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Inferno 1.1 Sisi features

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Fuujin
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#281 - 2012-06-12 18:00:15 UTC
I know how badly you want to blob, jade, but consider the ramifications: By having so many free allies for any and all wars, you potentially improve their win/loss ratio with no effort on their part (the war history thing). A small corp gets wardec'd and is looking for allies. They see this mid-large corp that offers to join for a nominal fee, they have a strong win history. They pass over smaller "real" merc corps for this larger one. They turn out to be paper tigers and you lose assets, and the "Real" merc corp not only loses a contract, but also has its reputation stained by association "if this large merc group was useless; the rest of them are probably crap as well."

You seek to destroy the marketplace through removing a key quality check via a poor signal-noise ratio.
Kuroi Hoshi
Ajo Heavy Industries
#282 - 2012-06-12 18:02:48 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:

The other thing is that war dec prices are determined by the value you get from them. If you want to go to war with someone, a higher number of potential targets should be more expensive. If you're a smaller alliance, this makes you a less attractive target, unless you've made someone angry in which case you're responsible for any social repercussions you've created.


But if you're deccing a smaller group then for any fight you engage in you have a higher chance of winning as its less likely for them to have corp mates nearby and available. I'd count that as a valuable advantage. Also 50 million ISK can be a good deal of ISK to a 3 man corp, to a 500 man alliance 50 million ISK is nothing.

I think the total number of pilots on both sides should be taken into account for the wardec and 20 vs 500 and 500 vs 20 should cost the same as 520 people are involved in both cases. Nothing complicated, whichever has the larger pilot base is used as the pilot number for determining the cost of the dec. So if its 500 vs 20 or 20 vs 500, you judge the wardec price off of the 500 pilot number.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#283 - 2012-06-12 18:03:46 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Can we flip the discussion around for a moment and ask why, given wardec costs, unlimited corps should be able to effectively wardec whoever they want for free by simply riding on someone else's coattails? I mean, that's what you're offering people, really. You're not saying "Oh woe is me, come defend me from the evil goonies", you're saying "Come wardec goons for free" and letting people avoid the system. So can you please justify why CCP should consider this okay?


I guess thats consequence of being the aggressor in a wardec.

In the system I'm proposing as long as the size of the defending coalition is smaller than the aggresssor its okay to add people to the war and see the overall size of the conflict increase. It means more fighting, more pvp, more kills and more chaos in hisec. And I'd see it as a natural consequence of a vast nullsec alliance issuing a wardec against a much smaller target.

I mean rl wise (these are always terrible).

Germany invades Poland.
UK allies with Poland.
German allies wardec UK
UK allies wardec German Coalition.
German allies wardec UK coalition.
German allies **** off US.
US wardecs German allies.
Soon all the world is at WAR.

Things spiral out of control and end up much bigger than they started.

Its war baby.

Effectively the choice needs to be made between Inferno wardecs being.

A) A griefing tool for large alliances against small alliances while being defended from consequence or counteraction.

or

B) Genuine dynamic evolving war situations that can grow larger and more impressive through player ingenuity.


Option A is rather sadly limiting and definitely doesn't let players play with the sandbox.

What we have in Inferno currently is a superpower wardeccing a small alliance that is being joined by a coalition of small allies and widening the war. Decision is whether that kind of thing is good for eve or not.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Markius TheShed
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
#284 - 2012-06-12 18:04:44 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Can we flip the discussion around for a moment and ask why, given wardec costs, unlimited corps should be able to effectively wardec whoever they want for free by simply riding on someone else's coattails? I mean, that's what you're offering people, really. You're not saying "Oh woe is me, come defend me from the evil goonies", you're saying "Come wardec goons for free" and letting people avoid the system.

So can you please justify why CCP should consider this okay?


Because this is a evil sandbox and bad things happen.

And this patch is called Inferno because everyone is suppose to be on fire and fighting.

Instead of making it easier to get fights 1.1 is bringing in more rules to stop fights, The Inferno is having cold water poured on it.

**Murientor Tribe** a capsuleer organization composed of radical Minmatar. Since YC107
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#285 - 2012-06-12 18:08:46 UTC
Markius TheShed wrote:
corestwo wrote:
Can we flip the discussion around for a moment and ask why, given wardec costs, unlimited corps should be able to effectively wardec whoever they want for free by simply riding on someone else's coattails? I mean, that's what you're offering people, really. You're not saying "Oh woe is me, come defend me from the evil goonies", you're saying "Come wardec goons for free" and letting people avoid the system.

So can you please justify why CCP should consider this okay?


Because this is a evil sandbox and bad things happen.

And this patch is called Inferno because everyone is suppose to be on fire and fighting.

Instead of making it easier to get fights 1.1 is bringing in more rules to stop fights, The Inferno is having cold water poured on it.



Inferno 1.1 "guys guys people took us seriously and tried settting the wardec system on fire - quick set off the sprinkler system!"

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#286 - 2012-06-12 18:15:06 UTC
Just chiming in that I think the idea of limiting mercs is good. Unlimited allies means you just bring in whoever you want, and in the future marketplace makes little sense.

The idea being to work with limited resources, and thus hire the best mercs you can for your situation and your wallet.

Having it be unlimited means just blanket adding anyone who wants in, and negates any reputation or negotiation a merc corp may have/want to make.

Why would you pay "super awesome merc corp X" 300m Isk to ally with you, when you can get 4 other corporations for free getting the same number of people.

Adding cost, and limitations, means having to make a choice in your allys, the best mercs will command the highest premiums, and the market will decide their worth.

Having unlimited, essentially negates that market ability.


Things that get pink's approval:

-Missile flares
-Drake thing (i don't fly them but they look better)
-Incursion Rollbacks, These have been DEAD since the nerf.
-The amount of dev feedback in this thread. Players appreciate it, despite the outrage some players have.

Things that pink has mixed feelings on:
-Minmatar V3'ing. I don't fly them, so I don't really care much, but I do think the core complexion color scheme should be changed. I dislike that they essentially just stole the Khanid scheme, there are plenty of different options available, why make them so similar?
-V3 brightening...Just how bright <.< I like the new darker amarr ships despite those who want hello kitty in space brightness. Those Carthum ships make it painful to loose simply because they are so pretty to look at. (given the guardian face plate is strange)
Markius TheShed
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
#287 - 2012-06-12 18:16:05 UTC
Seriously don't any of you who are supporting Goons see the irony in them complaining about it not being fair that people can Dec them for free, When their whole ethos is that eve is unfair??

**Murientor Tribe** a capsuleer organization composed of radical Minmatar. Since YC107
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#288 - 2012-06-12 18:18:15 UTC
I did not ask about "consequences of being a large aggressor." What I asked was why an unlimited number of corps who may also be interested in wardeccing us, but not in the price, should be allowed to so easily circumvent the system.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#289 - 2012-06-12 18:20:49 UTC
corestwo wrote:
I did not ask about "consequences of being a large aggressor." What I asked was why an unlimited number of corps who may also be interested in wardeccing us, but not in the price, should be allowed to so easily circumvent the system.


As I said thats the consequence of you making wardecs. If you want the hordes of corps to have to pay to wardec you then don't dec people. Thats a strategic decision your leadership can make.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#290 - 2012-06-12 18:22:42 UTC
Fuujin wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:

The first stage of the argument is a bit bunkum because it assumes that an entity like SF or Honda Accord would be paying for mercs in any situation on receipt of those wardecs and the answer is no.


Found your problem; its your incessantly self-centered argument.

So you and issler won't hire mercs; fine. What about the research alliance that gets dec'd? Or the small industrial group? Will you ignore their needs to defend their towers/assets/members?

Take the focus off yourself and consider the typical situation. Allowing for unlimited free allies is a Bad Thing for merc competitiveness because it dilutes the War History as a determinant of quality.


Actually, we will hire mercs if required, we've done it in the past and folks like Noir have been awesome for us. I also hope we can get to a solution that lets us still have a reasonable number of "free" help to even the numbers then pay to add "specialist" to make it even more painful to an aggressor.

I just wanted to say I hope for an outcome that results in a healthy merc market too.

Issler
Markius TheShed
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
#291 - 2012-06-12 18:25:24 UTC
corestwo wrote:
I did not ask about "consequences of being a large aggressor." What I asked was why an unlimited number of corps who may also be interested in wardeccing us, but not in the price, should be allowed to so easily circumvent the system.


Why is it fair that your war dec cost is 50m and the small corp you decced would have to pay 500m to dec you? When you have Trillions of isk and they only have a billion.

Like i said Eve isn't fair but when its you it seems that's not allowed

**Murientor Tribe** a capsuleer organization composed of radical Minmatar. Since YC107
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#292 - 2012-06-12 18:30:01 UTC
Should the war dec fee take into account the actual 'real' member count who actually visit/live in high sec?
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#293 - 2012-06-12 18:32:18 UTC
Arbitrary price increases and numbers limitations are stupid.

Just give us a real "mercenary marketplace" UI where anyone, aggressor, defender, or even people not currently at war can go to hire mercs for wars. All we need is a list of corps that have flagged themselves as available mercenaries, the ability to look up their war history, and a contract system that is negotiable around price, duration, and war targets.

The current system is more than just a little silly and very un-sandboxy. It gets even sillier with the proposed changes.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#294 - 2012-06-12 18:32:30 UTC
Not to interrupt Jade's fifteenth page of "**** the mercs only care about me", have the new FW LP store items been listed?

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Syndic Thrass
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#295 - 2012-06-12 18:33:17 UTC
Guys, fofo causes lag.

Reguards, Iskies-mommies-toonies-corpies-goonies 0707 m8m8m8
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#296 - 2012-06-12 18:34:28 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
Jade Constantine wrote:
As I said thats the consequence of you making wardecs. If you want the hordes of corps to have to pay to wardec you then don't dec people. Thats a strategic decision your leadership can make.

Obviously, CCP disagrees.

Marlona Sky wrote:
Should the war dec fee take into account the actual 'real' member count who actually visit/live in high sec?

Too easy to game.

Mechael wrote:
Arbitrary price increases and numbers limitations are stupid.

Just give us a real "mercenary marketplace" UI where anyone, aggressor, defender, or even people not currently at war can go to hire mercs for wars. All we need is a list of corps that have flagged themselves as available mercenaries, the ability to look up their war history, and a contract system that is negotiable around price, duration, and war targets.

The current system is more than just a little silly and very un-sandboxy. It gets even sillier with the proposed changes.

War contracts. This is honestly what I thought of when CCP was talking about "mercenary marketplace", not this "hey we'll just offer our services through this here button" thing.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Synthetic Cultist
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#297 - 2012-06-12 18:46:53 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Not to interrupt Jade's fifteenth page of "**** the mercs only care about me", have the new FW LP store items been listed?


There's new shirts in the FW Lp stores, that aren't available elsewhere.

might be other items, but those are the only ones I know are new.

Synthia 1, Empress of Kaztropol.

It is Written.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#298 - 2012-06-12 18:49:57 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
As I said thats the consequence of you making wardecs. If you want the hordes of corps to have to pay to wardec you then don't dec people. Thats a strategic decision your leadership can make.

Obviously, CCP disagrees.


Not entirely - just adds an administrative overhead. In 1.1 we'll need a "foreign legion" alliance in as our zero cost ally and allow any corp in that wants to dec you for free to join up without rules or restriction.

Will still be effectively unlimited and free but simply rules alliances out of the equation which is a shame.

Shrug really.

The unfortunate thing is the wardec system could be so much more if only some thought had gone into this change.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Markius TheShed
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
#299 - 2012-06-12 19:11:41 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Not to interrupt Jade's fifteenth page of "**** the mercs only care about me", have the new FW LP store items been listed?


There are 2 new shirts male and female and they cost 2/3 the price of a typhoon fleet issue.

So must be made of unobtanium

**Murientor Tribe** a capsuleer organization composed of radical Minmatar. Since YC107
Artik Fawkes
FIatline
Shadow Cartel
#300 - 2012-06-12 19:34:15 UTC
War mechanics aside, there's an art issue I saw that's pretty pressing. This issue existed with the Fleet Tempest for years, but now it's present with all Tempest variants. I have images here to illustrate. The piece below the bridge is a normals issue: one side is textured, but the other isn't. The gunnery bridge, as it appears to be, is supposed to have a cylindrical piece connecting it to the actual gunnery platform. I love this hull, and would like to see this issue taken care of.