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New dev blog: Inferno 1.1 Changes To the War Dec System

First post First post First post
Author
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#121 - 2012-06-13 21:49:56 UTC
I no idea rag-tag groups of 'nobodies' were a serious threat to suposed 'real' mercenary groups. Food for thought I guess.
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#122 - 2012-06-13 21:51:09 UTC
Dabigredboat wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:




Good post. For the record I'm very happy to discuss improvements to this 1.1 mechanic - and if people can get away from the trolly-flaminess lets do it. "Why this change happened" is now really something for Eve History, In Character propaganda, and 3rd party sites - so lets move on to pure mechanics if its possible and see if there is some kind of resolution to this mess.





What you fail to understand here is that THIS IS THE BLOODY IMPROVEMENT :). Sorry about the yelling but I do not think jade is listening to the 5 CSM reps or the other 100 people telling him that he is batshit crazy.


All of whom have a personal grudge against the person of Jade himself or are on the receiving end of an annoying dogpile.

Inferno 1.1 is NOT an improvement. It basically nullifies that actual wardec improvements made by Inferno.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!

Meytal
Doomheim
#123 - 2012-06-13 21:53:48 UTC
Allow aggressors AND defenders to hire allies. Both sides. It should cost for both sides, but not fixed costs, and it shouldn't matter how many wars you have running.

Keep the sand in the sandbox, and don't impose artificial restrictions.

Costs should scale depending on relative strengths. If you have a weak aggressor (low total-SP) declaring on a strong target (high total-SP), there should only be the minimal base cost. If the weak aggressor then adds strong allies, such that the total-SP balance is now on the aggressor side, the costs should dramatically rise.

Costs to add allies for the weaker side should always be less than costs to add allies for the stronger side, including at the tipping point of going weaker -> stronger. Remember, you're bribing/paying off Concord, and possibly the empires, with these payments, not any other player organization. Wardecs are meaningless and unnecessary in Nullsec/W-space.

Wardecs already last one week. Allies should last until the end of the wardec period, with an option to renew assistance if the war continues another week.

A special note about groups who are participating in multiple wars. When paying for allies, the total SP of all Aggressors is taken into account and compared against the total SP of all groups for whom you are Aggressors. A small corp might be the Target of the Goons, but themselves might also be griefing a mission-running corp. If they add allies, those allies will be defenders against Goons, but Aggressors against that mission-running corp.

This may be complicated for a human to try to figure out, but it's easy for a computer (when programmed correctly). All the warring corps need to know is the potential cost of adding a particular ally. If this is implemented on SiSi and actually given time to mature (unlike some other things lately), it can become a robust, easy-to-use, and very fair system for all.

Until you actually balance wars, it will always favour one side or the other. That's the very purpose of "balance", to minimize all bias. It's not a simple "flip a switch and turn on all happy-fun land".
Sizeof Void
Ninja Suicide Squadron
#124 - 2012-06-13 21:54:39 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:

2. We're doing this change based on CSM and merc feedback, which was to restrict the option to get as many free allies as the defender wanted so mercs could profile their services more visibly. What we disagree with is the practical solution to this issue; they wanted one tailored to mercs and the option I chose was one that was more balanced. This means that corps and alliances have the option to go with a smaller group of elite people or simply throw a ton of cash at getting a lot of allies in. At the end of the day, this is the more flexible option, which is much healthier for EVE as a whole.

Doesn't this change just benefit experienced and larger merc corps, while discouraging the creation of new or smaller merc corps? Seems to me that no one would bother hiring any of the smaller merc corps, even if they were to offer their services at a discount, (or even for free), due to the fast escalating cost of adding allies.

There is also an assumption on your part that all high sec corps have a "ton of cash" to throw at either hiring "elite people" or "getting a lot of allies in". I don't think this assumption is correct, esp. with regards to noob corps. In the original thread regarding the Inferno wardec changes, one of the arguments supporting the defense of smaller/poorer noob corps against grief decs was the ability to bring in as many free allies as they could find. Now, what are they supposed to do? Camp in station, or just quit playing?

Finally, I seem to recall that one of the original selling points of the ally system was supposed to be getting more high sec dwellers involved in PVP. Now that this appears to be working in one notoriously particular case, why change this aspect, esp. with regards to mutual wardecs? The Goons aren't complaining, so why not actively encourage everyone in high-sec to jump on the dog pile and enjoy the fun?
Challu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#125 - 2012-06-13 21:55:50 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
Anyway, as someone pointed out on EN24, the first 5 allies will cost a mere 120M. For 1B, you get 8! And it's less than 4B for 10 allies. Seriously, if you need more than 10 allies to stand against whoever wardecs you, you should really HTFU or change your lifestyle so you're not a squishy pinata for all and sundry.

Edit: Off topic part removed, CCP Phantom
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#126 - 2012-06-13 21:56:53 UTC
Dabigredboat wrote:
What I do like about this change is the ability to police something that would have otherwise been broken. The fact that 100 different alliances, each with any number of possible people COULD engage in a free wardec system was broken. Goons have 9k members because unlike most of empire we generate content and use organization levels that star fraction and other empire only alliances would dream of having.

I for one am happy that alliances that play like pandemic legion, that are the mercs of eve, will finally be able to earn their way into contracts and have to prove they are quality enough to be HIRED and not just given free rides.

Those empire dwellers were creating content. Granted in your eyes it was not. Just like in a Hulk pilots eyes a T1 fit suicide destroyer blowing up his ship is not content.

I guess it depends on ones point of view. Why do you feel Hulkaggedon or Burn Jita is content, but people who live in empire finding a way to fight those who shoved said content down their throats, not content??

To me, both qualify as content. Don't you agree?
Dabigredboat
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
#127 - 2012-06-13 21:57:52 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:
Dabigredboat wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:




Good post. For the record I'm very happy to discuss improvements to this 1.1 mechanic - and if people can get away from the trolly-flaminess lets do it. "Why this change happened" is now really something for Eve History, In Character propaganda, and 3rd party sites - so lets move on to pure mechanics if its possible and see if there is some kind of resolution to this mess.





What you fail to understand here is that THIS IS THE BLOODY IMPROVEMENT :). Sorry about the yelling but I do not think jade is listening to the 5 CSM reps or the other 100 people telling him that he is batshit crazy.


All of whom have a personal grudge against the person of Jade himself or are on the receiving end of an annoying dogpile.

Inferno 1.1 is NOT an improvement. It basically nullifies that actual wardec improvements made by Inferno.


So please inform me. How is this not an improvement of a broken and unintended game mechanic. CCP flat out said they never intended defending other alliances as a "free wardec" against the attacker. As of current 82 alliances are getting 500mil each worth of free wardecs against goonswarm.

Just because the defending alliances are unable to recruit more then 100 people each is not the problem of the people who put the time and effort into forming a larger ingame alliance of like minded people. There is nothing stopping star fraction or others from growing just as large. Look at test alliance, look at -A-, these are examples of people who grew into larger alliances.

What this does is prevent choice from being taken away. The new system will force smaller alliances to CHOOSE wisely who they pickup to defend their space in empire, which they do not own, and live in stations, which they do not control, in order to fight back.
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#128 - 2012-06-13 21:59:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
Dabigredboat wrote:
What I do like about this change is the ability to police something that would have otherwise been broken. The fact that 100 different alliances, each with any number of possible people COULD engage in a free wardec system was broken. Goons have 9k members because unlike most of empire we generate content and use organization levels that star fraction and other empire only alliances would dream of having.

I for one am happy that alliances that play like pandemic legion, that are the mercs of eve, will finally be able to earn their way into contracts and have to prove they are quality enough to be HIRED and not just given free rides.


I'm a fan of GoonSwarm, by the way you're 'generating content' makes you deserving of a dogpile more then anybody else in the game. There is nothing wrong with a NULL-SEC alliance getting wardecced by even a thousand different alliances.

In Dutch we have a saying 'High trees catch a lot of wind' and the Goons simply replaced BoB in that aspect. Do you REALLY want CCP to step in as they do now and make it harder for other to counter your shenanigans in empire?

Also Pandemic Legion hasn't been an actual merc for years, but I doubt any amount of money will buy them to go against the CFC. Besides, PL 'profession' (whatever that might be these days) isn't even remotely inconvenienced by the ability of defenders to dogpile a load of opportunists onto their attackers in empire hubs.

Any proper merc losing work to that (like PL? ROFL) , should have chosen a different line of work to begin with.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!

MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#129 - 2012-06-13 21:59:39 UTC  |  Edited by: MotherMoon
Tobiaz wrote:
Dabigredboat wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:




Good post. For the record I'm very happy to discuss improvements to this 1.1 mechanic - and if people can get away from the trolly-flaminess lets do it. "Why this change happened" is now really something for Eve History, In Character propaganda, and 3rd party sites - so lets move on to pure mechanics if its possible and see if there is some kind of resolution to this mess.





What you fail to understand here is that THIS IS THE BLOODY IMPROVEMENT :). Sorry about the yelling but I do not think jade is listening to the 5 CSM reps or the other 100 people telling him that he is batshit crazy.


All of whom have a personal grudge against the person of Jade himself or are on the receiving end of an annoying dogpile.

Inferno 1.1 is NOT an improvement. It basically nullifies that actual wardec improvements made by Inferno.


why? it's just a hardcap on how many allies you can have. If you want more defense make an allaince.

I guess my point is the tools are allready in the sandbox. The merc system needs to be tailored with the understanding that people like MC allready made money as a merc group in eve. The tools should help players do something they already do in game. Thus a limit on allies makes sense. In fact I'd be happier if you could only get ONE ALLY. which is how I figured it would work. Then different size merc alliances would pop up. you can only get one merc corp, so if you are in a big war, there is a market for alliances like MC to join in.

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

Dabigredboat
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
#130 - 2012-06-13 22:00:11 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Dabigredboat wrote:
What I do like about this change is the ability to police something that would have otherwise been broken. The fact that 100 different alliances, each with any number of possible people COULD engage in a free wardec system was broken. Goons have 9k members because unlike most of empire we generate content and use organization levels that star fraction and other empire only alliances would dream of having.

I for one am happy that alliances that play like pandemic legion, that are the mercs of eve, will finally be able to earn their way into contracts and have to prove they are quality enough to be HIRED and not just given free rides.

Those empire dwellers were creating content. Granted in your eyes it was not. Just like in a Hulk pilots eyes a T1 fit suicide destroyer blowing up his ship is not content.

I guess it depends on ones point of view. Why do you feel Hulkaggedon or Burn Jita is content, but people who live in empire finding a way to fight those who shoved said content down their throats, not content??

To me, both qualify as content. Don't you agree?


Jita burns and Hulkaggedon allows people to follow the rules of the game and use diplomacy to change it.

Content is point of view, my idea of content in eve is blowing up Super Capital class ships. Empire wars and fighting does not excite me in the slightest. But, 90 alliances being able to prevent me from entering highsec in order to move around because they are able to skirt past a designed wardec system due to a changing system is pretty terrible and I am glad they have fixed this.
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#131 - 2012-06-13 22:00:37 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
Bagehi wrote:
Tobiaz wrote:
how about the CSM start defending CCP's decision to toss the dogpile mechanic and remove allies from mutual wars. I would LOVE to see some good reasons justifying those decisions, because CCP isn't offering any.


Both null and w-space pilots really don't care about high sec war decs. Alekseyev was the only member of CSM to actually be impacted by the 1.1 war dec changes, really. He's already made his opinion on the matter clear.


I'd point out I am also affected and have offered an opinion about how I would have preferred to have seen this changed. As has already been pointed out the CSM did offer alternatives but in the end we are advisory and not able to dictate to CCP how to change their game.

For me, its a disappointment, but I knew we could expect this to evolve somehow. I don't expect this is going to end up how it stays long term because I don't see it really addressing the problem with the current system. So all I think we can do is continue to offer feedback and suggestions for refinement. Then hope for the best.

Issler
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#132 - 2012-06-13 22:02:03 UTC
MotherMoon wrote:


why? it's just a hardcap on how many allies you can have. If you want more defense make an allaince.


Sounds nice, but won't work very well, because the opportunistic 'allies' don't like that level of commitment (as would most mercs).

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!

Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2012-06-13 22:02:41 UTC
not sure if i missed it

what about mutual wars ? will they be reset with 1.1 ?
Dealth Striker
Perkone
Caldari State
#134 - 2012-06-13 22:03:05 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Orakkus wrote:
I highly disagree with this:

Quote:
There is a cost now associated with hiring lots of allies. You are still free to hire as many allies as you want, but there is an increasing cost in doing so. Refer to this:

•Ally #1 – Free!
•Ally #2 – 10 million
•Ally #3 – 20 million
•Ally #4 – 40 million
•Ally #5 – 80 million
•and so on…


I think this point alone discourages smaller alliances and corporations from defending against large, generally better funded, alliances. And to be honest, this sounds too much like the Mittani's influence because of what happened between Goons and Star Fraction. Smaller alliances should have the ability to contract as many allies as they need.. without financial cost.


Limiting the number of allies is feedback we've gotten from the merc industry, I'm not sure Goons care. If they do, they haven't voiced it to us vOv.


Why would they? If someone is giving you something that is better than what was currently being offerred - you would be an idiot to say anthing. Pretty naive.
Striker Out!!
Dabigredboat
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
#135 - 2012-06-13 22:03:11 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:
Dabigredboat wrote:
What I do like about this change is the ability to police something that would have otherwise been broken. The fact that 100 different alliances, each with any number of possible people COULD engage in a free wardec system was broken. Goons have 9k members because unlike most of empire we generate content and use organization levels that star fraction and other empire only alliances would dream of having.

I for one am happy that alliances that play like pandemic legion, that are the mercs of eve, will finally be able to earn their way into contracts and have to prove they are quality enough to be HIRED and not just given free rides.


I'm a fan of GoonSwarm, by the way you're 'generating content' makes you deserving of a dogpile more then anybody else in the game. There is nothing wrong with a NULL-SEC alliance getting wardecced by even a thousand different alliances.

In Dutch we have a saying 'High trees catch a lot of wind' and the Goons simply replaced BoB in that aspect. Do you REALLY want CCP to step in as they do now and make it harder for other to counter your shenanigans in empire?

Also Pandemic Legion hasn't been an actual merc for years, but I doubt any amount of money will buy them to go against the CFC. Besides, PL 'profession' (whatever that might be these days) isn't even remotely inconvenienced by the ability of defenders to dogpile a load of opportunists onto their attackers in empire hubs.

Any proper merc losing work to that (like PL? ROFL) , should have chosen a different line of work to begin with.


During the old wardec system many alliances such as privateers, moar tears and others have been able to engage in active wars with multipul 3-4k member alliances ALONE at the same time. This system was intended to allow smaller groups who get wardec'd to recruit and hire groups such as these above to defend them from larger alliances with greater funds.
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#136 - 2012-06-13 22:06:21 UTC
Dabigredboat wrote:


Jita burns and Hulkaggedon allows people to follow the rules of the game and use diplomacy to change it.

Content is point of view, my idea of content in eve is blowing up Super Capital class ships. Empire wars and fighting does not excite me in the slightest. But, 90 alliances being able to prevent me from entering highsec in order to move around because they are able to skirt past a designed wardec system due to a changing system is pretty terrible and I am glad they have fixed this.


Spoken trolled like a true null-bear Roll

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!

Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#137 - 2012-06-13 22:08:25 UTC
Dabigredboat wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Dabigredboat wrote:
What I do like about this change is the ability to police something that would have otherwise been broken. The fact that 100 different alliances, each with any number of possible people COULD engage in a free wardec system was broken. Goons have 9k members because unlike most of empire we generate content and use organization levels that star fraction and other empire only alliances would dream of having.

I for one am happy that alliances that play like pandemic legion, that are the mercs of eve, will finally be able to earn their way into contracts and have to prove they are quality enough to be HIRED and not just given free rides.

Those empire dwellers were creating content. Granted in your eyes it was not. Just like in a Hulk pilots eyes a T1 fit suicide destroyer blowing up his ship is not content.

I guess it depends on ones point of view. Why do you feel Hulkaggedon or Burn Jita is content, but people who live in empire finding a way to fight those who shoved said content down their throats, not content??

To me, both qualify as content. Don't you agree?


Jita burns and Hulkaggedon allows people to follow the rules of the game and use diplomacy to change it.

Content is point of view, my idea of content in eve is blowing up Super Capital class ships. Empire wars and fighting does not excite me in the slightest. But, 90 alliances being able to prevent me from entering highsec in order to move around because they are able to skirt past a designed wardec system due to a changing system is pretty terrible and I am glad they have fixed this.

Not to say that one should make this argument, but one could say that by funding the destruction of a certain ship class in high security space on a permanent basis has a very similar effect to others as what this wardec system has done to you in your description. Both were also within the rules of the system at the time they were done as well.
None ofthe Above
#138 - 2012-06-13 22:10:32 UTC  |  Edited by: None ofthe Above
Bagehi wrote:

None ofthe Above wrote:
The geometrically increasing charge for allies on the other hand may not call for cheers, however.

I am not sure it even helps the Mercs to have these charges to CONCORD. Sure a few companies will get business again, but it hurts smaller starter merc companies (choose your mercs wisely indeed).


CCP had to put a limiter on there or defenders would go for the quantity over quality approach which is the antithesis of what promotes the use of good merc groups.

These changes are reasonable. However, it dos not address the root problem of a lack of real victory or defeat conditions in high sec wars. Okay, now a defender has a rational reason to hire a merc. What is the merc's stated goal to bring about favorable end to this war for the defender? The attacker can toss on a war, but for what purpose? It is still impossible to actually pin down an entity in high sec and demand their submission.

War decs are broken at their core. Arguing these mechanics is pretty useless.


Fair enough on the victory conditions part. I've also lamented on the lack of those.

Do still think its worth discussing whether or not the geometrically increasing ally fees help or hurt the situation though.

IMHO, what killed the mercenary trade was the inability to limit the exposure of entering the fray as an Ally, coupled with the higher cost of wardecing the opponent for a fee (the traditional way). As other commenters have pointed out, if the Mercs can control their costs and be given a level playing field with volunteers, they should be able to compete just fine on their merits.

Isn't that more the sandbox way?

Protectionists fees may or may not be needed in the long run, but it looks like something that should be avoided if at all possible.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.

Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#139 - 2012-06-13 22:10:58 UTC
Quote:
And Now For Something Completely Different…

Lastly, there is a new skill out there, called Armor Resistance Phasing. It reduces the cycle time of Reactive Armor Hardeners (or, well, the one that currently exists) by 10% per level. This skill costs ca. 600k, has a skill rank of 5 and is sold wherever good skill books are sold (i.e. the usual places).


Hum. Can anyone tell me how this new Hardener is affected by the Armor Compensation Skills?
Is this counted as an active or a passive Hardener?
I could not see any change at all while testing, but certainly it IS an armor hardener?!?
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#140 - 2012-06-13 22:13:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobiaz
Dabigredboat wrote:
[
During the old wardec system many alliances such as privateers, moar tears and others have been able to engage in active wars with multipul 3-4k member alliances ALONE at the same time. This system was intended to allow smaller groups who get wardec'd to recruit and hire groups such as these above to defend them from larger alliances with greater funds.


Actually, it was designed so attacking corporations risked becoming a 'free-for-all' in empire. And bigger attackers attract more opportunist. Especially the biggest attackers that make it their mission to **** off the rest off EVE, live safely in null, yet continue to meddle and peddle in empire.

Yes the old mechanics allowed for some of the hub raiders to wardec you, but the Inferno 1.1 would basically revert the game to pre-Inferno, but much more expensive and make the whole ally mechanics useless. And it's not like you can hire enough mercs to take on the CFC on their home turf (and privateers are useless when it comes to anything other then distraction).

What pisses me off the most is how CCP manages to make mutual war decs completely useless again, while it should have been the key feature providing unavoidable consequences for attackers in Inferno.

Operation WRITE DOWN ALL THE THINGS!!!  Check out the list at http://bit.ly/wdatt Collecting and compiling all fixes and ideas for EVE. Looking for more editors!