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Inferno 1.1 Sisi features

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Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#601 - 2012-06-14 14:40:41 UTC
Greg Valanti wrote:
im mrmessy wrote:
How about something that fixes the wardec pile ons. Goonswarm has 37 corps allied with one war target. I have no idea on how to fix this or make it less annoying


CCP Goliath wrote:

• Ally contracts have fixed length of two weeks
• Allies can not be part of mutual wars – defender cannot hire allies into mutual wars and existing ally contracts are cancelled (with a 24 hour grace period)
• Added cost for hiring multiple allies for a war – hiring more than one ally now incur a cost that goes to CONCORD. The cost rises exponentially the more allies are hired into the same war.
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#602 - 2012-06-14 16:28:35 UTC
Lallante wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:


I think the biggest issue here is that we're trying to solve different issues. I'm trying to bring the merc trade back into EVE and you're trying to add some measure of fairness into wars, which Isn't really a design philosophy in EVE.

Why would I want to balance a fight? That's never really been the goal in EVE and the war dec system wasn't built for that either. I understand that it's annoying when a big alliance war decs you, but that's hardly new to EVE. Big alliances get annoyed with bigger coalitions outnumber them and so on. That's a fact of life in EVE and we're not likely to change that direction anytime soon. The other thing is that war dec prices are determined by the value you get from them. If you want to go to war with someone, a higher number of potential targets should be more expensive. If you're a smaller alliance, this makes you a less attractive target, unless you've made someone angry in which case you're responsible for any social repercussions you've created.


Sorry mate but you are missing a trick here - its not about forcing fairness through mechanics, its about not PREVENTING the defender from evening the odds itself. Its absolutely in keeping with the Eve sandbox philosophy that the outcome of a war is down to player actions, metagaming (i.e. finding the right allies, paying them, etc) rather than incredibly restrictive mechanics that FORCE the defender to fight vastly outnumbered or stump up enormous amounts of cash.

You arent introducing forced fairness by implementing Jade's proposals, you are giving the players the tools needed to ensure fairness or unfairness as they see fit. Most, maybe even all empire corporations wont have the allies or isk to buy them necessary to match, say, Goonswarm's numbers man for man - there aren't many situations where this will make things "fair" but what it will do is stop actively forcing them to accept the unfair position (i.e. that they cant bring in more allies or have their friends wardec back because the mechanics make it prohibitively expensive to do so).

Basically the way you are proposing it means a large alliance can wardec whichever small entities they want and are protected from being wardecced back or from allies joining the fight. The numbers restrictions only hurt the defending side!
Quote:


Letting attackers add allies conflicts with the notion that attacking someone is risky. If you decide you want to go to war with someone, the consequence is that he could punch harder than you anticipated. If this is just about stacking up allies, the power of that choice fades away a little bit.


There isn't really any real risk for a 5000 man alliance wardeccing a 50 man corp. Even if they punch 10x harder than expected this is still a drop in the ocean to the 5000 man alliance. Meanwhile the 50 man corp can neither bring in significant numbers of allies (unless it just invites in one super-massive ally), nor can it get its friends to wardec the 5000 man alliance withou incurring what will be a prohibitively high cost for most small entities.

Worth re-posting this reply.

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#603 - 2012-06-14 17:10:38 UTC
Ok just one thing

A lot of you seem to think that goonswarms numbers are somehow unfair.

Well they are not, they weren't given those numbers, they accuired those numbers through a lot of work. Its not easy to hold an alliance like that together.

The basic idea that a 50 man corp should be able to fight a 5000 man alliance is just silly.. They will and SHOULD get crushed in any normal fight. They could however manage to get a very high kill/loss ratio with some clever tactics and guerrilla warfare..


Eve isn't fair, Its not supposed to be fair. The goons have massed thousands of players together and now they reap the benefits from that achievement, Deal with it?

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#604 - 2012-06-14 17:58:12 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Ok just one thing

A lot of you seem to think that goonswarms numbers are somehow unfair.

Well they are not, they weren't given those numbers, they accuired those numbers through a lot of work. Its not easy to hold an alliance like that together.

The basic idea that a 50 man corp should be able to fight a 5000 man alliance is just silly.. They will and SHOULD get crushed in any normal fight. They could however manage to get a very high kill/loss ratio with some clever tactics and guerrilla warfare..


Eve isn't fair, Its not supposed to be fair. The goons have massed thousands of players together and now they reap the benefits from that achievement, Deal with it?

Nothing unfair about it. Nothing unfair about bringing in 5000 of your bestest buds either... Wardec'ing Bloggers because they posted things about mittens during the election?

Guess GSF / CFC is taking Eve pretty seriously nowadays...

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#605 - 2012-06-14 19:05:22 UTC
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Ok just one thing

A lot of you seem to think that goonswarms numbers are somehow unfair.

Well they are not, they weren't given those numbers, they accuired those numbers through a lot of work. Its not easy to hold an alliance like that together.

The basic idea that a 50 man corp should be able to fight a 5000 man alliance is just silly.. They will and SHOULD get crushed in any normal fight. They could however manage to get a very high kill/loss ratio with some clever tactics and guerrilla warfare..


Eve isn't fair, Its not supposed to be fair. The goons have massed thousands of players together and now they reap the benefits from that achievement, Deal with it?

Nothing unfair about it. Nothing unfair about bringing in 5000 of your bestest buds either... Wardec'ing Bloggers because they posted things about mittens during the election?

Guess GSF / CFC is taking Eve pretty seriously nowadays...



Nope, nothing unfair about that either.. Its not nice..

But not unfair.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Nomistrav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#606 - 2012-06-14 19:47:31 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Ok just one thing

A lot of you seem to think that goonswarms numbers are somehow unfair.

Well they are not, they weren't given those numbers, they accuired those numbers through a lot of work. Its not easy to hold an alliance like that together.

The basic idea that a 50 man corp should be able to fight a 5000 man alliance is just silly.. They will and SHOULD get crushed in any normal fight. They could however manage to get a very high kill/loss ratio with some clever tactics and guerrilla warfare..


Eve isn't fair, Its not supposed to be fair. The goons have massed thousands of players together and now they reap the benefits from that achievement, Deal with it?

Nothing unfair about it. Nothing unfair about bringing in 5000 of your bestest buds either... Wardec'ing Bloggers because they posted things about mittens during the election?

Guess GSF / CFC is taking Eve pretty seriously nowadays...



Nope, nothing unfair about that either.. Its not nice..

But not unfair.


Yes it is, otherwise they wouldn't be changing it. It's not fair that you and all of your closest supporters can dog-pile and cause an unexpected punch to the groin that was completely unsuspecting and caught the aggressor completely unaware because it was completely unintended. That's why they're changing it, it's not fair that they get in for free.

Hence, yanno, the billions of isk they're now going to have to pay -every two weeks- where as the aggressor will never have to pay more than half a billion. Makes -total- sense now and it's completely fair and balanced.

If you haven't figured it out now this entire response is entirely sarcasm.

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#607 - 2012-06-14 19:56:59 UTC
Nomistrav wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Ok just one thing

A lot of you seem to think that goonswarms numbers are somehow unfair.

Well they are not, they weren't given those numbers, they accuired those numbers through a lot of work. Its not easy to hold an alliance like that together.

The basic idea that a 50 man corp should be able to fight a 5000 man alliance is just silly.. They will and SHOULD get crushed in any normal fight. They could however manage to get a very high kill/loss ratio with some clever tactics and guerrilla warfare..


Eve isn't fair, Its not supposed to be fair. The goons have massed thousands of players together and now they reap the benefits from that achievement, Deal with it?

Nothing unfair about it. Nothing unfair about bringing in 5000 of your bestest buds either... Wardec'ing Bloggers because they posted things about mittens during the election?

Guess GSF / CFC is taking Eve pretty seriously nowadays...



Nope, nothing unfair about that either.. Its not nice..

But not unfair.


Yes it is, otherwise they wouldn't be changing it. It's not fair that you and all of your closest supporters can dog-pile and cause an unexpected punch to the groin that was completely unsuspecting and caught the aggressor completely unaware because it was completely unintended. That's why they're changing it, it's not fair that they get in for free.

Hence, yanno, the billions of isk they're now going to have to pay -every two weeks- where as the aggressor will never have to pay more than half a billion. Makes -total- sense now and it's completely fair and balanced.

If you haven't figured it out now this entire response is entirely sarcasm.


Sorry i wrongly used the term fair there.

Obviously it isn't fair. But the world isn't fair and eve isn't fair.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#608 - 2012-06-15 00:32:52 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Ok just one thing

A lot of you seem to think that goonswarms numbers are somehow unfair.

Well they are not, they weren't given those numbers, they accuired those numbers through a lot of work. Its not easy to hold an alliance like that together.

The basic idea that a 50 man corp should be able to fight a 5000 man alliance is just silly.. They will and SHOULD get crushed in any normal fight. They could however manage to get a very high kill/loss ratio with some clever tactics and guerrilla warfare..


Eve isn't fair, Its not supposed to be fair. The goons have massed thousands of players together and now they reap the benefits from that achievement, Deal with it?


Yet one of the stated reasons for nerfing the Inferno allies for free "dogpile" was because it wasn't FAIR (on mercs and large alliances). So by the logic of the developers it should be perfect right?

Either Eve is supposed to be FAIR or it isn't - but Having it FAIR for one side and not the other is just double standards.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Noriko Mai
#609 - 2012-06-15 01:13:36 UTC
Good job with the Capture Status numbers. It's now sorted correctly.

"Meh.." - Albert Einstein
Courthouse
Perkone
Caldari State
#610 - 2012-06-15 03:01:53 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Yet one of the stated reasons for nerfing the Inferno allies for free "dogpile" was because it wasn't FAIR (on mercs and large alliances). So by the logic of the developers it should be perfect right?


Im pretty sure what isn't "FAIR" on mercs is that when you make the wardec on your ****** whatever space guild mutual, they get stuck in a permanent wardec against US and costs nothing.

It's almost like it's exactly opposite what the intention of the wardec system overhaul is about.

Also, if you'd like I can get you numbers for our highsec pvp group, but I'm pretty sure you aren't fighting against 9000+ GSF members, more like 100 because most of us can't be assed to enter your side of the ghetto, even for a good ol' fashioned pogrom.
Pirokobo
Game.Theory
GameTheory
#611 - 2012-06-15 03:20:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Pirokobo
Tanaka Sekigahara wrote:

Why would you want to balance a fight.? Fair question, let me answer.

ANYONE with ANY knowledge of war, or warfare ( being different from a " fight", singular) knows that when 2 forces are fairly evenly balanced, they fight. when they are not, they do not fight.It's very simple, really.


It is the rule in war, if our forces are ten to the enemy's one, to surround him; if five to one, to attack him; if twice as numerous, to divide our army into two. If equally matched, WE CAN offer battle; if slightly inferior in numbers, we can avoid the enemy; if quite unequal in every way, we can flee from him.
-Sun Tsu, TWO THOUSANDShocked YEARS AGO

Note the emphasis on "five to one" and "we can". Equally matched armies shouldn't on principle attack one another unless one is or will soon be in a disadvantaged position by not attacking. That is the meaning of "can offer battle". CAN and SHOULD being very different.

Sun Tzu was very specific in saying that an army SHOULD engage when it outnumbers the enemy overwhelmingly. But they still can meet an engagement without needing to flee if the odds are even. But that doesn't mean an army should initiate on even odds, and in practice few armies ever truly do meet under even terms with even numbers and battle to the annihilation of one side. Much more often it is the case that one side will be outmaneuvered if they do not act and so must act to avoid a more certain defeat.

Armies just don't meet, look at each other and say "Yeah, this looks fair" and go at it. They make camp and try to figure out what to do to make the odds favor them a bit more.
Nomistrav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#612 - 2012-06-15 04:02:54 UTC
Fact of the matter is that if it can be abused it will be abused, and I can see Large Alliances taking the opportunity to engage in legal wars -just to do it-. Let's be real here, Hulkaggeddon happens -because it can-.

For the cost of a single PLEX I can engage war with whoever I want, regardless of the numbers and the only thing I have to worry about is whether or not they're willing to spend the billions of isk to have a fighting chance,

OR

Do what this problem was designed to solve and just leave their ****ing corporation to avoid the war entirely.

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama
Courthouse
Perkone
Caldari State
#613 - 2012-06-15 05:15:41 UTC
unironic Sun Tsu in this thread
Nomistrav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#614 - 2012-06-15 05:33:36 UTC
Pirokobo wrote:


Armies just don't meet, look at each other and say "Yeah, this looks fair" and go at it. They make camp and try to figure out what to do to make the odds favor them a bit more.


That makes sense, but on level terrain where Guerilla warfare is key against outstanding odds. 300 Spartans didn't hold their ground against millions of Persians at the Battle of Thermopylae with Concord/Game Mechanics making sure that they, in fact, paid to have the few thousand Greeks on their side, nor did they have literally astronomical units of open space in -every- three dimensional direction, nor were there security statuses that prevented other nations/armies of Greece from joining the fray unless they aptly paid their damn dues.

This is a joke, to say the least. Aggressors having to pay to start a war was one thing but now "war" in Eve is going to be who can afford to extend the "war" as long as possible until the other side breaks. Can force the opposition into surrender just by sitting in station for long periods of time.

You want a -real- Sun Tzu quote that actually relates to this? Here's one:

"If our soldiers are not overburdened with money, it is not because they have a distaste for riches"

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama
zxc Uisen
Doomheim
#615 - 2012-06-15 05:48:27 UTC  |  Edited by: zxc Uisen
Quick question here, since i haven't seen information on that subject: will the renewal bill for active wardecs account for the amount of people allied, as well as the defendants?
I ask, because the attacker gets extra targets, which is the point of the wardec bill in the first place.
Dorn Val
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#616 - 2012-06-15 07:09:53 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
...What the CSM has been hiding is that Trebor Daehdoow is actually "Future Mittani" - sent back through a wormhole in order to rewrite history...


I knew it! That's why you never see them together in the same room...

Sandbox: An enclosed area filled with sand for children engaged in open-ended, unstructured, imaginative play. Also a place for cats to urinate and defecate...
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#617 - 2012-06-15 08:32:16 UTC
I am very impressed that we managed to get from trolling to serious Sun Tzu quotes. Long may it last! Here's one that I apply in wormholes but I hear also works in Nullsec

“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.”

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
Dorn Val
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#618 - 2012-06-15 08:33:50 UTC
I actually see two problems: Jade expecting a war in Eve to be fair, and the Goons using the war deck system like they're a bunch of high sec griefers. The solution is simple Jade: Move to W space. Most null sec players won't follow you there because the security blanket which is local chat doesn't really exist in worm holes (suggest delayed local in null and watch all the null bears cry). Locator agents won't work either, so you can completely disappear from K space popping out only when you need to (or if you want to go hunting Goons). Moving to W space, and getting away from all of the griefing in Empire space, was one of the best decisions I've made in the game...

Sandbox: An enclosed area filled with sand for children engaged in open-ended, unstructured, imaginative play. Also a place for cats to urinate and defecate...
Nomistrav
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#619 - 2012-06-15 08:40:04 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
I am very impressed that we managed to get from trolling to serious Sun Tzu quotes. Long may it last! Here's one that I apply in wormholes but I hear also works in Nullsec

“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.”


I still stand beside the ideal that it shouldn't take a Jita riot in order to get the point across, lol.

"As long as space endures,

as long as sentient beings exist,

until then, may I too remain

and dispel the miseries of the world."

~ Vremaja Idama
St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#620 - 2012-06-15 08:43:08 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
I am very impressed that we managed to get from trolling to serious Sun Tzu quotes. Long may it last! Here's one that I apply in wormholes but I hear also works in Nullsec

“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.”

How can you AFK cloak without local?!