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New dev blog: Incursions update

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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#141 - 2012-06-13 15:47:28 UTC
Krystyn wrote:
CCP Affinity wrote:
We are listening to the feedback about OTA and we are taking it seriously but that is a change we will have to look at for a future expansion, not one we can squeeze in now. We also don't want to make any further changes right now, please read my previous post about small steps


Well until you fix OTAs you changes will mean virtually nothing.
I use to run Vanguard sites alot. The day after the nerf I tried to run an OTA 3 hours later we finished the 3rd site. I never went back to vanguards. I trained half my corp on how to run vanguards and then the nerf and no one ever ran a vanguard site again after I explained about the new OTA setup.


THIS IS THE PROBLEM PLEASE LISTEN TO THE FEEDBACK OF PEOPLE THAT ACTUALLY RUN INCURSIONS CCP DEVs!!!
Its not the ISK of the Individual sites. The inluence bar is a secondary problem AFTER the OTA's can finally be tackled by less then shiney fleets but the 2 'rollbacks' you are proposing are NOT going to change the reason why Vanguards have FLOORED.

( NULL/lo SEC just cannot field the shiney ships required for OTA's due to the risk )
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#142 - 2012-06-13 15:49:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
Vincent Athena wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
mumkill3r wrote:
Something needs to change to make them worth doing again. Come on give me a reason to dust off the Vindy and make some serious isk.


read: "I want my risk-free isk fountain back"


Incursions cannot be risk free because to do them you got to undock. Anytime you undock you are at risk.

In practical terms there is little difference between "risk-free" and "oh my god, there is a 0.2% chance of me losing my ship before I make back ten times it's value".


cBOLTSON wrote:
This is very true, a large portion of incursion runners I ran with were either pvp chars or obvious nullsec alts.

No i wouldnt say they are at all, its the big nullsec battles, the things individual corporations and even a single man can do in the game that really drive the story. Incursions were more like a mutual benifactor for everyone involved. A lot of times i saw 0.0 enemies together in the same incursion fleet.

Yes I also totally agree with you about the community, hence why when incursions droped out of favour, mass portions of the so called 'incursion community' went back to what ever they did before.

I for one would personally love it if it was the members collecting resources for thier corp / alliance. Similar to how resources are gathered in a RTS. Ive allways seen eve more as a real time strategy game than a space combat sim. Obviously has elemnts of both.
Incursions were at least something half decent to do pve wise.

I would love it if incursions gathered some kind of resource, although it is obviously too late in the design stage to make such a major change to their mechanics. I would also have liked them to be designed especially for the security space that they are in, as I pointed out earlier in the thread:

Simi Kusoni wrote:
Missions: Different missions available dependent on system security.
Exploration: Different sites available dependent on system security.
Anomalies: Different sites available dependent on system security.
Belt Ratting: Different NPCs available dependent on system security.

Incursions: Identical across all security regions with a nominal alteration in payout.

This has always struck me as one of the major flaws with incursions, they are largely uniform across all security brackets, and as a result do not feel quite at home in any of them.

If CCP had designed incursions with differences dependent on system security, then it may have granted the designers freedom to balance and specialise the incursions themselves to better suit play styles for each area of the game. As it stands uniform changes to null, low and high sec incursions may be "right" for one location but will completely kill activity in others.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Krystyn
Serenity Rising LLC
Controlled Chaos
#143 - 2012-06-13 15:50:57 UTC
cBOLTSON wrote:
[quote=Simi Kusoni]

This is very true, a large portion of incursion runners I ran with were either pvp chars or obvious nullsec alts.

No i wouldnt say they are at all, its the big nullsec battles, the things individual corporations and even a single man can do in the game that really drive the story. Incursions were more like a mutual benifactor for everyone involved. A lot of times i saw 0.0 enemies together in the same incursion fleet.

Yes I also totally agree with you about the community, hence why when incursions droped out of favour, mass portions of the so called 'incursion community' went back to what ever they did before.

I for one would personally love it if it was the members collecting resources for thier corp / alliance. Similar to how resources are gathered in a RTS. Ive allways seen eve more as a real time strategy game than a space combat sim. Obviously has elemnts of both.
Incursions were at least something half decent to do pve wise.


I remember fleeting up with Reds on several occasions. Even someone I had killed recently. He told me in fleet chat he was looking forward to a rematch and was planning on using the incursion funds to pay for ships to do it in. I was doing the same thing saving up isk to buy stuff to support my null sec agenda(CAPs and a POS and POCOs and new drakes to get blown up in)
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#144 - 2012-06-13 16:03:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
Krystyn wrote:
I remember fleeting up with Reds on several occasions. Even someone I had killed recently. He told me in fleet chat he was looking forward to a rematch and was planning on using the incursion funds to pay for ships to do it in. I was doing the same thing saving up isk to buy stuff to support my null sec agenda(CAPs and a POS and POCOs and new drakes to get blown up in)

ITT: People who believe theme park PvE is a good thing.

DarthNefarius wrote:
THIS IS THE PROBLEM PLEASE LISTEN TO THE FEEDBACK OF PEOPLE THAT ACTUALLY RUN INCURSIONS CCP DEVs!!!
Its not the ISK of the Individual sites. The inluence bar is a secondary problem AFTER the OTA's can finally be tackled by less then shiney fleets but the 2 'rollbacks' you are proposing are NOT going to change the reason why Vanguards have FLOORED.

( NULL/lo SEC just cannot field the shiney ships required for OTA's due to the risk )

Caps lock: Guaranteed to make you sound 20% less like an angry child.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
ReiAnn
Nova-Tek
#145 - 2012-06-13 17:00:48 UTC
I have to agree with the posts about the changes not being what the incursions really needed. As it is, unless you have a decent corp with a lot of active members with shiny ships, generally, the random player has a hard time getting into fleets. at least in my experience. Everyone wants you to use a certain fit or a particular ship. These min/maxing power gamer styles are ok when you are playing WoW or some other mmo that doesn't require a lot of time and isk spent in game. However, many people have to spend a LOT of time in game to get them in EVE, so they aren't just going to throw their shiny billions of isk ship into a group they may not know or be able to trust.

As far as high sec/null sec argument goes, you went to null sec all on your own. No one made you go. Security is based on the alliance in control. If you don't feel safe in a large incursion fleet, you need to rethink your fleet make-up, current alliance, or move to null sec. People in high sec give up quite a bit to stay there (poor pi, lower bounties, less lucretive exploration complexes, etc). I'm so sick of having to deal with the name calling crap from a bunch of adults. This game is turning away from the co-op gameplay to who can get who to quit the game faster.

Incursions are the basic PVE instance. A bad npc is here to wreck you and your enemies a like. It may not feel like it with the current game mechanics, but it's what the story boils down too. Who would you prefer to crush your enemies. You or some npc? Team up, get the job done, and get back to making war.
Fearless M0F0
Incursion PWNAGE Asc
#146 - 2012-06-13 17:02:32 UTC
Here is an idea that you might be able to squeeze:

Instead of 10% increase payout to Vanguards, just increase OTAs by let's say 50% and/or tweak they curve so a 15 pilot fleet gets full payout (they are almost as hard and take as long as assaults right now). Now, this would just be just a temporary stopgap until you can rebalance them.

The idea is to make OTAs at the very least worth the grind. This change along the influence one could inject new life to all incursions short term and should be pretty easy to implement i guess, right? Bear

As far as long term, you could make payouts dynamic based on number of sites/hr completed so incursions sites left untouched slowly increase their payout while blitzing fleets get paid a little less for each site they complete.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#147 - 2012-06-13 17:08:59 UTC
Fearless M0F0 wrote:
Here is an idea that you might be able to squeeze:

Instead of 10% increase payout to Vanguards, just increase OTAs by let's say 50% and/or tweak they curve so a 15 pilot fleet gets full payout (they are almost as hard and take as long as assaults right now). Now, this would just be just a temporary stopgap until you can rebalance them.

The idea is to make OTAs at the very least worth the grind. This change along the influence one could inject new life to all incursions short term and should be pretty easy to implement i guess, right? Bear

As far as long term, you could make payouts dynamic based on number of sites/hr completed so incursions sites left untouched slowly increase their payout while blitzing fleets get paid a little less for each site they complete.

You have to laugh at times when you see players claiming the issue isn't with ISK, but with OTAs not being "fun".

The solution? Increase the payout of OTAs.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Fearless M0F0
Incursion PWNAGE Asc
#148 - 2012-06-13 17:34:52 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:

You have to laugh at times when you see players claiming the issue isn't with ISK, but with OTAs not being "fun".

The solution? Increase the payout of OTAs.


You missed the "and/or adjust the curve to allow more players" part. The idea is to either make them less of a grind or pay more so fleets are easier to form.

Also, I'm not asking this only for highsec, such a change might bring null/low incursions back to life.
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#149 - 2012-06-13 17:37:23 UTC
Fearless M0F0 wrote:
Here is an idea that you might be able to squeeze:

Instead of 10% increase payout to Vanguards, just increase OTAs by let's say 50% and/or tweak they curve so a 15 pilot fleet gets full payout (they are almost as hard and take as long as assaults right now). Now, this would just be just a temporary stopgap until you can rebalance them.

The idea is to make OTAs at the very least worth the grind. This change along the influence one could inject new life to all incursions short term and should be pretty easy to implement i guess, right? Bear

As far as long term, you could make payouts dynamic based on number of sites/hr completed so incursions sites left untouched slowly increase their payout while blitzing fleets get paid a little less for each site they complete.


not a good idea as fleets would have to drop/add people to accomodate OTA's
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#150 - 2012-06-13 17:39:40 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
ISeeDeath wrote:
From my personal view and from a lot of friends i made during making incursions this statement could not be more wrong.


What do you do in EVE with the friends you made running incursions?

Besides running incursions, of course

They complain about the reduced ISK/hr ratio that made them all decide that running incursions was no longer "fun".

If these "incursion communities" were a real thing they'd have stuck together after the nerf and moved on as a community to other things. We'd be hearing a constant flow of stories about how they came together and had fun and bonded, and now they're running a wormspace operation in a C5, or carving out a name for themselves in a quiet corner of Aridia or Syndicate,and how glad they were that the Incursions gave them the opportunity to meet and get to know each other. Instead they melted away overnight when the isk tap was turned down.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
General Jung
Asgard Intelligence Services
#151 - 2012-06-13 18:05:44 UTC
Dear CCP,

that seems good, but there will be still the problem that larger sites won´t reward to effort. So it would be helpful if you add a 15% more payout for AS and 25% payout increasement for the HQ. Then lets hope that all FCs, who decide to boycott incursions will come back and that the playerbase to recruite from will be normalized through the changes you will implement.
Amdor Renevat
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2012-06-13 18:07:31 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
ISeeDeath wrote:
From my personal view and from a lot of friends i made during making incursions this statement could not be more wrong.


What do you do in EVE with the friends you made running incursions?

Besides running incursions, of course

They complain about the reduced ISK/hr ratio that made them all decide that running incursions was no longer "fun".

If these "incursion communities" were a real thing they'd have stuck together after the nerf and moved on as a community to other things. We'd be hearing a constant flow of stories about how they came together and had fun and bonded, and now they're running a wormspace operation in a C5, or carving out a name for themselves in a quiet corner of Aridia or Syndicate,and how glad they were that the Incursions gave them the opportunity to meet and get to know each other. Instead they melted away overnight when the isk tap was turned down.


What other group PVE activity requires the same level of coordination as an Incursion? Incursion runners came together to have some fun while still retaining all of their previous friends for activities other than incursions. Being in a wormhole or going into null sec is in no way comparable to running incursions. It's apples and oranges. The next closest thing would be Lvl 4 missions, and who needs the level of coordination or help to run those.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#153 - 2012-06-13 19:01:29 UTC
General Jung wrote:
Dear CCP,

that seems good, but there will be still the problem that larger sites won´t reward to effort. So it would be helpful if you add a 15% more payout for AS and 25% payout increasement for the HQ. Then lets hope that all FCs, who decide to boycott incursions will come back and that the playerbase to recruite from will be normalized through the changes you will implement.

So basically you want high sec incursion income to surpass low sec again?

No.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2012-06-13 19:26:15 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
ISeeDeath wrote:
From my personal view and from a lot of friends i made during making incursions this statement could not be more wrong.


What do you do in EVE with the friends you made running incursions?

Besides running incursions, of course

They complain about the reduced ISK/hr ratio that made them all decide that running incursions was no longer "fun".

If these "incursion communities" were a real thing they'd have stuck together after the nerf and moved on as a community to other things. We'd be hearing a constant flow of stories about how they came together and had fun and bonded, and now they're running a wormspace operation in a C5, or carving out a name for themselves in a quiet corner of Aridia or Syndicate,and how glad they were that the Incursions gave them the opportunity to meet and get to know each other. Instead they melted away overnight when the isk tap was turned down.

Just to note, some of us are still running. We may not be nearly as numerous, but we're far from completely gone.

I see many of the same people when I run, and for me there is a great deal of entertainment just sitting in TS and listening, but that doesn't mean that outside of incursions we have the same interests so far as other areas of the game are concerned.

Some came from null because even post nerf it was more fun that doing null anoms solo, others were part time WH dwellers. Some were funding ships for lowsec fun. Of those there are 2 I have no interest in so it makes little sense for me to just up and join them on a permanent basis, but we all enjoy working with each other in the activity which we commonly share.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#155 - 2012-06-13 19:39:22 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
General Jung wrote:
Dear CCP,

that seems good, but there will be still the problem that larger sites won´t reward to effort. So it would be helpful if you add a 15% more payout for AS and 25% payout increasement for the HQ. Then lets hope that all FCs, who decide to boycott incursions will come back and that the playerbase to recruite from will be normalized through the changes you will implement.

So basically you want high sec incursion income to surpass low sec again?

No.

If they were all increased across the board, that would still mean low/null assaults/HQ's were still paying higher.

Or is there some other issue I'm missing?
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#156 - 2012-06-13 20:01:10 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
ISeeDeath wrote:
From my personal view and from a lot of friends i made during making incursions this statement could not be more wrong.


What do you do in EVE with the friends you made running incursions?

Besides running incursions, of course

They complain about the reduced ISK/hr ratio that made them all decide that running incursions was no longer "fun".

If these "incursion communities" were a real thing they'd have stuck together after the nerf and moved on as a community to other things. We'd be hearing a constant flow of stories about how they came together and had fun and bonded, and now they're running a wormspace operation in a C5, or carving out a name for themselves in a quiet corner of Aridia or Syndicate,and how glad they were that the Incursions gave them the opportunity to meet and get to know each other. Instead they melted away overnight when the isk tap was turned down.

Just to note, some of us are still running. We may not be nearly as numerous, but we're far from completely gone.

My apologies, I know the few people who actually run incursions these days find it hard to get heard these days over the moneybags bandwagoners loudly proclaiming that incursions are "dead" and that unless they can make 150m/hr there's no reason whatsoever for anyone to run them ever again.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Deviana Sevidon
Jades Falcon Guards
#157 - 2012-06-13 20:50:34 UTC
The main reason why vanguard sites are disliked are the wall of OTA. You basically gave the Override Transfer Array a triple nerf/buff that makes the sites not only take longer but they seem to switch targets more often, together with even more remote repair for the rats, very few players still want to do the sites anymore.

So after a few incursions, NCO and NMC also take longer but are still manageable, the fleet is confronted with a wall of OTAs no one wants to do.

....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced.
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#158 - 2012-06-13 21:43:12 UTC
Going by Selene's latest blog post the CSM and CCP discussed some of the real problems with Incursions (full article here: http://seleenes-sandbox.blogspot.com):

Quote:

* The Incursion story line - will this ever end? There's no real sense of danger. **** needs to get real.

* "NPC" space doesn't feel very alive. There are no convoys anymore, etc... Why don't the NPCs react to all of this bad stuff going on in their space?

* If the Sansha are invading, wouldn't CONCORD be busy dealing with that and not capsuleers? (totally legit question)


This is what CCP should be working on fixing with Incursions, particularly the last point. Either Incursions in High Sec lose CONCORD protection or High Sec should lose Incursions.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2012-06-13 21:47:52 UTC
Xorv wrote:
Going by Selene's latest blog post the CSM and CCP discussed some of the real problems with Incursions (full article here: http://seleenes-sandbox.blogspot.com):

Quote:

* The Incursion story line - will this ever end? There's no real sense of danger. **** needs to get real.

* "NPC" space doesn't feel very alive. There are no convoys anymore, etc... Why don't the NPCs react to all of this bad stuff going on in their space?

* If the Sansha are invading, wouldn't CONCORD be busy dealing with that and not capsuleers? (totally legit question)


This is what CCP should be working on fixing with Incursions, particularly the last point. Either Incursions in High Sec lose CONCORD protection or High Sec should lose Incursions.

Incursions that loose Concord protection are inherently not highsec incursions. Either way you are asking for the same thing.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#160 - 2012-06-13 22:00:51 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Cathrine Kenchov wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
So now you've destroyed the (already terrible) war dec system, you're following up with winding back high sec nerfs? Nice one CCP.

While I agree with the incursion bar changes, buffing isk reward in high sec is simply a quick fix. One that in the long run is just going to continue turning older players away from the game.


Because that's the same dev team, right? Jesus you high sec people get bitter easy

On the feedback side of things, thanks for still watching this ccp, though I do fear this may not be enough of a buff, especially when considering OTA's. And given the large nerf that was random triggers, I would have like to see an overall buff to payouts, instead of just vanguards.


I think at the end of the day, we were unhappy with the way the changes turned out and now we're going to kill them. These are stopgaps though, we'll need to do some larger remodeling but that has to go on another timescale than "next week".


The problem had to have been obvious for quite some time I think you saw it rather quickly and started a thread in Missions& Complexes weeks before Inferno came out. Do you really still think these 2 rolebacks are the reason why Vanguards floored so completely?
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'