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Faction Warfare Redesign Thread

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sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#21 - 2011-10-06 19:56:32 UTC
FW should not and has never been a way point for people looking to move into 0.0. I've been inside FW for over 18months and at no point has nor will it ever lead me to 0.0. Most of if not all of the people I fly with see 0.0 as a boring, lag infested and super blob using home for carebears.

We dont get massive super blobs in FW, or didn't until PL moved to mak and dropped them on anything they point, but o well.

FW needs to lose in my opinion all PVE based items. Missions are for high sec none pvp focused people, Removing them will therefore either force those only doing Mission either leave or run plexes in something other then a SB or Cloaky T3

Plexes should be the main focus for gaining LP points. Reward people for closing a plex on a sliding scale dependant on size and pilots used.

Killing a WT should reward everyone on the mail not just the final blow, and should yeild a large reward again dependant on size and pilots used.

System flipping should give out MASSIVE rewards. This alone would inspire FW wide bunker fights something I've only ever done three times, in 18months.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
Kuan Yida
Huang Yinglong
Electus Matari
#22 - 2011-10-06 21:11:30 UTC
Quote:
I think that the system needs a new face lift from scratch, otherwise it's going to not go anywhere. The current system isn't creative or fun enough for anyone involved, the people who stay do it to hang on to the PVP, not if it's FW or not.


I disagree, though it may be true from your point of view. However, being realistic, it would be more constructive to present modifications of the current framework to CCP than to propose an entire rebuild, if you expect then to listen.

The dragon knight treasures the state, friendship, duty, promises, kindness, vengeance, honor, and righteousness more than his own life._ _- The Way of the Dragon Warrior Random Posts from Auga

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#23 - 2011-10-06 21:18:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Kuan Yida wrote:
Quote:
I think that the system needs a new face lift from scratch, otherwise it's going to not go anywhere. The current system isn't creative or fun enough for anyone involved, the people who stay do it to hang on to the PVP, not if it's FW or not.


I disagree, though it may be true from your point of view. However, being realistic, it would be more constructive to present modifications of the current framework to CCP than to propose an entire rebuild, if you expect then to listen.




Team BFF did a totally different thing, starting with Null Sec ideas never presented before, throwing out ideas such as "shooting structures". I'm working with the same basis they had for reviewing Null Sec - start from the absolute basics - the total basics and build up from there.


I don't really care about what is realistic, I care about what is good and fun - CCP can figure things out from there.

Where I am.
Smofuggra
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#24 - 2011-10-06 22:21:20 UTC
From what I've read in the OP the ideas are solid and have the potential to support cohesion between the carebears and combat pilots.


You mentioned Low-sec as a point of interest... I've been giving that considerable amount of attention on my own and I think it might be the right place to start when it comes to re-igniting the wars between factions. Additionaly it would be a great way to introduce Pirate Factions into FW.

From what I've experienced indentifying with a particular group is mostly done on a meta level and via RP. Bring the pirate factions into factional warfare and make the decisions of pilots to support their respective faction more outstanding
and consequential.

This could easily be done in Low-Sec as its a no hold bar arena for the miscrient factions as well as the empire factions.

The way of doing it as I envisioned it pretty basic. But for Low-sec to be more interesting I'd propose that Soveriengty Mechanics and FW be married into a new content bundle.

Since all systems at present have the Soveriengty tab and display the ownership its not that far fetched. But consider for a moment moving in as an opposed force to make a claim on (as of now static) empire held solar systems or constellations. It would make for a dynamic Low-Sec and with addition of pirate factions give some new found areas for dedicated pirates to explore on role playing aspects.
zero2espect
Space-Brewery-Association
#25 - 2011-10-06 23:07:51 UTC
what faction warfare needs is not more logistics heavy alliance style system sieging.

faction warfare is about fast get in get out fights. not time and isk invested in assaults and sieges. 50% of militia is not in a player based corp - turning fw into sieges and battles for constellation just wont work.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#26 - 2011-10-06 23:35:08 UTC
zero2espect wrote:
what faction warfare needs is not more logistics heavy alliance style system sieging.

faction warfare is about fast get in get out fights. not time and isk invested in assaults and sieges. 50% of militia is not in a player based corp - turning fw into sieges and battles for constellation just wont work.



I don't see why those are mutually exclusive.



Not being in a player based corp and being given direction by the FW system is something a player wants, so they can feel a part of something. They don't need to be part of a corp to participate. More importantly, the system should promote people joining corporations, and joining a corporation should be a very important step in a new players experience. Staying in the militia should not be a long term goal for a player.


The system I'm discussing would cause quick "get in and get out fights" - you just need to build up to them. Currently, you are finding fights in only 3-4 systems that are in a direct line between you and the enemy. Instead, you can actually have a FULL war zone to go and find people, to intercept and interact with other militia targets.


You won't find quick and easy fights if the system is boring and people don't want to play it. It's clearly not in a healthy state right now, and it was a lot more fun about 1.5 years ago, with many various forces at play in the militias. Instead, you have one militia dominating different timezones, and the other just staying uninterested and out of the way. Fun? no. Fast fights? No.

Where I am.
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#27 - 2011-10-07 01:03:15 UTC  |  Edited by: King Rothgar
Your proposal is long and needlessly complicated. It also throws out the very essence of what FW and low sec is all about. Most of us in the militias and in low sec in general once lived in null. We left because of the mind numbingly boring nature of it combined with blobtastic lagfests. FW and indeed low sec in general should not be viewed as a stepping stone to null. They aren't, never have been and hopefully never will be. Low sec is more of a pvp arena and that arena-ish style is what draws virtually everyone to FW currently in it. It would be a dire mistake to attempt to change that.

So with that in mind, what's really needed are smaller tweaks and additions. For starters, the mission system needs to be trashed. I don't think anyone will disagree with me on that other than the mission farmers who never pvp. The LP should be tied to pvp and plex capping. Plex capping should require the eradication of the npc's in it, whether or not we keep the timer is debatable. I also think the LP/reward payout for said plexes should be set up like it is with incursions. Not the amounts mind you, but the style of how different sized groups impact it. Obviously the npc's in them need some balancing as well. As a final note on plexes, they need to be less dependent on DT. Currently the system sucks pretty hard for anyone who isn't playing 5 minutes after DT.

The current LP bounties on ships are very much a joke but I know they were set so low as to make profiting off killing your own alts impractical. I think the LP bounty can be increased by 10x without causing any alt farming issues. This would have been too much originally but with the insurance nerf it should be fine. It could go even higher for t2 and faction ships as those are basically uninsurable.

As for perks for system occupancy, free repairs and clone upgrades for the owning faction would be rather nice. I don't think locking opposing players out of npc stations would be a good move but denying them the station services would be alright. There could also be a tax rate imposed on all income (including LP) in the empires. Its rate determined by how much occupancy they have. This tax would apply to everyone in game with income in one of the major empires regardless of their neutrality or corp taxes. I wouldn't make it heavy handed, just enough to draw attention. I'm n too sure on this part though, just a thought I had while typing this.

As a final idea, I'd like to see the pirate factions brought in on it. There are no shortage of players interested in joining the blood raiders, angel cartel or any of the other seedy groups around. This does present some balancing issues with npc null however so care must be taken.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#28 - 2011-10-07 01:22:45 UTC
King Rothgar wrote:
Your proposal is long and needlessly complicated. It also throws out the very essence of what FW and low sec is all about. Most of us in the militias and in low sec in general once lived in null. We left because of the mind numbingly boring nature of it combined with blobtastic lagfests. FW and indeed low sec in general should not be viewed as a stepping stone to null. They aren't, never have been and hopefully never will be. Low sec is more of a pvp arena and that arena-ish style is what draws virtually everyone to FW currently in it. It would be a dire mistake to attempt to change that.



Low Sec isn't an Arena.


That's the attitude of people who live in Null Sec towards Low Sec. Low Sec residents treat Low Sec like a home. It's a place for them to claim actual "sovereignty" without needless mechanics - we own our space because we EXIST there.

Don't bring Null Sec perspectives to Low Sec.


The irony is, your recommendations will create the exact thing that you want to avoid - "MInd-numbingly boring nature combined with blobtastic lagfests".


The concept I've written out above is about negating most of those elements and creating a dynamic environment.


You say it yourself "That arena-ish style is what draws virtually everyone to FW currently in it..."

What people in FW? FW is almost dead in terms of activity - you can hardly get a 10-15 man fleet together on a Sunday afternoon. So you're telling me that appealing to the people that are already attracted to it is going to improve the population?

Erm, no. You attract people that AREN'T in FW to attract more people. The people attracted to the limited gamestyle of FW are clearly not sufficient in quantity. It is also intended to be an environment to get new players INTO PVP - but where are those people? They hang around very briefly and leave.

They're unskilled, incapable and overwhelmed and noone is able to guide them because all of the productive FW corps LEFT. Why? Because this "Arena-ish" style doesn't attract long term and invested players. It attracts single-minded PVPers who want immediate satisfaction, and even then they DON'T GET IT, why? Because you can't grow a garden on bullets. You have to create and manifest an environment of cooperation and competition. Not this "Arena".

Where I am.
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2011-10-07 03:51:52 UTC
King Rothgar wrote:
Your proposal is long and needlessly complicated. It also throws out the very essence of what FW and low sec is all about. Most of us in the militias and in low sec in general once lived in null. We left because of the mind numbingly boring nature of it combined with blobtastic lagfests. FW and indeed low sec in general should not be viewed as a stepping stone to null. They aren't, never have been and hopefully never will be. Low sec is more of a pvp arena and that arena-ish style is what draws virtually everyone to FW currently in it. It would be a dire mistake to attempt to change that.

So with that in mind, what's really needed are smaller tweaks and additions. For starters, the mission system needs to be trashed. I don't think anyone will disagree with me on that other than the mission farmers who never pvp. The LP should be tied to pvp and plex capping. Plex capping should require the eradication of the npc's in it, whether or not we keep the timer is debatable. I also think the LP/reward payout for said plexes should be set up like it is with incursions. Not the amounts mind you, but the style of how different sized groups impact it. Obviously the npc's in them need some balancing as well. As a final note on plexes, they need to be less dependent on DT. Currently the system sucks pretty hard for anyone who isn't playing 5 minutes after DT.

The current LP bounties on ships are very much a joke but I know they were set so low as to make profiting off killing your own alts impractical. I think the LP bounty can be increased by 10x without causing any alt farming issues. This would have been too much originally but with the insurance nerf it should be fine. It could go even higher for t2 and faction ships as those are basically uninsurable.

As for perks for system occupancy, free repairs and clone upgrades for the owning faction would be rather nice. I don't think locking opposing players out of npc stations would be a good move but denying them the station services would be alright. There could also be a tax rate imposed on all income (including LP) in the empires. Its rate determined by how much occupancy they have. This tax would apply to everyone in game with income in one of the major empires regardless of their neutrality or corp taxes. I wouldn't make it heavy handed, just enough to draw attention. I'm n too sure on this part though, just a thought I had while typing this.

As a final idea, I'd like to see the pirate factions brought in on it. There are no shortage of players interested in joining the blood raiders, angel cartel or any of the other seedy groups around. This does present some balancing issues with npc null however so care must be taken.


I just spent about 30 minutes typing up a response and CCP ate it. Instead I'll just say ditto to the above. The only caveat being we need to be very careful with implications of capturing systems. We cannot create a positive feedback loop where it becomes easier to take additional systems. In other words, if you deny docking rights, it becomes almost impossible for the defenders to retake their systems if they are forced to base in highsec. The war needs to continue forever and nobody can be allowed to "win".

.
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#30 - 2011-10-07 04:18:41 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:


What people in FW? FW is almost dead in terms of activity - you can hardly get a 10-15 man fleet together on a Sunday afternoon. So you're telling me that appealing to the people that are already attracted to it is going to improve the population?




Sorry but is pretty easy to get a pick up "hey who wants to" 10 man gang pretty much anytime after 4pm GMT. If you cant find people to fly with then you're doing something wrong.

An example of this was the "small" gang W-BR had started to just **** about not do anything much but run the pipes and talk crap. Form up started and 10minutes later we set out. 24 people were in fleet. This wasn't a CTA or planned op. Just TS talk and guys being logged in.

Not that this happens everyday but normally gangs role between 8-15 people and happen most of the day. Good FW corps are filled with people that just wanna PVP. So for most of there logged in time they are pvp'ing. Only time they go grind is when account time is running out and so they mission for a couple hours and earn a billion.

If CCP turn actually roaming for plex fights and system flipping into LP instead of borning "shoot red x" then that will only increase our activity. Getting isk for Killing WTs = WIN

Though should Pirate Faction be introduced into the system. I would be tempted.

PS CCP not all FW members are Roleplayers. In fact alot aren't at all and don't care for it. We just like the Free wardecs and open pew pew area filled with Pirates war targets and dumbass autopilot Badges that dont check there routes.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#31 - 2011-10-07 04:36:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
All the fighting in the Minmatar > Amarr happens between Auga and Kourmonen. That's not very exciting. If you keep getting entertained by a 1 jump war? You really are a small minority. 8-15 man gang? There used to be days in the militia you could easily get 50-100 man gangs every day. Why are you impressed with 8-15 man gangs? And how many times do you get fights of equal size from your opposition?


How many times do new players get to be involved in your fleets? How often are they involved? How many times are they able to say they did something useful?


Most militia pilots of 2011 I see flying around are also outlaws? Why? Because all they care about is having as many targets as they want, they don't care about "FW", they don't care about anything except lining some of their PVP stats. But it's self-consuming and short-sighted, as people tend to be. "Hey, look, all 20 of us are happy in FW - clearly it's working alright!!!"


Uh, right. FW should be more accessible and more successful at retaining different types of players than just "Arena" players. If I have to explain that to you, then you just don't get it and no amount of explanation will make you understand.


Looking over the Killboard stats, all FW is right now has nothing at all to do with "Faction War" - remove Faction Warfare, and not much would really change. You'd just have pirates shooting pirates. It was an excuse to break a few more people into a different type of gameplay where you can shoot people on gates with a War going on...


Guess what? Red Vs Blue does the same thing. Not very impressive.


Faction Warfare should be real content that involves new players, gives a different experience from the rest of EVE, and isn't another "Fight Club" nonsense like Goonz is trying to create in Delve.

Where I am.
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#32 - 2011-10-07 04:50:02 UTC  |  Edited by: sYnc Vir
I do remember the 100man gangs, were fun and just today we had a nice 50man gang but minnies ran off.

As for new people, having only joined Amarr a couple months ago everyone was new. However W-BR generally has corp heavy fleets sure. Most of the times thats at the beginning, but as we got to know people we opened our fleets and fun was had by all. Even me and that saying something.

FW is not very noob friendly I agree. Sure they can join but alot of FCs dont run open ended fleets. So some improvement their is needed.

However saying all the action takes place between Houla/Kourm/Auga isn't fair. For one I live in Kamela. (Irony being its 1 jump out) Our fleets often roam most of the Amarr/minnie pipes and we also hit the Cal/Gal area as well. We dont set limits we go were the wts are. Besides most of the systems are busy because of the mission agents. Remove the agents and you remove the reason for bedding into two or three systems.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#33 - 2011-10-07 05:03:05 UTC


Thanks for your input.


I think the FW could do with a lot more interesting dynamics, to revive it to keep it interesting and to reward the players. I don't think the current system is entertaining to people beyond those who want an "Arena" experience, but it can cater to the "Arena" PVPer but also the other elements.


My idea, regardless of its implementation, intends to get involvement on all levels - decision involvement. It actually would change nothing that currently goes on, but it will create NEW opportunities that can go down, and real PVP oriented rewards that put aside the "Stealth Bomber and Interceptor" missioning that goes that contributes to nothing.


All the FW Game Mechanics have nothing to do with each other. People are worried about ruining some PVP dynamic - and the only you can do is make it better - because right now is as simple as it gets. How can you really ruin it?

CCP will clearly not do somethings, but why shouldn't the actual players in the Empires CARE about what the militias are doing? Because they don't have a reason to care. They should. It's a story, it goes beyond one fight, it should influence people in a way that makes them wonder what these "militia" guys are doing, once and a while, in a real tangible way - not some fluff news article.

Where I am.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#34 - 2011-10-07 05:03:19 UTC
Duplicated post....

Where I am.
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2011-10-07 07:07:19 UTC
no PVE in FW

FW should be 100% about PVP, no missions. no plexes.

conquering station denys access to the other side, corp that takes that station or did the most damage to take it can set a tax to use services to all non FW members ( pirates, traders, miners)
Elise Randolph
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#36 - 2011-10-07 07:25:34 UTC
Just FYI I'm following this thread and when CCP ask for CSM input I'll definitely chime in with some stuff here if I think it's awesome. If you have any specific things or any blogs you want me to read and you don't want to post about it just eve-mail me.

~
Smofuggra
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#37 - 2011-10-07 09:52:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Smofuggra
So instead of focusing on a static selection of areas FW should encompasse and entrap all of empire to be subjected to its whims?

More accurately the system could have an incursion-esque feel to it in so far as the current point of contention is concerned. Providing arena's in highsec for combat pilots to particpate in. The areas of interest to the faction would be randomized, selecting a constellation as its war zone and lasting for a period of say a week. The constellation would be subject to pre-determined effects benefiting or punishing those within the area and be based upon the current struggle for dominance.

Further canabalizing from incursion a display in similar nature could be presented providing info on the current systems sovereignty, the balance of power, and the bonuses or ill effects attributed by these conflicts.

Thoughts?
Wendi Wu
Curiously Incompetent
#38 - 2011-10-07 10:18:10 UTC
The OP's ideas might be interesting in the long term, but I'd rather CCP dealt with FW's smaller and well-documented problems before trying a huge ambitious redesign.

Several FW players have already posted lots of good thoughts on improving FW over the past months, and I've linked to these at the bottom. My suggestions would be:


Really easy fixes (as in, less than a few hours of coding)

1. Change plex respawn mechanics so that plexes spawn throughout the day. As it is around 50% to 75% of plexes seem to spawn immediately after downtime. This makes it basically impossible for anyone who doesn't live in the right time zone to contribute to system occupancy, and encourages annoying alarm-clock ops where you HAVE to be there at exactly the right time of day (which is exactly what a lot of players joined FW to get away from!)

2. Caldari and Amarr militia should show up on overview as friendly to each other. Gallente and Minmatar militia should show up on overview as friendly to each other. At the moment they don't and not a week goes by when we don't have a friendly-fire incident as a result.

3. Massively increase the LP reward for killing enemy militia (by a factor of 10x at least). At the moment it's ridiculously low compared to what you get from missions and doesn't work at all as a reward or incentive.


Basic fixes (require some balancing, but no major rewrite of code)

4. Balance the combat effectiveness of plex and mission NPCs. Amarr NPCs are pathetically weak compared to the Minmatar ones and although I haven't tried it I've heard Gallente NPCs are similarly underpowered compared to Caldari. When one frigate can solo a level 4 mission or a "major" plex, something's wrong!

5. Give plex and mission NPCs the ability to switch targets. At the moment it's trivially easy to neutralise plex/mission NPCs by having one pilot in a frigate grab aggro and then go AFK while his allies kill everything.


Harder/more general fixes

6. Make system occupancy mean something: Everyone agrees that this should be done but there are lots of suggestions on how to do it. Some of the good ones that I've heard:

- Deny docking rights to miltia stations if you don't hold the system. It's kind of silly having 24th IC pilots docking up peacefully in Tribal Liberation Force-run stations and vice versa.
- NPC navy rats in occupied systems.
- Free station services to militia if their side holds the system, to FW stations at least.
- Major LP rewards for actually conquering a system (it's a crazy amount of work). Maybe when a system flips, give a LP reward based on how many VPs a pilot has earned in that system in the past week?

7. Do something to discourage supercap usage in FW. Both the Amarr and Minmatar militias are sick and tired of supercap blobs dropping in on what was shaping up to be an interesting fight. Even if banning supercaps in lowsec isn't an option (though I doubt most lowsec residents would complain if CCP did it) at least keep them out of the FW zone. If that's out of the question too, then hopefully the rumoured supercap nerf will make them less of an I-Win button against subcaps?


Finally, here are the suggestions that other FW players have posted on Shalee Lianne's sov-wars weblog:

Hans Jagerblitzen's editorial: http://sovereigntywars.wordpress.com/2011/09/10/editorial-hans-jagerblitzen/

Other suggestions from various experienced FWers: http://sovereigntywars.wordpress.com/2011/08/12/poll-what-changes-would-you-like-to-see-to-fw/
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#39 - 2011-10-07 10:45:32 UTC
Smells a lot like a revised version of My Vision from way back when so I can support most of it.

The biggest problem that I feel FW currently has is that all the bits and pieces are completely separate; mission whores need never enter a plex or fire at an enemy, PvP'ers need never enter a plex or run a mission and plexers ....
It is a warzone for Goddess sake! How many wars have you heard of that allowed life in the warzone to putter along as if nothing was happening .. all aspects ought to feed into and from the same underlying system (occupancy).

@Wendi:
Plex spawn mechanics are a nuisance for sure, but calling it an easy fix is contrary to what CCP has said on the matter. It is based on exploration code and using the heinous DT shuffle was the lesser evil available to avoid funky **** like FW plexes spawning in Jita and such.
To fix that bit we have to minimize the random spawning and make it more of a 'choice thing'. Could be done by introducing something like Occupancy Interdiction Node Klusters (intentional spelling error for the acronyms sake!) that can force plexes to spawn .. gives us a tool to focus fire on individual constellations at all hours of the day.
Wendi Wu
Curiously Incompetent
#40 - 2011-10-07 10:56:30 UTC
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
Plex spawn mechanics are a nuisance for sure, but calling it an easy fix is contrary to what CCP has said on the matter. It is based on exploration code and using the heinous DT shuffle was the lesser evil available to avoid funky **** like FW plexes spawning in Jita and such.
To fix that bit we have to minimize the random spawning and make it more of a 'choice thing'. Could be done by introducing something like Occupancy Interdiction Node Klusters (intentional spelling error for the acronyms sake!) that can force plexes to spawn .. gives us a tool to focus fire on individual constellations at all hours of the day.


That doesn't make any sense. It should be easy to insert a command along the lines of: "When a plex is tagged for respawning after DT, randomly generate a number between 0 and 20. Have the plex spawn that many hours after DT instead of immediately."