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New dev blog: Inferno 1.1 Changes To the War Dec System

First post First post First post
Author
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe
#261 - 2012-06-15 08:38:56 UTC
Kneejerk wardec fixes just make it worse. The 1.1 version will make wardecs a toy for the big alliances.
Jade may be a rabid tinfoil poster, but he's right about that.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#262 - 2012-06-15 08:58:32 UTC
CCP Punkturis wrote:
hummm how was it indicated in the old one?
we just display the time a war ends because it's within 24 hours.. so if it says 16:00 it means next time it's 16:00


Putting yourself in the situation of the users is the most common thing developers ignore because they are overconfident or busy realizing their own ideas... It's good to know we have developers listening, but still be carefull in the first place to remove or simplify stuff. I still remember someone removing that window pinning option because "nobody used it".

Not everybody has Eve Online running at all times even if we try to and to avoid confusion it's important for many people to get an exact date and time on subjects like this... Especially on eve mails because people sometimes have to go through a few of them evemails after a short break.

Pinky
DangerosoDavo
Boob Heads
#263 - 2012-06-15 09:35:28 UTC
bad changes, terrible CCP
Sacrifixe
NED-Clan
Goonswarm Federation
#264 - 2012-06-15 09:37:46 UTC
If you all are so eager to fight us get all your ally's and your cryboats to Deklein. So you can fight us for FREE!!
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#265 - 2012-06-15 10:24:20 UTC
Sacrifixe wrote:
If you all are so eager to fight us get all your ally's and your cryboats to Deklein. So you can fight us for FREE!!


Nobody wants to fight you in Deklein. You have NAP'd virtually the whole of 0.0 already. We wanted to kick your teeth for the next couple of years in empire, but it seems the game is being changed to make it more FAIR for you thus removing that option.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#266 - 2012-06-15 12:55:28 UTC
DangerosoDavo wrote:
bad changes, terrible CCP


Very constructive. Thx.

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#267 - 2012-06-15 12:58:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Jade Constantine wrote:
Sacrifixe wrote:
If you all are so eager to fight us get all your ally's and your cryboats to Deklein. So you can fight us for FREE!!


Nobody wants to fight you in Deklein. You have NAP'd virtually the whole of 0.0 already. We wanted to kick your teeth for the next couple of years in empire, but it seems the game is being changed to make it more FAIR for you thus removing that option.


Yet, again, GSF actually want the war with you. The only person who thinks they don't is you.

You are such a ******* tired record by now, you really are.

I'm pretty sure GSF are going to keep the war live on you, so I don't know why you're saying that option is gone, you're just going to have to work with it differently.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#268 - 2012-06-15 12:59:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
You ignored my posts completely again by the way, and went back to selectively quoting other people and spouting the same false rhetoric.

Please answer them or the discussion is pointless.

In particular if you can tell us why your allies are anything other than dogpiled corps who want to shoot anyone, and don't care who that is : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1475469#post1475469

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#269 - 2012-06-15 13:20:08 UTC
The wardec shenanigans are just stupid. You say you don't want war to be fair, then someone dogpiles against an aggressor unfairly and you rush out a fix... urhghgh.

Here's an idea: Keep the 1.0 mechanics, but make it so turning the war mutual removes allies / the ability to have allies. That way small defenders can dogpile against bigger aggressors and potentially win, but they can't then trap the aggressor / force them to surrender through the mutual-war mechanic
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#270 - 2012-06-15 13:27:29 UTC
its fun to watch the mechanic ping pong between heavily skewed in favour of the aggressor to heavily skewed in favour of the defender, then back to aggressor... defender... aggressor...

the huge amount of tinfoil hattery and even larger amount of crap-posting/"PR" from goons is bloody annoying, however
Letrange
Chaosstorm Corporation
#271 - 2012-06-15 13:43:47 UTC
Kneejerk reactions would be best explained by removing the word Knee.

One can only assume that this has nothing to do with "Mercenary Marketplace" but ONLY to do with the Mittani and various Null sec alliance CSM representatives hitting the Dev Bat-phone. Nice to see CCP backsliding as usual after the un-natural forward progress of Crucible.

One can see that the philosophy of EVE developers is: "You will reap the consequences of your actions - unless you're Goons"

Dear devs, would you please HARDEN THE **** UP.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#272 - 2012-06-15 13:55:33 UTC
Letrange wrote:
Kneejerk reactions would be best explained by removing the word Knee.

One can only assume that this has nothing to do with "Mercenary Marketplace" but ONLY to do with the Mittani and various Null sec alliance CSM representatives hitting the Dev Bat-phone. Nice to see CCP backsliding as usual after the un-natural forward progress of Crucible.

One can see that the philosophy of EVE developers is: "You will reap the consequences of your actions - unless you're Goons"

Dear devs, would you please HARDEN THE **** UP.


I'm pretty sure I remember a bunch of people pointing out how the ally system would destroy mercs before the patch came out. And they were ignored and the mechanics rushed out anyway. Funny timing with them realising there was an issue that needs to be addressed though, and incredibly funny how fast the fix was pushed out.
None ofthe Above
#273 - 2012-06-15 15:21:59 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
The wardec shenanigans are just stupid. You say you don't want war to be fair, then someone dogpiles against an aggressor unfairly and you rush out a fix... urhghgh.

Here's an idea: Keep the 1.0 mechanics, but make it so turning the war mutual removes allies / the ability to have allies. That way small defenders can dogpile against bigger aggressors and potentially win, but they can't then trap the aggressor / force them to surrender through the mutual-war mechanic


I seem to recall that this (no allies in a mutual war) was the original way they where going to do things, then for some reason it didn't get implemented that way.

I have to admit, I am starting to favor the more epic "let both sides recruit unlimited allies in a mutual war". Now that would be a mechanic worthy of the title "Inferno".

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

Cassius Marcellus
BRG Corp
#274 - 2012-06-15 15:26:03 UTC

Some of the 1.1 changes do make it look like CCP wants to re-instate the "pay to grief" aspect of high sec wars, and protect large alliances from emergent consequences of their actions.

I do like the idea that mutual wars should exclude allies. But I think that the new costs for defender allies have now been set too high for most of EVE's player corporations except for the largest, and that two weeks is too short of an ally cycle (one month makes a lot more sense to me). If the giant alliances want to exert Null Sec influence in High Sec, it should cost them more than it costs the defenders. Well, unless you want to favor everyone having to join one of the big alliances (and that doesn't seem like a good way to keep growing the customer base from new market opportunities).

As for mercenary corporations -- if they want merc ISK, let them do the hard stuff they've always been paid to do and not be lsckluster "me too!" defenders on war decs for lazy ISK. The good ones get paid well anyway for the things they do. And soon enough they'll also have a role in supporting DUST 514 endeavours, as well.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#275 - 2012-06-15 15:45:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
People are *still* talking about how this benefits large alliances and completely ignoring 99.9% of EvE.

Can anyone exactly explain how? You realise you can go shoot them in nullsec, for free, all day every day right? You realise absolutely nothing in this change STOPS you from forming a large "coalition" to go and fight nullsec powerblocks, right?

Do you also realise the self same groups were wardeccing the Goons before the change, and paying a small 50-150mil a week to do it?

Given your answers to the above, do you really want a mechanic which is designed to be usable only in the case of a large alliance wardeccing you?

If people could take "goons" off their brains for 2seconds they'd see the change for what it is.

I'm coming to understand that none of you are able to do this. Pity.

Jade keeps telling us about his "mighty coalition of allies who have banded together" but still dodges basic questions about them, such as whether he has even spoken to the people pressing "ally all" in their Neocom. Someone who wants to "shoot goons for free" (his words) is not an ally fighting for his ideals.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Cassius Marcellus
BRG Corp
#276 - 2012-06-15 15:52:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassius Marcellus
Khanh'rhh wrote:
People are *still* talking about how this benefits large alliances and completely ignoring 99.9% of EvE.

Can anyone exactly explain how? You realise you can go shoot them in nullsec, for free, all day every day right? You realise absolutely nothing in this change STOPS you from forming a large "coalition" to go and fight nullsec powerblocks, right?


I'm talking about perceptions and growing the EVE player base, myself. But you do seem focused on the Goons -- remember that we're talking about growing new players from sources other than places like the SA forums, and how they view ALL large alliances. Shocked It's not just about the Goons (sorry; you guys are important, but you're not THAT important).

Edit:
To be fair, I'm not saying that Khanh'rhh is a Goon; he's in Sudden Buggery. But I think this is much more than just a pissing contest between the CFC and Jade "Wall o'Text" Constantine. It's how new players see things when they come into EVE and start learning the ropes.
Laashanna
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#277 - 2012-06-15 16:15:53 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Orakkus wrote:
I highly disagree with this:

Quote:
There is a cost now associated with hiring lots of allies. You are still free to hire as many allies as you want, but there is an increasing cost in doing so. Refer to this:

•Ally #1 – Free!
•Ally #2 – 10 million
•Ally #3 – 20 million
•Ally #4 – 40 million
•Ally #5 – 80 million
•and so on…


I think this point alone discourages smaller alliances and corporations from defending against large, generally better funded, alliances. And to be honest, this sounds too much like the Mittani's influence because of what happened between Goons and Star Fraction. Smaller alliances should have the ability to contract as many allies as they need.. without financial cost.


Limiting the number of allies is feedback we've gotten from the merc industry, I'm not sure Goons care. If they do, they haven't voiced it to us vOv.


So basically you are saying you are ignoring the forums and sites like eve news. Because I barely read anything and I've heard the Goons whining.
Laashanna
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#278 - 2012-06-15 16:25:43 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
AMirrorDarkly wrote:
Wow, this shifts War decs firmly back to the advantage of the aggressor, I expected some sort of rebalance in light of what's happend with Goons getting a taste of their own medicine but this seems like it's gone the other way again.... Shame Sad


The biggest issue was that being able to invite everyone and the kitchen sink to your war meant that hiring a merc became completely irrelevant. Hopefully limiting the options slightly will provide people with more incentives to hire mercs (but still let you throw a ton of money at allies).


Hiring Mercs has always been irrelevant, and always will be. Why because there is no point unless you have a fixed target like a POS or something. Why would I ever hire a Merc to join a war. Either the aggressor hides from the mercs, or the mercs suck so much that the aggressor wants the war to continue. I'm better off hiding off for a week, leaving corp or playing another game. What you need to do to fix wars is to force the aggressor to put up some isk, and a structure some where. Then the defender would be able to force a fight to bring a war to a close. Then it would make sense to hire mercs.


PS- Most of your professional mercs are trade hub and pipe gankers who refuse to go out huntung a war target, and dock up at the mere hint of a fair fight. In short worthless as most aggressors do the same thing, and the aggressor has lots of neutral alts....
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#279 - 2012-06-15 16:32:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Cassius Marcellus wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
People are *still* talking about how this benefits large alliances and completely ignoring 99.9% of EvE.

Can anyone exactly explain how? You realise you can go shoot them in nullsec, for free, all day every day right? You realise absolutely nothing in this change STOPS you from forming a large "coalition" to go and fight nullsec powerblocks, right?


I'm talking about perceptions and growing the EVE player base, myself. But you do seem focused on the Goons -- remember that we're talking about growing new players from sources other than places like the SA forums, and how they view ALL large alliances. Shocked It's not just about the Goons (sorry; you guys are important, but you're not THAT important).

Edit:
To be fair, I'm not saying that Khanh'rhh is a Goon; he's in Sudden Buggery. But I think this is much more than just a pissing contest between the CFC and Jade "Wall o'Text" Constantine. It's how new players see things when they come into EVE and start learning the ropes.


As a member of BUGRY, members 50, we were wardecced by a small corp, members 15, who had a massive grudge against us because we'd pulled down their space trousers and did our namesake.

Day 1-4 of the war led to a handful of engagements.

Day 5 saw inferno.

By Day 6, we had 15 allies for a total of 250-300 people. We actually also were the first corp to receive an ally under the new system, toot.

By Day 10 we had almost 900 allies from 25corps (mostly the exact same ones "helping" Jade and every single other corp. One of our allies was a 5man corp in 50wars).

We paid for none, we spoke to none.

The wartargets didn't bother undocking again, because any concept of who was fighting who was completely lost in the mire.

This story repeated itself across every war going, every aggressed party effectively had every "merc" working for them, for free.

Nothing constuctive came of this except Jita 4-4 was a sea of Red for anyone who had issued a wardec. Goons lost every ship that passed through Jita, just like they'd lost every ship that passed through Jita pre-inferno. It doesn't take 900 people to nab the silly JF pilot or the autopilot badger.

This was not good. This broke the wardec system completely.

Now, Jade will tell you this change is all about Goonswarm (and if you think he's climbed down from insane conspiracy theories, he just wrote this: http://www.evenews24.com/2012/06/15/eve-online-inferno-scorches-the-mittani%E2%80%99s-knickers-ccp-turns-down-the-heat/ ) because having you think that suits his agenda, regardless of the fact highsec being "too safe" is on the goons grudge list, and would happily have a permadec to everyone (literally, it's one of their griefing plans).

It isn't. It's literally about everyone else, since the only people who are able to effectively wardec WITH the dogpiles ARE the very large alliances.

Do you see now, the issue?

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#280 - 2012-06-15 16:38:49 UTC
Laashanna wrote:
So basically you are saying you are ignoring the forums and sites like eve news. Because I barely read anything and I've heard the Goons whining.


Link?

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,