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Inferno 1.1 Sisi features

First post First post First post
Author
zxc Uisen
Doomheim
#621 - 2012-06-15 08:48:25 UTC  |  Edited by: zxc Uisen
St Mio wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
I am very impressed that we managed to get from trolling to serious Sun Tzu quotes. Long may it last! Here's one that I apply in wormholes but I hear also works in Nullsec

“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.”

How can you AFK cloak without local?!

log in
edit then log out
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#622 - 2012-06-15 08:55:27 UTC
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Nothing unfair about it. Nothing unfair about bringing in 5000 of your bestest buds either... Wardec'ing Bloggers because they posted things about mittens during the election?

Pretty certain no changes would've been made to the system if literally every hisec griefing corp hadn't dogpiled into every hisec war they could dogpile into.

Just sayin'.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Nomistrav
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#623 - 2012-06-15 08:57:29 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Nothing unfair about it. Nothing unfair about bringing in 5000 of your bestest buds either... Wardec'ing Bloggers because they posted things about mittens during the election?

Pretty certain no changes would've been made to the system if literally every hisec griefing corp hadn't dogpiled into every hisec war they could dogpile into.

Just sayin'.


Still don't see the problem with it. War isn't supposed to be fair or balanced, long as it's unfair for them.

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#624 - 2012-06-15 09:07:45 UTC
Nomistrav wrote:
Still don't see the problem with it. War isn't supposed to be fair or balanced, long as it's unfair for them.

War isn't supposed to be fair or balanced, that's correct. And last I checked, the changes which CCP says are coming aren't there to make wars fair or balanced, they're coming to close a loophole where some corps join what, 50-70 wars without paying a dime?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#625 - 2012-06-15 09:25:30 UTC
St Mio wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
I am very impressed that we managed to get from trolling to serious Sun Tzu quotes. Long may it last! Here's one that I apply in wormholes but I hear also works in Nullsec

“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.”

How can you AFK cloak without local?!


Float combat probes or just appear on Dscan Twisted

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

Maraner
The Executioners
#626 - 2012-06-15 10:31:40 UTC
Agree with Jade, at least try and find a mid point please CCP. This 1.1 change is too much of a nerf.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#627 - 2012-06-15 10:49:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ammzi
Two step wrote:
Come on Jade, being able to lock allies into mutual wars is clearly a really bad idea. Right now, I could form two alt corps, have them wardec each other, and then grab a bunch of free allies or even paid mercs, make the war mutual and never let them out. This is a bad thing, and these changes go a long way towards fixing that problem.

Limits on allies are not just about Goons, why would *any* corp wardec anyone else right now? If you do so, you are subjecting yourself to a possibly unlimtied number of allies. You talk about 9000 vs 100, but what about a 20 vs 20 wardec. Right now, the defender can pull in many hundreds or even thousands of allies, and there is no way a small corp would be able to deal with that.


Too bad that the wardec mechanics don't allow aggressors to get allies.
So much for the CSM knowing anything about this feature.

******* hell.

Edit: CCP, the defender might have been too powerful, but now everything is in control of the agressor.
"Oh my, too many allies. I better opt out now."
Bullshit.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#628 - 2012-06-15 14:06:14 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
Two step wrote:
Come on Jade, being able to lock allies into mutual wars is clearly a really bad idea. Right now, I could form two alt corps, have them wardec each other, and then grab a bunch of free allies or even paid mercs, make the war mutual and never let them out. This is a bad thing, and these changes go a long way towards fixing that problem.

Limits on allies are not just about Goons, why would *any* corp wardec anyone else right now? If you do so, you are subjecting yourself to a possibly unlimtied number of allies. You talk about 9000 vs 100, but what about a 20 vs 20 wardec. Right now, the defender can pull in many hundreds or even thousands of allies, and there is no way a small corp would be able to deal with that.


Too bad that the wardec mechanics don't allow aggressors to get allies.
So much for the CSM knowing anything about this feature.

******* hell.

Edit: CCP, the defender might have been too powerful, but now everything is in control of the agressor.
"Oh my, too many allies. I better opt out now."
Bullshit.


It's all gone pete tong. The 1.0 mechanics gave too much power to the defenders by bringing in too many allies and locking aggressors into wars, the new mechanics will give too little power to the defenders to make a substantial retalliation against bigger alliances. I believe soundwave made the statement that wars "shouldn't be fair", but I hope he realises that if your intentions and designs lean towards an UNFAIR system you inherently mean one side is going to lose out - the question seems to be is that side going to be aggressors or defenders? 1.0 it was aggressors, 1.1 will be defenders (again)
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
#629 - 2012-06-15 14:50:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Salpun
Nice green icon for ships cargo on the neocom.

Few tweeks and everyone will be happyBig smile

Cargo links to windows need to be active all times so we can use double click or right click to open the drop down menu and open all available cargo holds from there.

Where did the ship maintance and corp hanger right click menus go on the orca. They where there last buildSad

Shift right click-open cargo hold(2) does not open a tree free menu unless you have saved a location for that cargo hold already.

Both ships are green if you open a second cargo hold using the shift right click option in a ships-station services window.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Pirokobo
Gate Police
#630 - 2012-06-15 16:40:46 UTC
Maraner wrote:
at least try and find a mid point please CCP


Okay... how about get rid of high-sec?

Jade can bring as many allies to the table as he wants for free. No more gimmicky war "mechanics", just war.
August Guns
Generic Technologies and Futures Organization
#631 - 2012-06-15 17:03:08 UTC
Here's to hoping that CCP sees this post, but I don’t have much hope.

In regards to CCP’s changes to wardec mechanics, the adjusted costs do not scale well, removing any benefit the ally system has. It neuters CCP's stated goal of a merc marketplace. It's just cheaper and easier to use a workaround when attacking corps figure out the loophole.

It stops dog-piles from defenders while letting attackers dog-pile on one defender. Attacker cost does not scale past 500m (not counting other outgoing wardecs ofc), while defender cost scales so badly it's infeasible for small groups.

Example:

10 groups wardec one corp. They will pay, at most, 5 bil total for the wardecs, from the capped cost of 500m per wardec. The defending corp hires 10 alliances to aid it. It costs a total of 9.2b isk for the defenders to join up on just one wardec. To defend against all 10 incoming wardecs requires 92 billion isk. Titans cost that much, and that’s just for one wardec cycle.

Whoopsie.

Now, why does this matter? Because most groups in highsec are small, even the bigger griefer/mercs. But if you throw in a big powerhouse, they can't even afford to hire the numbers they'll need. Not when the aggressing corp can maintain the wardec as long as they want for pennies when the defender needs to rehire them.

So it's really just cheaper to forget the ally mechanic entirely and just have mercs wardec the aggressor (e.g.: merc corp pays, at most, 500m per attacking group since they now don’t worry about that silly scaling nonesense). You know, just like they used to.

With some inginuity, anyone can make it impossible to defend in highsec with the ally mechanics.

Example:

A group can have 10 alt corps that each declare war at the same time on one target. Their ultimate goal is a highsec tower. They have their pvp chars ready to switch to any of the 10 corps. When they see which wardecs are defended against, the pvp chars switch to the ones that don't have allies on it. They can keep their roles off, and instajoin the corp without allies on the wardec, undock, shoot tower.

Now we come to my proposals:

If CCP insists on having some sort of fee, I'd say have cost scale off of the number of people in corp/alliance making the wardec, specifically the number of people at the time the war was declared.

Second, cap the cost for defenders at something more reasonable in case the defender needs to hire more. You’re supposed to be encouraging players to use your mechanics, not penalizing them. I don’t care what the figure is, but it should be comparable to the wardec cost

Third, possibly allow for merging wars together

Forth, allow for diminishing costs when dog-piles or multiple incoming wardecs occurs. Perhaps, for each active wardec the defender has against it, the base cost for hiring allies drops. Perhaps this, too, can scale off of number of people involved. Indeed, I would say this is preferred since it allows multiple smaller groups to defend without being forced to join one group.
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
#632 - 2012-06-15 17:13:57 UTC
The look at ship you are hitting does not stick while it explods any way we can have that feature. It was mentioned in the dev video but is not on SisiTwisted

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Zedrik Cayne
Standards and Practices
#633 - 2012-06-15 18:32:54 UTC
Dorn Val wrote:
I actually see two problems: Jade expecting a war in Eve to be fair, and the Goons using the war deck system like they're a bunch of high sec griefers. The solution is simple Jade: Move to W space. Most null sec players won't follow you there because the security blanket which is local chat doesn't really exist in worm holes (suggest delayed local in null and watch all the null bears cry). Locator agents won't work either, so you can completely disappear from K space popping out only when you need to (or if you want to go hunting Goons). Moving to W space, and getting away from all of the griefing in Empire space, was one of the best decisions I've made in the game...


You cannot hide in a wormhole and pop out when you need/want to. I've stalked many folks who went hiding in wormholes. And the new locator agent 'nerf' makes this so much easier.

Sit on your agent, and keep screaming names of the people who are online and in the wormhole. Over..and over...and over again. Until he finally relents and says 'HEY! One Here!' Go there...scan your way down into his wormhole. And then invite 9000 of your best friends to make life hell.

You do not know the depths of boredom and brute force folks are willing to use should their grudge be deep enough, or the pay high enough. (Or, they are just batty...)

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon

Nomistrav
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#634 - 2012-06-15 20:01:04 UTC
August Guns wrote:
Here's to hoping that CCP sees this post, but I don’t have much hope.

In regards to CCP’s changes to wardec mechanics, the adjusted costs do not scale well, removing any benefit the ally system has. It neuters CCP's stated goal of a merc marketplace. It's just cheaper and easier to use a workaround when attacking corps figure out the loophole.

It stops dog-piles from defenders while letting attackers dog-pile on one defender. Attacker cost does not scale past 500m (not counting other outgoing wardecs ofc), while defender cost scales so badly it's infeasible for small groups.

Example:

10 groups wardec one corp. They will pay, at most, 5 bil total for the wardecs, from the capped cost of 500m per wardec. The defending corp hires 10 alliances to aid it. It costs a total of 9.2b isk for the defenders to join up on just one wardec. To defend against all 10 incoming wardecs requires 92 billion isk. Titans cost that much, and that’s just for one wardec cycle.

Whoopsie.

Now, why does this matter? Because most groups in highsec are small, even the bigger griefer/mercs. But if you throw in a big powerhouse, they can't even afford to hire the numbers they'll need. Not when the aggressing corp can maintain the wardec as long as they want for pennies when the defender needs to rehire them.

So it's really just cheaper to forget the ally mechanic entirely and just have mercs wardec the aggressor (e.g.: merc corp pays, at most, 500m per attacking group since they now don’t worry about that silly scaling nonesense). You know, just like they used to.

With some inginuity, anyone can make it impossible to defend in highsec with the ally mechanics.

Example:

A group can have 10 alt corps that each declare war at the same time on one target. Their ultimate goal is a highsec tower. They have their pvp chars ready to switch to any of the 10 corps. When they see which wardecs are defended against, the pvp chars switch to the ones that don't have allies on it. They can keep their roles off, and instajoin the corp without allies on the wardec, undock, shoot tower.

Now we come to my proposals:

If CCP insists on having some sort of fee, I'd say have cost scale off of the number of people in corp/alliance making the wardec, specifically the number of people at the time the war was declared.

Second, cap the cost for defenders at something more reasonable in case the defender needs to hire more. You’re supposed to be encouraging players to use your mechanics, not penalizing them. I don’t care what the figure is, but it should be comparable to the wardec cost

Third, possibly allow for merging wars together

Forth, allow for diminishing costs when dog-piles or multiple incoming wardecs occurs. Perhaps, for each active wardec the defender has against it, the base cost for hiring allies drops. Perhaps this, too, can scale off of number of people involved. Indeed, I would say this is preferred since it allows multiple smaller groups to defend without being forced to join one group.


I've come to the determination that, like many other pressing matters, CCP stopped listening when they got the first "I love it" post.

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama

Paul Clancy
Korpu no Byakko
#635 - 2012-06-16 10:02:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Paul Clancy
This was my bug report, but in fact it is feature request, so let's hope it'll be noted...

Thing about the 'cargo' button (left side of HUD),

Assume you have splitted out Secondary window with your cargohold. Requested following behaviour: if user pressing the cargohold button (left side of HUD), said Secondary window should open.

1. Go to space with your ship with some items in cargohold
2. Open inventory, split out the cargohold with shift-click.
3. Collapse the new window, or let it stay
4. Now click the button on left side of HUD. You'll see the Primary window opens.

While in fact there should be opened Secondary cargo window, be it active. out of focus, collapsed or closed (but still memorized)
Fizzie Kaufman
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#636 - 2012-06-16 17:40:49 UTC
About the War Dec changes,

I agree they needed to be done, but I agree with something I read somewhere in this thread. If someone greatly out numbers one side, then the smaller side should be able to recruit up to about equal number of people for free, or at least at a much cheaper rate. And then when they reach the size of the aggressor corporation, they can continue to add allies, but in doing so, would allow the aggressor corporation to hire there own allies, to keep the numbers about even.

Another something I think would go well with War Decs, is the idea that the price of a War Dec to scale according to the size difference between the sides, granted with it being cheaper on the aggressors side. So it may cost 500 mil for a small corporation to Dec a huge corporation, but for said huge corporation to Dec the smaller corporation would cost say, somewhere between 1/2 and 3/4 the 500 mil it would cost the smaller corporation. And the closer the size of the corporations the cheaper it would be,, down to the minimum cost for similar sized corporations.

On top of that, you could possibly add the number of Allied pilots into the size difference calculation, but IMO, it would be better if they were counted at a slightly reduced rate since they are allies, not actually originally part of the war.

Some of this may have been said before, and im sorry if someone is upset that I dont credit them, but I just cant be asked to go back thru and find them all again. Lol

Just my 2 cents worth of ideas
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#637 - 2012-06-17 07:28:57 UTC
Fizzie Kaufman wrote:
About the War Dec changes,

I agree they needed to be done, but I agree with something I read somewhere in this thread. If someone greatly out numbers one side, then the smaller side should be able to recruit up to about equal number of people for free, or at least at a much cheaper rate. And then when they reach the size of the aggressor corporation, they can continue to add allies, but in doing so, would allow the aggressor corporation to hire there own allies, to keep the numbers about even.

Another something I think would go well with War Decs, is the idea that the price of a War Dec to scale according to the size difference between the sides, granted with it being cheaper on the aggressors side. So it may cost 500 mil for a small corporation to Dec a huge corporation, but for said huge corporation to Dec the smaller corporation would cost say, somewhere between 1/2 and 3/4 the 500 mil it would cost the smaller corporation. And the closer the size of the corporations the cheaper it would be,, down to the minimum cost for similar sized corporations.

On top of that, you could possibly add the number of Allied pilots into the size difference calculation, but IMO, it would be better if they were counted at a slightly reduced rate since they are allies, not actually originally part of the war.

Some of this may have been said before, and im sorry if someone is upset that I dont credit them, but I just cant be asked to go back thru and find them all again. Lol

Just my 2 cents worth of ideas


Please don't try to use the war system to enforce some artifial sense of fair play. It's a war not an e-sporting event. It has nothing to do with fair or equal sides fighting each other in honourable combat. You can use it for that, but it should never be reduced to that. If that is what you want, make 2 corps who fight in an eternal mutual war and follow a set of your own rules to keep things even. You know, something like RvB already does.

Generally speaking if a corp has a superior military wing, it should be able to leverage it to gain an advantage over the target corp. The target already has the option to hire or request help from a few sources very cheaply to even up the odds or even gain the advantage. All this comes at a somewhat balanced cost, although the cost of bringing more allies should also be capped to some reasonable level, and people shouldn't get any special treatment just because of their size.

Relying on size is also bad because the number of combat pilots varies, as does the number of people taking part in the war effort and it would allow war cost manipulation by using a properly sized alt corp to initiate the fight. For example a industry/mission running corp of 50 pilots would propably not appreciate the fact, that a corp of 50 murderous PvP veterans can get a discount when wardeccing them and as a bonus can invite rest of their friends in on the fun after the initial bill has been paid. It's much more preferable to use a simple system with as few loopholes as possible for deciding wardec costs, that doesn't try to funnel the use of wardecs to some specific usage or purpose. It's a sandbox, so the players are the ones who create the reasons and goals, so the system should be as flexible as possible, while being kept balanced by CCP with the overall gameplay in mind.
Sutha Moliko
Giza'Msafara
#638 - 2012-06-17 08:19:51 UTC
Did anyone have time to learn the new skill "Armor Resistance Phasing" to confirm it works as intended ?
Thank you for the report.

One skill rank 5 for one module. It has to be efficient. Same goes with the "Target Breaker Amplification".
Blue Harrier
#639 - 2012-06-17 14:28:39 UTC
Reported these as 'bugs' on SiSi;

When launching core probes from a Helios there is no 'Launch' sound as the probe is launched into space.

Also the 'warp to position' sound only seems to sound when the probes are set to 4AU or less in area.

There is also still a small burst of static or compressed ambient sound at the end of the 'Jump' or 'Dock' sound when jumping through a gate or docking.

None of the above are game breaking, just annoying.

And got this reply;
The problem you have described is an intended game feature or function, and not a bug.
Shocked.

Also from testing on SiSi;
Dragging and dropping a ship from either the 'Ship Hanger' view via the 'Tree' or from the merged 'Ships and Items' view on the 'Station services' panel does not update the 'Active Ship's cargo hold' window. That is very annoying as you have to check which hold on which ship you are actually looking at.
You also need to either, close then re-open the window to change views or double click to open a new view.

I also made the mistake of loading the wrong hold and undocked only to find the goods still in station Roll.

Finally, from rolling a new alt;
Why is there a small green star against all my corpmates but not against my alt in chat windows?
From a new pilots point of view this looks like everyone without a star belongs to your corp and those with a star belong to another corp. I know it's been like it for years but just wondered why Blink

"You wait - time passes, Thorin sits down and starts singing about gold." from The Hobbit on ZX Spectrum 1982.

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#640 - 2012-06-17 14:38:58 UTC
There's sound in eve?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat