 weeks long intel collecting when a neutral alt at enemy system just logged on and went to AFK.
Intel collecting in AFK :PPP thats a joke argument.
Shazih Hasheesh
Doomheim
#195 - 2012-06-24 00:49:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Shazih Hasheesh
AFK Cloaking a problem? Is this a joke? How can they bother you if they are afk?

Can the OP please take off the tin foil hat?

1. If you are worried about the cloaked pilot sitting in your system, stay alert.
2. If the cloaked pilot is indeed Away From Keyboard, than he won't be there to cause problems.

An AFK tag is stupid idea, so is an auto disconnect imo. Both easily circumvented. Removing local or something similar is an interesting idea, but because I like the idea of people forming their own channels etc. The fact is cloaking is not broken.

OP said because nobody knows if cloaked pilot is AFK or not, they can terrorize other pilots risk free.
The lesson: Eve is a game where you should be alert 24/7, not cry because you can't see somebody.

On a side note, I would love to hear the story behind your hate of cloaked pilots!
Shazih Hasheesh
Doomheim
#196 - 2012-06-24 00:50:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Shazih Hasheesh
Ribikoka wrote:
R0nnie VanZant wrote:
I think Tiger's Spirit has right!!

Why the **** someone AFK in a enemy system? Even spy or scout don't do AFK in a enemy system long time.. The reason why someone is there, because try to terrorize the local citizens.
Nothing to do there only cloak the ship and AFK. Local players don't dare to kill NPC-s or something, because don't know somebody hot drop them or try to kill, and no one can shot him.

And of cours everybody hate cloaky faggs on local. They do nothing even fight, so pointless be there long time.


I agree with you.
How many times i saw 3 weeks long intel collecting when a neutral alt at enemy system just logged on and went to AFK.
Intel collecting in AFK :PPP thats a joke argument.


Gathering what intel while AFK? Chat logs? Why are you all talking in local? Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that is the only thing an AFK cloaked pilot could get in the realm of intel. I'm pretty sure most other types of intel would require him to be at his computer.
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#197 - 2012-06-24 00:57:24 UTC
Ribikoka wrote:


And still we have a question.

"why disturb afk tag an afk player who not at the computer ?"


I answered this badly formed non-english question already. Didn't you read it?

No isk no risk. (I guess you don't understand this)
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#198 - 2012-06-24 00:59:19 UTC
Shazih Hasheesh wrote:

Gathering what intel while AFK? Chat logs? Why are you all talking in local? Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that is the only thing an AFK cloaked pilot could get in the realm of intel. I'm pretty sure most other types of intel would require him to be at his computer.


Answered this one already too. I video tape the POS arrivals 24 hrs long. Watch them later and record all your corp members names.
Shazih Hasheesh
Doomheim
#199 - 2012-06-24 01:03:50 UTC
Kaelie Onren wrote:
Shazih Hasheesh wrote:

Gathering what intel while AFK? Chat logs? Why are you all talking in local? Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that is the only thing an AFK cloaked pilot could get in the realm of intel. I'm pretty sure most other types of intel would require him to be at his computer.


Answered this one already too. I video tape the POS arrivals 24 hrs long. Watch them later and record all your corp members names.



Ah, I had not considered fraps. But as for member lists, just use eve-who.
Kaelie Onren
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#200 - 2012-06-24 05:00:42 UTC
Shazih Hasheesh wrote:
Kaelie Onren wrote:
Shazih Hasheesh wrote:

Gathering what intel while AFK? Chat logs? Why are you all talking in local? Maybe I'm wrong but it seems to me that is the only thing an AFK cloaked pilot could get in the realm of intel. I'm pretty sure most other types of intel would require him to be at his computer.


Answered this one already too. I video tape the POS arrivals 24 hrs long. Watch them later and record all your corp members names.



Ah, I had not considered fraps. But as for member lists, just use eve-who.


True, but more than just memberships you learn who logs on when, and who are the miners, the FOs, the people who restock the POS etc. You know, stuff silly noob renting whiner miners never think about.