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New dev blog: Inferno 1.1 Changes To the War Dec System

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Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#381 - 2012-06-19 21:48:19 UTC
as to why jade's solution is dumb: that's actually been explained ad nauseum as well but jade feels if he keeps asking it until everyone gets tired of answering and just ignores him, he will seem like he is right

again, this is because he thinks you, the readers, are idiots

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#382 - 2012-06-19 21:50:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
Jade Constantine wrote:
Well given the pretty significant opposition to this particular change expressed in this and *many* other threads on the forums

"entirely though the posts of one Jade Constantine and virtually nobody else"

edit: they were also many threads because they kept getting locked due to jade melting down into a puddle of tin

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Enaris Kerle
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#383 - 2012-06-19 22:02:41 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
-----Edit-----

Trolling is not permitted.

ISD Tyrozan
Ensign
Community Communications Liaisons
Interstellar Services Department

Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm.
Talsha Talamar
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
#384 - 2012-06-19 22:04:22 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
[quote=Pron Fron]
You suggest CCP hire a military advisor, but a military advisor would never produce the "fair and balanced" set of mechanics many are striving here for. They would certainly know better than to declare war where an unlimited risk potential existed. They would understand that aggressor corps are only ever going to declare wars they think they can win.


1) The very same military advisor would continue to explain that in contemporary history
no nation ever went to wage an external war that it was not certain to win.
Yet still since the end of the world wars, there have been wars all around the globe.

Eve is a game of consequences and irrational war declarations
should have major consequences on the aggressor.

If an alliance manages to get hated or feared so universally,
that a declaration of war against a small corporation
would put them in danger to become the target of an universal alliance,
then that would be a just consequence of their policies and actions.

If they evaluated the INTEL properly the would abstain from such a war declaration or suffer.

The fact that such a situation contributed to an world war twice,
was one factor that brought about the age of wars that are either limited or executed by proxies.


2) Eve strives on conflict contrary to the real world.
Making war having as much consequence as in reality would therefore be counterproductive.
Still the balance should not be skewed all in favor of the attacker:

1. Allow Allies to stay in Mutual Wars
2. Introduce additional Upkeep Costs for the individual War-Alliances based on
a) The member-size of each War-Alliances
b) The member-size- relation between the War-Parties.

So a small War-Alliance would have a small upkeep cost and
upkeep costs would rise for a side, if it starts to outnumber the other.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#385 - 2012-06-19 22:20:21 UTC
Talsha Talamar wrote:
If an alliance manages to get hated or feared so universally,
that a declaration of war against a small corporation
would put them in danger to become the target of an universal alliance,
then that would be a just consequence of their policies and actions.


So form an alliance. You know. Alliance. Allies.

This new "allies" system that's attached to wardecs is totally redundant.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#386 - 2012-06-19 22:42:17 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
-----Edit-----

Trolling is not permitted.

ISD Tyrozan
Ensign
Community Communications Liaisons
Interstellar Services Department
Talsha Talamar
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
#387 - 2012-06-19 23:09:58 UTC
Mechael wrote:
Talsha Talamar wrote:
If an alliance manages to get hated or feared so universally,
that a declaration of war against a small corporation
would put them in danger to become the target of an universal alliance,
then that would be a just consequence of their policies and actions.


So form an alliance. You know. Alliance. Allies.

This new "allies" system that's attached to wardecs is totally redundant.


There is a "minor" difference between political regimes or political alliances and sovereign entities.
The Allies of the USA in the last Iraq War did not give up their sovereignty and became new member states of the USA.
None ofthe Above
#388 - 2012-06-19 23:32:42 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Well given the pretty significant opposition to this particular change expressed in this and *many* other threads on the forums

"entirely though the posts of one Jade Constantine and virtually nobody else"

edit: they were also many threads because they kept getting locked due to jade melting down into a puddle of tin


I would be the "virtually nobody else"?

Somewhat appropriate I suppose, given my chosen moniker.

I would point out that we are not alone.

My impression is there is more dissenting voices about this change than there was about the Unified Inventory, before it went live anyway. We all know how well that turned out.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Nikon Nip
Doomheim
#389 - 2012-06-19 23:35:52 UTC
I honestly think the goons are scared, scared that their highsec logistic alts will get shut into a station, scared of their moon goo shipments getting repeatedly ambushed, scared that all the carebears, they have spent the last several year terrorizing, have finally said enough is enough. I'm sure when this started they had no idea that we carebears actually had some teeth, that we would band together and fight back. This war stopped being about Goonswarm v Jade a while ago, now it is Goonswarm v Highsec and they don't like it.


What happened to the post above where the goon admitted that they were scared? Kind of convenient how any post made by a goon, that supports jades proposal or admits that goons are shaking in their boots, gets taken down as "Trolling".
None ofthe Above
#390 - 2012-06-19 23:36:06 UTC
Talsha Talamar wrote:
Mechael wrote:
Talsha Talamar wrote:
If an alliance manages to get hated or feared so universally,
that a declaration of war against a small corporation
would put them in danger to become the target of an universal alliance,
then that would be a just consequence of their policies and actions.


So form an alliance. You know. Alliance. Allies.

This new "allies" system that's attached to wardecs is totally redundant.


There is a "minor" difference between political regimes or political alliances and sovereign entities.
The Allies of the USA in the last Iraq War did not give up their sovereignty and became new member states of the USA.



I get Mechael's point, the terms certainly do seem to overlap and be redundant.

But you are right, there is a big difference.

And there is something very interesting, emergent and perhaps even "effing brilliant" about loose coalitions being allowed to form around the defender of a wardec.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#391 - 2012-06-19 23:56:11 UTC
where is that popcorn I asked for????

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis ♥
Talsha Talamar
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
#392 - 2012-06-20 00:01:11 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
where is that popcorn I asked for????


Throws a handful of corn into the air and fires wildly with her Laspistol.

Popcorn Shower :)
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#393 - 2012-06-20 00:03:04 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
where is that popcorn I asked for????


On sale in the mercenary marketplace Cool

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
None ofthe Above
#394 - 2012-06-20 00:03:34 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
where is that popcorn I asked for????


Right here, but we are applying the same fee per popped kernel that you use for allies.

Don't worry, the first one is free.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#395 - 2012-06-20 00:07:52 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
where is that popcorn I asked for????


On sale in the mercenary marketplace Cool


I thought I'd get as many free as you had?

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis ♥
Nikon Nip
Doomheim
#396 - 2012-06-20 00:10:58 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
where is that popcorn I asked for????



in the mail, jiffy pop, enjoy
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#397 - 2012-06-20 00:25:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
where is that popcorn I asked for????


On sale in the mercenary marketplace Cool


I thought I'd get as many free as you had?


well 50 takes quite a lot of work you know - its not easy driving the largest alliance in the game to a foot-stamping apoplexy of impotent rage - and you need to be able to offer interesting ganks to attract the "popcorn" Blink

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
CCP Punkturis
C C P
C C P Alliance
#398 - 2012-06-20 00:26:19 UTC
Nikon Nip wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
where is that popcorn I asked for????



in the mail, jiffy pop, enjoy


thanks space friend!

♥ EVE Brogrammer ♥ Team Five 0 ♥ @CCP_Punkturis ♥
Nikon Nip
Doomheim
#399 - 2012-06-20 00:35:07 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
CCP Punkturis wrote:
where is that popcorn I asked for????


On sale in the mercenary marketplace Cool


I thought I'd get as many free as you had?


well 50 takes quite a lot of work you know - its not easy driving the largest alliance in the game to a foot-stamping apoplexy of impotent rage - and you need to be able to offer interesting ganks to attract the "popcorn" Blink



And interesting ganks have been provided, ty Jade and your forever war. I have had the time of my life blowing up goons, something that was very difficult for me before without literally emptying my corporate coffers.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#400 - 2012-06-20 00:39:29 UTC
Two step wrote:
I agree that wardecs should be risky, but the risk should depend on the target actually expending some time and effort, not just clicking yes to a pile of free ally requests that come in. Basically there needs to be some costs or limits to allies so that a defender actually needs to choose which allies they invite into a war. Without that cost/limit, it will just be abused as a way to get cheap(er) wardecs against people that would normally be expensive to declare war on, which is clearly not what was intended.


Wardecs should be risky, but all the risk should be on the defender's side? WTF?

You want to be a flaccid-phallus and wardec corps in hisec, then you want the poor fools you're wardeccing to stump the costs for defending a war they didn't want?

If wars are supposed to be risky, the defender should at the very least be allowed free allies up to the point that the defending team outnumbers the attacking team. Making a war mutual should not preclude the defenders having allies. You started the war, you wear the cost. The defender goes mutual, you're stuck in the war that you started. That's your risk.

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