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CCP Why is it so hard to get concrete information on Incarna's multiplayer establishments?
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Flamespar
WarRavens
#1 - 2011-10-06 03:11:21 UTC
There have been numerous requests for some sort of indication on the what and when for the multiplayer establishments of Incarna..

Recently we were told that multiplayer establishments were almost ready to go onto singularity.

Now they seem to have vanished from the winter expansion feature list completely.

Whilst I recognise some players don't want Incarna, much in the same way I don't want to do PI, or slam my testicles in a door. At the very least CCP could say whether they actualy intend to finish the current expansion, or whether Incarna is on hold once the rest of the CQs come out and they work on FiS stuff.

I returned to EVE for Incarna and all of it's promises (big mistake, I know). Can you at least give a straight answer on when you will deliver the multiplayer establishments?

This year? Great. In two years time? Great, at least then I'd I f**king know. I could stop playing this endless game of wait and see.
Astrid Stjerna
Sebiestor Tribe
#2 - 2011-10-06 03:35:51 UTC
Flamespar wrote:
There have been numerous requests for some sort of indication on the what and when for the multiplayer establishments of Incarna..

Recently we were told that multiplayer establishments were almost ready to go onto singularity.

Now they seem to have vanished from the winter expansion feature list completely.

Whilst I recognise some players don't want Incarna, much in the same way I don't want to do PI, or slam my ********* in a door. At the very least CCP could say whether they actualy intend to finish the current expansion, or whether Incarna is on hold once the rest of the CQs come out and they work on FiS stuff.

I returned to EVE for Incarna and all of it's promises (big mistake, I know). Can you at least give a straight answer on when you will deliver the multiplayer establishments?

This year? Great. In two years time? Great, at least then I'd I f**king know. I could stop playing this endless game of wait and see.


*Sigh*

Why, oh why, don't people ever read all of the available information?

It was clearly stated that the list that was posted is not a finalized list. They may add more, or take something off -- but it's subject to change.

I can't get rid of my darn signature!  Oh, wait....
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2011-10-06 03:41:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Stormshadow
After reading between the lines I let myself believe, that CCP is unable to provide you solid answer for that question. Remaining quarters are late (but coming very soon as were in singularity already). Many modules which will be used in establishments are ready, but the thing is... CQ stage was supposed to take much less time. By giving you a solid answer they would most likely fail to deliver or deliver half finished product. It is better that they work with it in peace and finish what they are doing.

I also let myself believe that Hilmar said _indirectly_ in his post that Incarna development will continue until it is finished, but main focus will be the content described in the other blog.

You probably get some official answer later. These are only my opinions and are not worth much.

Xmas? Most likely wouldn't happen even they steam rolled towards that with full crew :)

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Flamespar
WarRavens
#4 - 2011-10-06 03:42:30 UTC
Astrid Stjerna wrote:

*Sigh*

Why, oh why, don't people ever read all of the available information?

It was clearly stated that the list that was posted is not a finalized list. They may add more, or take something off -- but it's subject to change.


Why, oh why, can't you see the obvious absence of a feature that they have already promised to deliver?

Why, oh why, can't you read the title of this thread, which was about getting concrete information?

And finally I don't give a damn if it makes it in, or if it doesn't, I just want some closure, which a date would provide.
mechtech
Ice Liberation Army
#5 - 2011-10-06 03:47:23 UTC
Flamespar wrote:
Astrid Stjerna wrote:

*Sigh*

Why, oh why, don't people ever read all of the available information?

It was clearly stated that the list that was posted is not a finalized list. They may add more, or take something off -- but it's subject to change.


Why, oh why, can't you see the obvious absence of a feature that they have already promised to deliver?

Why, oh why, can't you read the title of this thread, which was about getting concrete information?

And finally I don't give a damn if it makes it in, or if it doesn't, I just want some closure, which a date would provide.


CCP doesn't have concrete date. That's the entire point of the CEO letter, that pushing out unfinished features is a bad thing to do. They have to keep iterating on it until it's ready, and that's just not something you can predict.

It's done when it's done is the best policy to have, as much as you may not like to hear it. AAA game developers don't give hard dates for this very reason (ID and Valve both come to mind).
Flamespar
WarRavens
#6 - 2011-10-06 03:58:56 UTC
mechtech wrote:

It's done when it's done is the best policy to have, as much as you may not like to hear it. AAA game developers don't give hard dates for this very reason (ID and Valve both come to mind).


Firstly Valve and ID don't give out any dates, hard or otherwise. That's why we love them.

But at least in their case we don't pay for the product and then get told "ok now that you've paid, you'll get it eventually, but we want to iterate on it for a while, and we're not prepared to give you a date, cause we are a AAA game developer and for some reason that means we don't have to make do anything silly, like actually commit to a date.'

Kidding aside. I think Grey Stormshadow is on the right track. I think CCP is commited to Incarna being a seamless part of EVE, but has put it on hold pending the FiS improvements. Multiplayer establishments will arrive at some point next year (maybe).

At the very least, they could say it though.
Gwenywell Shumuku
#7 - 2011-10-06 04:21:42 UTC
Lets face it, AT THIS STAGE they can't deliver Incarna's establishments AND focus on FIS.

Establishments + gameplay is something that is not even designed yet (there is 0 information what gameplay we are even talking about besides bars+minigames).

Lets not talk about running Incarna + 64 players in 1 room from a technical standpoint. Good luck with that. If they are SMART, they let us invite 2-5 ppl into our CQs. So at least some can show there NEX stuff to others (omg lol, but hey, some want to do that).

And, if they want to release DUST next year, it's a good marketing move to release Incarna 2.0 the same time for PC users as they don't get anything worthwhile from just DUST.

So, FIS focus this winter, Incarna 2.0 + DUST next summer (tied to big fanfest annoucement bla bla).

Thats how i would do it.
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#8 - 2011-10-06 04:32:51 UTC
Flamespar wrote:
Astrid Stjerna wrote:

*Sigh*

Why, oh why, don't people ever read all of the available information?

It was clearly stated that the list that was posted is not a finalized list. They may add more, or take something off -- but it's subject to change.


Why, oh why, can't you see the obvious absence of a feature that they have already promised to deliver?

Why, oh why, can't you read the title of this thread, which was about getting concrete information?

And finally I don't give a damn if it makes it in, or if it doesn't, I just want some closure, which a date would provide.



The absence of the feature on the list is because they don't have concrete information on it. Why don't they have any? Cause it is still in an unpredictable stage of development where things can change the date drastically. Just cause it's not on the list doesn't mean they have broken the promise cause they never promised by when they would do it.

They never said that establishments were ready for SiSi....that was the other 3 CQs

I would like a link of them saying otherwise.

See the problem with not being able to give set in stone dates about things is cause CCP does simultaneous development and research (and some times "research" just means trial and error in house testing). If it was PURELY just development then projects would be much easier to predict. But a lot of stuff they do is either new stuff or has lots of little unexpected twists...usually from old shoddy code that probably wasn't built to do the thing they are trying to do with it. This results in trying to jury rig existing code to make it work, which usually creates a lot of time consuming bugs to track down that all can take variable amounts of time to solve, OOOOR total rewrites of the section which are also time consuming themselves as well as the bug hunting after new system is in place. The good news though is that CCP is working on replacing the old code bit by bit so that they only have to use the later option once and then from then on the code is familiar and easily extendable. An example of this would be the Carbon UI.

The Drake is a Lie
Flamespar
WarRavens
#9 - 2011-10-06 04:50:06 UTC
Xercodo wrote:

They never said that establishments were ready for SiSi....that was the other 3 CQs
I.


I had a quick look and found this. Not the item I was thinking of, but close enough.

http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2355

Quote:

Incarna 1.1 will see the results of our progress on improving the existing CQ, and later this year we plan on deploying the remaining racial quarters to Tranquility as well as the next Incarna feature, establishments


Later this year we plan on deploying the next Incarna feature, establishments.
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#10 - 2011-10-06 05:35:25 UTC
Well that didn't say they were so close to ready that they were going to go on Sisi did it?

Nitpicking aside I think that it would be reasonably realistic considering all of the new player interaction and art that will need to go into something like establishments for it to not make their "this year" mark.

Plans can change you know...

The Drake is a Lie
Flamespar
WarRavens
#11 - 2011-10-06 05:43:51 UTC
Xercodo wrote:
Well that didn't say they were so close to ready that they were going to go on Sisi did it?

Nitpicking aside I think that it would be reasonably realistic considering all of the new player interaction and art that will need to go into something like establishments for it to not make their "this year" mark.

Plans can change you know...


Er. You do realise that if they are saying that they will have it on tranquility by the end of the year, then it is reasonable to assume it would be on singularity prior to that happening, ie sooner.
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2011-10-06 05:49:10 UTC
Well all CQ's were supposed to be out before end of august. They were running months behind even before today's announcement.

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Flamespar
WarRavens
#13 - 2011-10-06 05:51:09 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
Well all CQ's were supposed to be out before end of august. They were running months behind even before today's announcement.


Hence the original request for some sort of statement as to whether multiplayer establishments are on ice, or coming as part of the winter expansion.
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2011-10-06 05:54:38 UTC
Yep... I agree they could throw us some rough bone like "during next year" to play with.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#15 - 2011-10-06 06:13:14 UTC
No, no they are not coming at a rate that will allow them to give a time frame. Everything about this change in direction announced indicates that while Incarna will be finished, it has gone from being the end all be all(which they weren't able to make their deadlines while doing anyway) to just an additional feature, like FW.

Additionally, by giving time frames, they tie their hands. They would be better of doing the normal dev thing and tell you it will be available when it good and ready, and not a minute before.

As far as already having paid for it... You started playing just for Incarna? Because thats sure not the game most of us paid for, even if some of us do think it will make the game better. Its just a matter of priorities, and I, like most players who seem to speak up, want the game I *DID* pay for to take priority over a vanity expansion, even if that vanity expansion is a worthwhile one like Incarna.

Now stop trolling Bear

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2011-10-06 06:28:42 UTC
Flamespar wrote:
There have been numerous requests for some sort of indication on the what and when for the multiplayer establishments of Incarna..

Get out.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#17 - 2011-10-06 06:35:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
Finishing Establishments by Winter was very unlikely, and everyone should have known better by the time the CQ launch was pushed so far back to be a WINTER expansion when it was tried to be justified as a late Incarna expansion addition.



Establishments are more than just the structures.


Establishments for EVE represents the following :


Player owned station rooms, 100% customizable establishments, UI to manage customized establishments (including scripting NPCs), mutliple establishments per station, multi-player environment supporting undefined number of players, mini-games (poker, etc), Scripted NPC's, Stripper NPC actions and "clothing", social "drinking", functional environments, emotional animations (smile, sad, angry, wave), interactive environments, a concourse(??) to move between establishments, new boosters, booster trading mechanics in establishments only, player policed booster smuggling, new "local" channel, and the list goes on and on and on for establishments.


All of that is NOT getting done by winter. It's a fact, it's way too much and rushing it is just going to make it crapola. Establishments might seem like a simple addition, but really it's a whole content package that is going to be really challenging to get right, and they have ONE SHOT to do it right, so they better hit it on the head the first time.


I wish it were coming this WInter, but the fact is it just isn't.

Where I am.
mkint
#18 - 2011-10-06 06:42:59 UTC
To me, the date is less important... I'm more interested in the design goals. However, they probably don't want to publish design goals because of how bad PI is compared to what was advertised. There are a few differences though: 1)we knew from pretty early on what PI would do... that it's minimum requirements were "to make the NPC stuff." There still is no reason for Incarna to even exist except for the shinies (not a good enough reason.) 2)that PI was going to be abandoned immediately after launch, but at least it would still accomplish goal number 1. I guess that could be the case for Incarna, since once this WoD alpha test is done there is no reason for CCP to ever even think about it again, but for some reason I had it in my mind that CCP was gonna keep working on it for a couple more years before abandoning it. 3)Incarna is a front and center feature that is supposed to be "an integral part into the blah blah blah" where PI is "an easter egg flash game worthy of any highschool multimedia class." If it's supposed to be an integral part of the blah blah blah, you'd think CCP would want the players to support it rather than completely reject it as a game mechanic, which means it should be more than a big fap fest.

So, CCP, keep your timetables to yourselves... that's fine and perfectly understandable. But over the next 5 years, what is the BASIC functionality you want to see with Incarna... why should we care?

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#19 - 2011-10-06 06:44:27 UTC
PR dude.

That list was carefully crafted to appeal to a portion of the EVE player-base (read, 90% of the player-base) that couldn't care less about estabilishments.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Taiwanistan
#20 - 2011-10-06 07:23:11 UTC
i too am waiting for concrete info on incarna
the time of death and the autopsy report
beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep
get out you incarna lovin pedestrians

TA on wis: "when we have a feature that is its own functional ecosystem of gameplay then hooks into the greater ecosystem of EVE as a whole, and it provides good replayability."
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