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Mining barges love
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Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-06-07 19:14:42 UTC
Hey there.

A small suggestion that would make progressing through mining barges tree a little more fun.

Now we have three mining barges (tech 1) and three exhumers (tech 2). The problem is, the top-tier tech1 mining barge is mostly useless now (used only as a poor-man's hulk), because it requires mining barges 5 and astrogeology lvl 5, which also happen to be the prerequisites for the exhumers skill, meaning you can get into a hulk in less than 24 hours after getting skills to fly covetor. The only ones who fly a covetor now are the ones who can't afford to buy a hulk.

The idea is - lower one of the required skills (or both) from lvl 5 to level 4, so that people can get the covetor earlier and actually spend some time flying it before getting into the hulk.

Opinions?
Loius Woo
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-06-07 19:24:46 UTC
+1, I like it.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#3 - 2012-06-07 19:31:36 UTC  |  Edited by: mxzf
There was talk about changing the Mining Barge 5 prereq for the Covie to 4 during the tier rebalancing. I think that's the most reasonable thing to do to make the Covie a viable choice. That one change would chop 20d or so off the Covie training time and make it a viable ship.

Changing both of the prereqs to 4 would be a bad idea though, since the Ret requires Astrogeology 4 and Barge 3 already. If both Covie prereqs were 4, it would only take 3-4d to train from Ret to Covie. Barge 5 and Astrogeology 5 gives you ~20d from Ret to Covie and ~20d from Covie to Hulk, which sounds about right.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#4 - 2012-06-07 21:39:49 UTC
I think making the covetor better for tanking, and leave the skills as is.

The covetor mines at 5/9ths the speed of a hulk, neither being boosted or otherwise getting extra bonuses.

A Rokh, by equal comparison, mines at about 4/9ths hulk speed.

Since the covetor is just 1/9th faster, it is only a little better than a BS for mining.

(Scale of comparison uses Omber where 1/9th equals roughly 20k units per hour)
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Advanced_mining

Make the covetor easier to fit a tank on, as a trade off to other details in the OP.

Give mining pilots a reason to keep using it, even though the hulk is less than a day up in skill training.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Katalci
EVE University
Ivy League
#5 - 2012-06-07 23:49:10 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
A Rokh, by equal comparison, mines at about 4/9ths hulk speed.

Since the covetor is just 1/9th faster, it is only a little better than a BS for mining.

This is a tradeoff. The covetor does not need more tank -- if you want more tank, reduce your yield by flying a Rokh.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2012-06-08 02:38:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
I think the covetor should require mining barges 5 and astrogeology 4, the retriever mining barges 4 and astrogeology 3, and the procurer mining barges 1 and astrogeology 1. Then there's a gap in training from the procurer to retriever, and from the retriever to the covetor, and finally from the covetor to the hulk. Also, the astrogeology requirement is lower than the mining barges skill requirement so that lazy trainers may leave it not maxed, giving the more shrewd trainers an edge.

I also think the procurer should get +25% to strip miner output per level and the retriever should get +10% to strip miner output per level of mining barge, rather than the current 5%. Going from barges 3 in a procurer to barges 4 and your new retriever, rather than your mining amount more than doubling, it would go up by 60%. Then going from barges 4 in your retriever to barges 5 and your new covetor would increase your mining output not by 56.25% but only by 33.93%. The reasoning behind this?

A procurer mines about as fast as a mining frigate. Seems low for it being a dedicated mining ship.
Old yields (with mining barges 5):
Procurer: 1.25
Retriever: 2.50
Covetor: 3.75
New yields (with mining barges 5):
Procurer: 2.25
Retriever: 3.00
Covetor: 3.75

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#7 - 2012-06-08 02:59:56 UTC
Katalci wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
A Rokh, by equal comparison, mines at about 4/9ths hulk speed.

Since the covetor is just 1/9th faster, it is only a little better than a BS for mining.

This is a tradeoff. The covetor does not need more tank -- if you want more tank, reduce your yield by flying a Rokh.

You are missing the point here.

Battleships are not supposed to be that good at mining. For the covetor to be comparable while still being a mining barge, AND less than a days training before being able to use the hulk, suggests the covetor is too much skill effort for too little reward.

The only seeming value is... zero.

You can mine just as well in a Rokh, with better tank. THAT's the problem.

Noone has any good reason to use this ship. It has neither the tank, or the bonuses to justify it.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2012-06-08 03:07:17 UTC
Eija-Riitta Veitonen wrote:
Hey there.

A small suggestion that would make progressing through mining barges tree a little more fun.

Now we have three mining barges (tech 1) and three exhumers (tech 2). The problem is, the top-tier tech1 mining barge is mostly useless now (used only as a poor-man's hulk), because it requires mining barges 5 and astrogeology lvl 5, which also happen to be the prerequisites for the exhumers skill, meaning you can get into a hulk in less than 24 hours after getting skills to fly covetor. The only ones who fly a covetor now are the ones who can't afford to buy a hulk.

The idea is - lower one of the required skills (or both) from lvl 5 to level 4, so that people can get the covetor earlier and actually spend some time flying it before getting into the hulk.

Opinions?



yeah, people have been complaining about the progression spacing for years. I spent a lot of time in a covetor.. but not because I couldn't fly a hulk.. rather I needed to earn enough money to buy one... back then they were 500 million.

I think the size of top end exhumers needs to be increased also. They have the mass of a battlecrusier.. tanking ability of a t1 crusier.. and yet the agility of a freigher.. something doesn't add up. I've thought for a while they need to be more agile.. or increase in size.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#9 - 2012-06-08 04:55:08 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Katalci wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
A Rokh, by equal comparison, mines at about 4/9ths hulk speed.

Since the covetor is just 1/9th faster, it is only a little better than a BS for mining.

This is a tradeoff. The covetor does not need more tank -- if you want more tank, reduce your yield by flying a Rokh.

You are missing the point here.

Battleships are not supposed to be that good at mining. For the covetor to be comparable while still being a mining barge, AND less than a days training before being able to use the hulk, suggests the covetor is too much skill effort for too little reward.

The only seeming value is... zero.

You can mine just as well in a Rokh, with better tank. THAT's the problem.

Noone has any good reason to use this ship. It has neither the tank, or the bonuses to justify it.


People don't use hulks because covies don't have tank. They use hulks because by the time you can fly a covie, hulks are right around the corner. Tank isn't the point. Balancing skill reqs for the covie is.

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-06-08 20:55:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Eija-Riitta Veitonen
The main reason to prefer Covetor over a Rokh: Covetor can easily hold three cycles' yeld in its cargohold, whereas Rokh, erm, half? Considering Rokh's cycle is 1/3rd of a Covetor as well. So unless you're jetcan mining or have a dedicated hauler it is really useless to mine in a battleship.

And yes, lowering all two prereqs to lvl 4 is a bit of an overkill, you're right.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#11 - 2012-06-08 21:08:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikk Narrel
Sobaan Tali wrote:
People don't use hulks because covies don't have tank. They use hulks because by the time you can fly a covie, hulks are right around the corner. Tank isn't the point. Balancing skill reqs for the covie is.

This is my point. Neither Hulks or Covies have a tank. The Covie as a functional mining barge lacks justification.

I understand some people can't afford a Hulk, and might use a covetor for that reason. But seriously, this is supposed to be a genuine mining barge, how is it a repurposed battleship can come that close to it's output?

Noone with the skills and means to choose another option will fly a covetor.
Eija-Riitta Veitonen wrote:
The main reason to prefer Covetor over a Rokh: Covetor can easily hold three cycles' yeld in its cargohold, whereas Rokh, erm, half? Considering Rokh's cycle is 1/3rd of a Covetor as well. So unless you're jetcan mining or have a dedicated hauler it is really useless to mine in a battleship.

And yes, lowering all two prereqs to lvl 4 is a bit of an overkill, you're right.

That ability to store more ore means little. Unless you are shuttling the barge back and forth to a station to unload, you are most likely jet-canning the ore, and using a hauler to move it.
The described Rokh keeps up just fine like this, and looks like a prom queen winner to pilots wanting to survive ganker attempts.

Want to take risks, and get higher yield mining? The covetor is the wrong answer here too, just skill up a small amount more, and hop in a real mining machine, the Hulk.
(Fleet supervision recommended, do not pilot if using alcohol or mood influencing medications, keep out of reach of children)

Just give the covetor a reason to live. We hear the question here often enough, what role does the ship fill, that is not already filled adequately?

For the covetor? I can't see one.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-06-08 21:52:09 UTC
Well, there were times when Covetor was the end-all minind barge to get, as there were no exhumers back then. Back then it really justified the high skill requirements, but now it does not. By lowering the prereqs it'll at least see some more use for those pilots still skilling up for a hulk.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#13 - 2012-06-08 22:02:40 UTC
Eija-Riitta Veitonen wrote:
Well, there were times when Covetor was the end-all minind barge to get, as there were no exhumers back then. Back then it really justified the high skill requirements, but now it does not. By lowering the prereqs it'll at least see some more use for those pilots still skilling up for a hulk.

Moving forward, that would at least give the Covetor a training role for eventual exhumer use.

But it relegates the entirety of the T1 barge line to being obsolete due to the exhumers.

According to the new ship relationship structure, T2 is not supposed to be better, so much as more specialized.

Fine, the Hulk specialized by getting amazing bonuses. That doesn't fit well with the advertised T2 thrust.

It almost fits, after all, the Mackinaw and Skiff. They are very specialized with their designed use. This fits into the T2 description that was given solidly.

If anything, it is almost like the Hulk isn't T2, it is somehow faction with it's design. Faction was supposed to be the better at everything the T1 does, and just as general in purpose.

I would like to see the covetor with a role not made obsolete by the Hulk. it mines, and is harder to kill, is the best I can consider given available options we have seen thus far.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2012-06-09 04:17:44 UTC
I think both the Hulk and Heavy Assault Ships break the "tech 2 is specialized" thing, and even Assault Ships to some degree. Furthermore, there are several tech 1 ships that act as if they are tech 2 through having a very narrow design, such as the tech 1 logistics cruisers and the tier 3 battlecruisers.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#15 - 2012-06-10 15:23:19 UTC
Well, can't really say that AFs/HACs break the specialization doctrine, because they are more specialized than their tech1 counterparts, with their specialization being killing stuff - here we have HACs that are more tanky but losing on gank (eagle, sacrilege), getting more gank but leaving less space for tank (zealot, diemost), specializing the racial traits even further (cerberus, vaga, ishtar) or combining some of these along with manufacturer's specialty (missiles for the khanid, for example, or ultra-long range railguns for Ishukone).
Eija-Riitta Veitonen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-06-14 20:21:48 UTC
This thread has been made obsolete by CCP as per this dev blog. Much better than i've expected =]