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New dev blog: Incursions update

First post
Author
Xander Hunt
#121 - 2012-06-13 05:43:02 UTC
I started regularly doing incursions before the big nerf. i think I'd had been in them for about a month or so, maybe flown 5 or 6 times. Since then, I've heard the whine and bickering from both sides of the plate, those being from the bears and those from being the low/null runners. I NEVER see the low/null bars really dip at all, so really I don't see the reason low/null runners are bitching. THEY DON'T RUN THEM!

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1598459/EVE/currentincursion.png

Do I miss them money from before the nerf? Yes. Do I miss getting to know other capsuleers? Yes. Do I miss hearing the stories from the null runnners? Yes. Do I miss hearing the s??t people do out there? Hell yes. I also miss looking FORWARD to playing this game which costs me $500/year with different people outside of my corp, just for the basic socialization.

That all said, I'd like to propose a change where the fleet decides what kind of rewards they want to play for. Get rid of the payout system as it is, allow for blitzing, but put a bounty (For ISK and LP) on each downed ship based on the fleet who does the most damage to that ship, handed out when the final trigger is killed. So we can do an deltole, deltole, deltole kill, but get crap rewards for it, but it helps move the bar. Or, we stick around and beat the living hell outta all the opposing ships, but we get massive rewards. No enemy ship warps out mid-run. Get a final trigger ship to complete the "mission" and the player can decide to move on. This would also add an extra element of risk in case of warp scram, but the fleet would just have to get rid of the niarjas first.

My two ISK
Dark Nephilium
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#122 - 2012-06-13 05:52:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Dark Nephilium
CCP Affinity wrote:
We are listening to the feedback about OTA and we are taking it seriously but that is a change we will have to look at for a future expansion, not one we can squeeze in now. We also don't want to make any further changes right now, please read my previous post about small steps


Maybe next time you should try making a small change/nerf instead of taking out a big freaking nerf hammer and squashing the living crap out of stuff. Easier to fix small things then it is to unbreak something. Great job on taking all the fun out of something.

What did you guys think was going to happen when you not only nerfed the pay for VG, but tripled the time to make less isk, as well as cost us all 4 times as much in ammo? VG doesn't pay anymore and aren't fun which is why we stopped doing them.

Just push the button and completely roll back the nerf and start from scratch. You have destroyed the Incursion communities with the changes you made and the LEAST you can do is undo your screw up.
Scatim Helicon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#123 - 2012-06-13 06:36:04 UTC
The biggest flaw with Incursions isn't just the amount of ISK they were producing, its that producing ISK is ALL they were good for. There was such talk of the 'incursion community' and how they enjoyed their challenging co-operative intelligent PvE but as soon as the ISK fountain was turned down that 'community' scattered to the four winds.

As a method of producing lasting bonds between individuals incursions haven't worked, instead we've seen an attitude of 'lets grind ISK with strangers then go our separate ways again'. That's the underlying issue here.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#124 - 2012-06-13 06:51:41 UTC
I will give my opinion on your changes.

First, vanguard changes in terms of lack of triggers and randomized waves, as well as increased overall difficulty, including OTA were positive. However, payouts were reduced so much that only ten percent increase wont do.

Lets look at how much an elite fleet can make in vanguards. Maximum will be 8 sites per hour, with 8 DPS and 3 logi, including warp-in and warp-out, and maybe short time people from waitlist to arrive. Thats six minute OTA, so you have seven minute blinks on the neocom. However sites will sometimes take longer, yesterday it was only 61M/hr for me. And it requires vindicators and legions with best hardwires. Thats not a figure from imaginary Eve that spawns only one type of incursion site, and instantly teleports you to the gates, and where logi never take a bio, but how much you'll really earn.

On the other hand, HQ fleets shields run will make 60-70M ISK/hr completely on ez-mode with badly fitted Ravens in fleet. And HQ isnt harder than completing an OTA in six minutes, I assure you, as we maneuver with MWD so that blaster Vindis can apply the antimatter from close range to the spawns. In HQ you only need to press F1 repeatedly and broadcast for reps/capacitor. And HQ will generate more LP, which is valuable. Keep in mind average fleet will do an OTA in 30 minute, not in six. Now compare that to difficulty and reward of assault and HQ sites.

If that dont change, it will be impossible to recruit top talent to the fleets. With 15-20% increase, maybe.

Now you may ask, if those people want group PVE, they have them in assault/HQ fleets. And if they want only ISK, they have null anoms/L4 dualboxing/low level WHs for soloing.

Its not that easy. Incursions are about contest too, as in contest highest DPS fleet only receives the reward. And maybe bragging and smacktalking in local. Incursions were never pure PVE, but were always what would be named elsewhere "PvPVE" or something because sites could be contested. You could harvest genuine tears. However there are few elite communities now, only two I know, one for shield and other for armor.

If you want VGs to be "easy" and "entry-level" or whatever, consider this, 10-mans are easiest to get into in terms of manpower needed, and 20-man and 40-man dont necessary mean sites are harder in terms of player and character skill, but can only mean they take longer to organize.

Consider revamping scout sites to be entry-level, and if you make sites hard, make them worthwhile to do too.

And incursion communities in non-English languages that existed before the changes? Did any of them remain? Take into account capacity of such small community to organize 20 or 40 man raid.



Kern Hotha
#125 - 2012-06-13 07:39:01 UTC
What happened to Sansha Kuvakei? The guy looks like a nightmare now.

Oh, and no changes are needed for incursions. People whine but they still complete them and make isk.

We distinguish the excellent man from the common man by saying that the former is the one who makes great demands upon himself, and the latter who makes no demands on himself.

Jose Ortega y Gasset (1883 - 1955)

ISeeDeath
Cogs and Sprogs Starship Mechanics
#126 - 2012-06-13 07:47:17 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
The biggest flaw with Incursions isn't just the amount of ISK they were producing, its that producing ISK is ALL they were good for. There was such talk of the 'incursion community' and how they enjoyed their challenging co-operative intelligent PvE but as soon as the ISK fountain was turned down that 'community' scattered to the four winds.

As a method of producing lasting bonds between individuals incursions haven't worked, instead we've seen an attitude of 'lets grind ISK with strangers then go our separate ways again'. That's the underlying issue here.


From my personal view and from a lot of friends i made during making incursions this statement could not be more wrong.
Richard Desturned
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#127 - 2012-06-13 07:51:16 UTC
ISeeDeath wrote:
From my personal view and from a lot of friends i made during making incursions this statement could not be more wrong.


What do you do in EVE with the friends you made running incursions?

Besides running incursions, of course

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration

Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#128 - 2012-06-13 08:42:33 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
eidenjunior wrote:
Can we get to see some stats about incursion, pre-inferno and post-inferno?


Not sure I can give the exact numbers, but the use of Vanguards basically floored.


And do you think that a 10% change to the profit will be enough to change this? Like said numerous times, the OTA wall is the issue. If it's the profits you wish to cut, just rollback every change and nerf incursion income by 50%, this essentially drops the profits down to just slightly above l4 missions and like seen before, there would be no single site type that everyone would avoid.



Nope, we're reverting these two specific changes because they were a mistake. I never said they would change everything back to how it was, but looking at them in isolation I don't think they were beneficial to anyone and that's why they're being rolled back. If we need to make larger and more holistic changes that's fine, but our initial reaction is that we put something out that we're not happy with and we're taking it back.


Perhaps at this stage you want the opinion of someone ho has spent 2-3 hours doing incursions and left months ago to never return to it:

As an outsider I get their point and yours.

You are saying: We took back a mistake which must be seen as a positive step so why are you all whining?

They are saying: Thats great but your job is not to take "positive steps" but to fix the bleeping game pronto. If you find a little meaningless (positive) action to take and wave it as a "job well done" banner that will give you the excuse to not do anything further for another n months (reasonably lucid assesment) then you bet you popo we are going to whine!!!

There that's the two positions... I am leaning towards theirs but I remain undecided...

/me grabs popcorn
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#129 - 2012-06-13 08:45:19 UTC
I don't think anyone would begrudge rollbacks on some of the low and Null Sec Incursion Nerfs, but risk free High Sec Incursions should be receiving more nerfs or better yet have Incursions removed entirely until such a time Incursions can be reintroduced in such a way that makes sense both in terms of lore and risk vs reward balance.

"Incursion community" is pure nonsense, it disappeared because most of them were just players bandwagoning onto the best risk/effort vs reward Isk making activity. The remainder are Themepark type PvE raiders who's gameplay needs are incompatible with a Sandbox PvP game such as EVE and should have been shown the door at the first opportunity.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#130 - 2012-06-13 11:11:33 UTC
Xander Hunt wrote:
I started regularly doing incursions before the big nerf. i think I'd had been in them for about a month or so, maybe flown 5 or 6 times. Since then, I've heard the whine and bickering from both sides of the plate, those being from the bears and those from being the low/null runners. I NEVER see the low/null bars really dip at all, so really I don't see the reason low/null runners are bitching. THEY DON'T RUN THEM!


The problem was that Highsec incursion runners were making 1 bil per day in relative safety, when the low & nullsec incursion runners (Yes, they do exist) could not due to the inherent risk & ship fitting differences. They had to use vastly different fits using more ships, when the highsec runners could fit full pve pirate bling ships. As it was, running incursions in highsec all day was one of the most profitable ventures in the game. This should not be the case, ever.

No, I do not live in low or nullsec.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2012-06-13 12:12:55 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:


read: "I want my risk-free isk fountain back"[/quote]


Your incessant whining and crying about something you don't even do is soon to be on par with miners' tears. Amusing.
This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.  Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2012-06-13 12:15:04 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
The biggest flaw with Incursions isn't just the amount of ISK they were producing, its that producing ISK is ALL they were good for. There was such talk of the 'incursion community' and how they enjoyed their challenging co-operative intelligent PvE but as soon as the ISK fountain was turned down that 'community' scattered to the four winds.

As a method of producing lasting bonds between individuals incursions haven't worked, instead we've seen an attitude of 'lets grind ISK with strangers then go our separate ways again'. That's the underlying issue here.



So incursion runners are expected to keep doing them even without earning a single isk? Do you live in North Korea?
This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.  Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless
cBOLTSON
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#133 - 2012-06-13 12:23:27 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Cathrine Kenchov wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
So now you've destroyed the (already terrible) war dec system, you're following up with winding back high sec nerfs? Nice one CCP.

While I agree with the incursion bar changes, buffing isk reward in high sec is simply a quick fix. One that in the long run is just going to continue turning older players away from the game.


Because that's the same dev team, right? Jesus you high sec people get bitter easy

On the feedback side of things, thanks for still watching this ccp, though I do fear this may not be enough of a buff, especially when considering OTA's. And given the large nerf that was random triggers, I would have like to see an overall buff to payouts, instead of just vanguards.


I think at the end of the day, we were unhappy with the way the changes turned out and now we're going to kill them. These are stopgaps though, we'll need to do some larger remodeling but that has to go on another timescale than "next week".


I think that incursions were and still have the potential to be one of the best pve features of EVE by far.
The reason such a community was built up around them is because

a) They provided good isk so, over time, competant fc`s started to run them with thier mates in good ships ( = good isk)

b) They are realtivly fun, by this I mean there more engaging than missions and other things like that.

Add to the incursion system, make more gameplay elements its a solid foundation.

P.S
If you nerf the isk down too much people will go back to doing other things, hence the community crumbles.

The good old days of Unreal Tournament, fragging and sniping on Facing Worlds, listening to Foregone Destruction.......

Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#134 - 2012-06-13 13:15:45 UTC
cBOLTSON wrote:
The reason such a community was built up around them is because

a) They provided good isk so, over time, competant fc`s started to run them with thier mates in good ships ( = good isk)

b) They are realtivly fun, by this I mean there more engaging than missions and other things like that.

Add to the incursion system, make more gameplay elements its a solid foundation.

P.S
If you nerf the isk down too much people will go back to doing other things, hence the community crumbles.

The problem is that you are assuming the community was derived solely of mission runners, it was not.

While yes, incursions were marginally more engaging than missions, would you argue that they were more "community driven" than null sec or wormholes? Because a very large number of the players in incursions were null sec or wormhole players.

The "community" wasn't something new, it was taking players from other communities in the game for an activity that was arguably less involved. Albeit considerably better paying.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Dark Nephilium
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#135 - 2012-06-13 14:15:19 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
The biggest flaw with Incursions isn't just the amount of ISK they were producing, its that producing ISK is ALL they were good for. There was such talk of the 'incursion community' and how they enjoyed their challenging co-operative intelligent PvE but as soon as the ISK fountain was turned down that 'community' scattered to the four winds.

As a method of producing lasting bonds between individuals incursions haven't worked, instead we've seen an attitude of 'lets grind ISK with strangers then go our separate ways again'. That's the underlying issue here.



WE talked, joked and laughed, trolled each other and other fleets, and oh yeah made some isk while we were doing it. Most of that isk went to the PVP alts in various alliances and pirate corps in null/low. So when you null tards start whining about hi sec carebears making risk free isk you have no idea what your talking about. The communities stopped because some/most people just did not want to do assaults/hq and enjoyed the fast pace of the VG and the contest instead. Take the fun out of anything and see how long people will stay. The current state of Incursions is proof of that.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#136 - 2012-06-13 14:19:22 UTC
Dark Nephilium wrote:
WE talked, joked and laughed, trolled each other and other fleets, and oh yeah made some isk while we were doing it. Most of that isk went to the PVP alts in various alliances and pirate corps in null/low. So when you null tards start whining about hi sec carebears making risk free isk you have no idea what your talking about. The communities stopped because some/most people just did not want to do assaults/hq and enjoyed the fast pace of the VG and the contest instead. Take the fun out of anything and see how long people will stay. The current state of Incursions is proof of that.

This is the definition of theme park gameplay.

Bravo for posing a brilliant argument as to why high sec incursions were bad pre-escalation.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

cBOLTSON
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#137 - 2012-06-13 14:20:45 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
cBOLTSON wrote:
The reason such a community was built up around them is because

a) They provided good isk so, over time, competant fc`s started to run them with thier mates in good ships ( = good isk)

b) They are realtivly fun, by this I mean there more engaging than missions and other things like that.

Add to the incursion system, make more gameplay elements its a solid foundation.

P.S
If you nerf the isk down too much people will go back to doing other things, hence the community crumbles.

The problem is that you are assuming the community was derived solely of mission runners, it was not.

While yes, incursions were marginally more engaging than missions, would you argue that they were more "community driven" than null sec or wormholes? Because a very large number of the players in incursions were null sec or wormhole players.

The "community" wasn't something new, it was taking players from other communities in the game for an activity that was arguably less involved. Albeit considerably better paying.


This is very true, a large portion of incursion runners I ran with were either pvp chars or obvious nullsec alts.

No i wouldnt say they are at all, its the big nullsec battles, the things individual corporations and even a single man can do in the game that really drive the story. Incursions were more like a mutual benifactor for everyone involved. A lot of times i saw 0.0 enemies together in the same incursion fleet.

Yes I also totally agree with you about the community, hence why when incursions droped out of favour, mass portions of the so called 'incursion community' went back to what ever they did before.

I for one would personally love it if it was the members collecting resources for thier corp / alliance. Similar to how resources are gathered in a RTS. Ive allways seen eve more as a real time strategy game than a space combat sim. Obviously has elemnts of both.
Incursions were at least something half decent to do pve wise.

The good old days of Unreal Tournament, fragging and sniping on Facing Worlds, listening to Foregone Destruction.......

Dark Nephilium
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#138 - 2012-06-13 14:48:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Dark Nephilium
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Dark Nephilium wrote:
WE talked, joked and laughed, trolled each other and other fleets, and oh yeah made some isk while we were doing it. Most of that isk went to the PVP alts in various alliances and pirate corps in null/low. So when you null tards start whining about hi sec carebears making risk free isk you have no idea what your talking about. The communities stopped because some/most people just did not want to do assaults/hq and enjoyed the fast pace of the VG and the contest instead. Take the fun out of anything and see how long people will stay. The current state of Incursions is proof of that.

This is the definition of theme park gameplay.

Bravo for posing a brilliant argument as to why high sec incursions were bad pre-escalation.


I did say in my previous post that yes changes needed to be made. My argument is that they went WAAAYYY to far and need to roll it back and START OVER. What they are proposing as a fix now is just stupid and won't work.

Also this is a GAME and it is supposed to be FUN.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#139 - 2012-06-13 15:08:10 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
mumkill3r wrote:
Something needs to change to make them worth doing again. Come on give me a reason to dust off the Vindy and make some serious isk.


read: "I want my risk-free isk fountain back"


Incursions cannot be risk free because to do them you got to undock. Anytime you undock you are at risk.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

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Krystyn
Serenity Rising LLC
#140 - 2012-06-13 15:38:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Krystyn
CCP Affinity wrote:
We are listening to the feedback about OTA and we are taking it seriously but that is a change we will have to look at for a future expansion, not one we can squeeze in now. We also don't want to make any further changes right now, please read my previous post about small steps


Well until you fix OTAs your changes will mean virtually nothing.
I use to run Vanguard sites alot. The day after the nerf I tried to run an OTA 3 hours later we finished the 3rd site. I never went back to vanguards. I trained half my corp on how to run vanguards and then the nerf and no one ever ran a vanguard site again after I explained about the new OTA setup. It's just not worth the effort and frustration.