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New dev blog: Next Unified Inventory Update

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#501 - 2012-06-08 19:19:28 UTC
Little trivia: guess how outdated the tree view is by looking at this screen shot.

Guess what Windows version was it? Yes it's that old.

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#502 - 2012-06-08 20:06:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Little trivia: guess how outdated the tree view is by looking at this screen shot.

Guess what Windows version was it? Yes it's that old.
Pff. Life-n00b. Blink

Look at this screen shot instead. That's MS-DOS 4.0, from 1988…

edit: ok, that's not a fair comparison. After all, as the screen shot clearly shows, DOSSHELL had multi-window functionality built in from the get-go.
CCP Explorer
C C P
C C P Alliance
#503 - 2012-06-08 20:38:00 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
It wasn't an admission, we have a massive number of legacy builds because we need to test against previous functionality. It's also not a case of us not believing people, it would be naive to assume that people are actively lying to us about a system. We can't open our reference servers to the public however as they have sensitive data on them (all internal mirrors are unpruned and remirroring for a reference server would cause a bunch of conflicts). It's also not quite as simple as just whacking a VM based server up and letting that be public, you're just going to have to take my word for that.
The reference servers are set up to support perhaps 5-10 users; only for internal testing purposes.

Erlendur S. Thorsteinsson | Senior Development Director | EVE Online // CCP Games | @CCP_Explorer
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#504 - 2012-06-08 21:00:07 UTC
The basic problem, as Vaerah and Tippia allude to, is that single tree views don't scale. They assume that you have a relatively small number of items, or files in the case of MS-DOS 4, and try to show you everything at once.

The more modern approach is to have a big "soup" and various ways of fishing what you want out of the soup. Your saved searches are one example of this approach, so why not start there and run with it? Replace the tree with bookmark sets (which can also be saved and loaded). You can search among your items for things that you want, save the search, and drag the search name over to the bookmarks area on the left. Then, when you're in POS you can load your POS bookmarks (or you can score lots of points by autodetecting that the player is in range of the POS, and loading those bookmarks) and have shortcuts to everything you need, right there.

Along these lines, make it really easy to open additional windows (they're just views), and make them remember state. Maybe even remember state for each set of bookmarks, so that when you pull up to your POS, everything is exactly where you left it, but when you dock in a station, everything is exactly where it was the last time you were in station.

I know it means another round of redesign, but I'm not convinced that effectively mashing the assets window into the inventory was a very good idea.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#505 - 2012-06-08 21:17:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Dersen Lowery wrote:
The more modern approach is to have a big "soup" and various ways of fishing what you want out of the soup. Your saved searches are one example of this approach, so why not start there and run with it? Replace the tree with bookmark sets (which can also be saved and loaded). You can search among your items for things that you want, save the search, and drag the search name over to the bookmarks area on the left. Then, when you're in POS you can load your POS bookmarks (or you can score lots of points by autodetecting that the player is in range of the POS, and loading those bookmarks) and have shortcuts to everything you need, right there.
That kind of works until you run up against the (intentionally designed) wall of discrete storage spaces with finite storage capacity.

Those modern approaches also include a step where you try to abstract away the underlying limitations in your storage — you don't have 5×5TB drives — you have a striped 25TB RAID0… but it's just an illusion because you still really have those 5TB per drive and the illusion only holds together as long as all five drives are there. Remove one and things break instantly.

Same goes for EVE: there are instances where you probably could treat it as a big soup (stations), but there are others where you very specifically want to access one particular subdivision of the available storage space (you really want that ammo to be in your cargo hold, and not just somewhere in the “soup” where the abstraction layer find it convenient to dump the stuff). Once you leave the station, you've lost 99% of the soup content, and without the ability to control what went into the particular discrete storage unit that is the ship, you're screwed.

So in a way, I'd say the problem is largely the opposite: that we have lost control over those subdivisions as a result to “unify” (inject an abstraction layer) the inventories.


I suppose that, yes, you're right if you're suggesting that they'd give us the “soup” model as a method to try to solve the same issues the tree view tries to solve (viz. easy access to everything), but in and of itself, it does nothing to solve the problem the tree view creates (or even makes it worse): that loss of control over the individual storage spaces. If it meant removing the tree view paradigm and going back to the old “discrete“ inventory system and then having the search layer as an option on top of that to sift through all your containers and hangars, then it would definitely work.

What you're describing is definitely a different, more modern, and possibly more scalable solution to that organisation problem, but it is only a solution to the current issues in the sense that it removes the “unified” design (and all the problems that comes with it).


tl;dr: What you're describing is the reason why the unified inventory should have been an upgrade to the Asset Window, not to the inventory windows: a completely separate viewpoint onto your total collection of inventories that can be used instead of or in conjunction with the normal inventory system (or not at all, if you have no need for it).
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#506 - 2012-06-08 21:45:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Tippia wrote:
[quote=Dersen Lowery]Same goes for EVE: there are instances where you probably could treat it as a big soup (stations), but there are others where you very specifically want to access one particular subdivision of the available storage space (you really want that ammo to be in your cargo hold, and not just somewhere in the “soup” where the abstraction layer find it convenient to dump the stuff). Once you leave the station, you've lost 99% of the soup content, and without the ability to control what went into the particular discrete storage unit that is the ship, you're screwed.


True, which is why I handwaved the "saved bookmarks" feature which would load, say, your POS bookmarks when you were near enough to your POS to interact with them, when you're in station, when you're in space, etc.. In essence, it knows when you're near a particular bowl of soup, and it remembers how you want to eat that particular bowl of soup. Or, you can order it around explicitly by loading and saving sets and opening and rearranging windows.

The idea is to take the current asked-for dichotomy between saved-windows-in-station and saved-windows-in-space, and make it user-customizable and general. For instance, you might want a different set of windows-in-space for PVP than you would for Noctis cleanup, or a different set for different POSes, which are in turn different from your default in-station set. You'd just set up and then save different sets of bookmarks for each, and then they would all be one drop-down menu (or keyboard shortcut) away. I should have made that clearer, but that's what happens when you sit down to type and start handwaving. :-)

The most important thing is the inventory allow you a maximally convenient way to access and organize the resources that are available to you at that moment. Everything else can get kicked to the assets window.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Captain' Jack Sparrow
#507 - 2012-06-08 21:57:35 UTC
OK, now that I am at the correct "official" thread (thank you CCP Explorer) I am hoping to get an answer.

The Unified Inventory, as described on CCP's own website, does NOT seem to be the same as the Unified Inventory that I am forced to use in-game.

Quote:
Unified Inventory - Your entire fortune in a single click

You have hangars of ships at your disposal and wealth that spans the galaxy. Unified Inventory gives you convenient access to all of it. Searching for your favorite ship is now easier. Assessing your stockpiles, more convenient. Admiring the fruits of your labors, more rewarding.


Taken from this page --->>> http://www.eveonline.com/inferno/unified-inventory-ftr/

To me, it seems like this "feature" was intended to be used under the assets tab, and then got sidetracked into this mess we have now. In my opinion, the assets tab is the perfect place for this new toy.

Could a DEV please explain what has happened here? Your website contradicts the reality of the game.

Thank you so much.


Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#508 - 2012-06-08 22:14:19 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
True, which is why I handwaved the "saved bookmarks" feature which would load, say, your POS bookmarks when you were near enough to your POS to interact with them, when you're in station, when you're in space, etc.. In essence, it knows when you're near a particular bowl of soup, and it remembers how you want to eat that particular bowl of soup. Or, you can order it around explicitly by loading and saving sets and opening and rearranging windows.
Ah, yes, I didn't quite get the full extent of what you meant there.

Yes, that would be nifty as hell… and equally “as hell” to program. P
Challu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#509 - 2012-06-08 22:23:51 UTC
Captain' Jack Sparrow wrote:
OK, now that I am at the correct "official" thread (thank you CCP Explorer) I am hoping to get an answer.

The Unified Inventory, as described on CCP's own website, does NOT seem to be the same as the Unified Inventory that I am forced to use in-game.

Quote:
Unified Inventory - Your entire fortune in a single click

You have hangars of ships at your disposal and wealth that spans the galaxy. Unified Inventory gives you convenient access to all of it. Searching for your favorite ship is now easier. Assessing your stockpiles, more convenient. Admiring the fruits of your labors, more rewarding.


Taken from this page --->>> http://www.eveonline.com/inferno/unified-inventory-ftr/

To me, it seems like this "feature" was intended to be used under the assets tab, and then got sidetracked into this mess we have now. In my opinion, the assets tab is the perfect place for this new toy.

Could a DEV please explain what has happened here? Your website contradicts the reality of the game.

Thank you so much.





Good point!

What happened, CCP? You had the right idea initially, how did you get side-tracked..!
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#510 - 2012-06-08 22:47:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
when i switch ships cargohold window doesn't switch to active ship. Stupid. Bring back the old UI this new thing has WAAAY too many issues. Shift click on inactive ship DOES NOT open it's cargo window anymore. What? Really? Anything i try to use is super messed up.
Tao Arnst
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#511 - 2012-06-08 22:48:07 UTC
Covert Kitty wrote:
The main thing to remember is that this is the right direction. Yes, they messed up the release a bit, it wasn't ready and they should have known that. However the old inventory system is pretty terrible, so once they get the issues and limitations with the new system worked out, it will be a net gain, and thats good for everyone.

Sure as hell beats being completely ignored for 2 years. The interface as a whole is pretty horrendous, so I am VERY pleased that they are working on it.

The new system is probably also easier to maintain and expand on internally, so hopefully it will set the stage for other improvements like ACL's for rights management of containers/hangers/arrays, and eventually a POS redo.


The right direction is to remove this broken ui altogether and put back the UNBROKEN ui.
How was the previous inventory "terrible"?
Why spend months to fix issues with this broken ui and not just return back to the previous UNBROKEN ui? Is there a thread that explains even WHY they decided to get rid of the previous inventory? And WHY they have such a hard-on about this broken ui?

I don't care about the next "release 2.0" unless it has been tested by people who REALLY play the game FIRST on sisi.
DON'T bother to release your next "big mess" until you clean this "inferno mess" FIRST.

EVERYTHING else, like ships designs, imaginary smoke in space, or any other "improvements", DOESN'T matter if the ui is broke.

tbh...I'm dreading this so-called release on the 19th, just imagine how many more things will be broken? The game is unplayable as it stands now, the best you can do is sit in station and look at all the "pretty" "improvements".

Was the Title "Inferno" given to this release because its a Steaming Pile of S**t? Most people embrace GOOD change Parasites embrace BAD change ccp supports the degradation of society

Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#512 - 2012-06-08 22:49:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
Challu wrote:
Captain' Jack Sparrow wrote:
OK, now that I am at the correct "official" thread (thank you CCP Explorer) I am hoping to get an answer.

The Unified Inventory, as described on CCP's own website, does NOT seem to be the same as the Unified Inventory that I am forced to use in-game.

Quote:
Unified Inventory - Your entire fortune in a single click

You have hangars of ships at your disposal and wealth that spans the galaxy. Unified Inventory gives you convenient access to all of it. Searching for your favorite ship is now easier. Assessing your stockpiles, more convenient. Admiring the fruits of your labors, more rewarding.


Taken from this page --->>> http://www.eveonline.com/inferno/unified-inventory-ftr/

To me, it seems like this "feature" was intended to be used under the assets tab, and then got sidetracked into this mess we have now. In my opinion, the assets tab is the perfect place for this new toy.

Could a DEV please explain what has happened here? Your website contradicts the reality of the game.

Thank you so much.





Good point!

What happened, CCP? You had the right idea initially, how did you get side-tracked..!


I have an idea, let's make a billion dollars. Now the question is how? Uh, i tried some google ads for 10 minutes but failed to make a billion dollars. They don't know how.
Challu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#513 - 2012-06-08 22:56:47 UTC
Dream Five wrote:


I have an idea, let's make a billion dollars. Now the question is how? Uh, i tried some google ads for 10 minutes but failed to make a billion dollars. They don't know how.


That went right over my head - what?
Elijah Craig
Trask Industries
#514 - 2012-06-08 23:03:01 UTC
The tree-panel is automaticly resizing when i resize the whole inventory window. This is really annoying. I'm not resizing the whole window to see more of the tree panel, I'm doing it to line up the columns of the items or to resize the tems view.

I fear this is some funky "UI Design" thing and is intentional as it proportionally resizes the whole window for me. Please keep the tree panel width static and only adjust it when I adjust that pane, not when I resize the whole window.
Jonuts
The Arrow Project
#515 - 2012-06-08 23:03:26 UTC
Meytal wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
It's also not a case of us not believing people, it would be naive to assume that people are actively lying to us about a system.

Someone with better forum-fu than I can provide you with a Dev quote to refute this.


CCP Optimal wrote:

We did not ignore feedback at all. In some cases we didn't agree. In some cases we did agree and made changes. In some cases we felt that players weren't even giving the new proposed way of doing things a chance and that it might just be a matter of getting used to. It's certain that we didn't get everything right the first time around. That's why we have iteration.


Yea. They didn't say we LIED. They just implied we're too ******* stupid to give believable feedback. Though I'll definitely point out that they DID ignore feedback, or this inventory system would never have made it off the test server. Especially that last week that was full of people BEGGING them not to port this crap to live. Most everything they've "fixed" was pointed out to them on the test server as well, but utterly ignored.

Optimal quote at...
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1376279#post1376279
Sturmwolke
#516 - 2012-06-08 23:09:45 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
True, which is why I handwaved the "saved bookmarks" feature which would load, say, your POS bookmarks when you were near enough to your POS to interact with them, when you're in station, when you're in space, etc.. In essence, it knows when you're near a particular bowl of soup, and it remembers how you want to eat that particular bowl of soup. Or, you can order it around explicitly by loading and saving sets and opening and rearranging windows.
Ah, yes, I didn't quite get the full extent of what you meant there.

Yes, that would be nifty as hell… and equally “as hell” to program. P


Ah, no. The "soup model" goes against the grain for probably the majority of users.
(You're basically asking them to disbelieve how the modern OS works - which they're currently using on everyday basis)

Imagine all the items you have in one station, without containers ... one big soup. Then you have only custom filters to sort them out.
A few significant things pop to mind:
- overcomplicate the steps to categorize items by demanding users build a custom filter (a big turn off), as opposed to just chucking them into a container/folder (label, chuck and forget).
- since the filter's fairly basic, sooner or later, you will run into the scaling problem of having too many custom filters in your list.
- saving the custom filter list. On the server - unlikely. Client - most likely, which you'll end up overcomplicating migration from one computer to the other.

You don't end up solving anything. You end up overcomplicating things for the average users.

Utilizing bookmarks or favourites (they're basically an upgraded custom filter) to directly solve design issues with the UI is, imo bad design.
Bookmarks or favourites should be utilized as a complement, not an integral part of the UI.
Par'Gellen
#517 - 2012-06-08 23:15:39 UTC
Captain' Jack Sparrow wrote:
OK, now that I am at the correct "official" thread (thank you CCP Explorer) I am hoping to get an answer.

The Unified Inventory, as described on CCP's own website, does NOT seem to be the same as the Unified Inventory that I am forced to use in-game.

Quote:
Unified Inventory - Your entire fortune in a single click

You have hangars of ships at your disposal and wealth that spans the galaxy. Unified Inventory gives you convenient access to all of it. Searching for your favorite ship is now easier. Assessing your stockpiles, more convenient. Admiring the fruits of your labors, more rewarding.


Taken from this page --->>> http://www.eveonline.com/inferno/unified-inventory-ftr/

To me, it seems like this "feature" was intended to be used under the assets tab, and then got sidetracked into this mess we have now. In my opinion, the assets tab is the perfect place for this new toy.

Could a DEV please explain what has happened here? Your website contradicts the reality of the game.

Thank you so much.


100% agree! The treeview would have been WELCOMED in the assets list. Who dropped the ball and got it confused with the crap it is now?

"To err is human", but it shouldn't be the company motto...
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#518 - 2012-06-08 23:51:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
Challu wrote:
Dream Five wrote:


I have an idea, let's make a billion dollars. Now the question is how? Uh, i tried some google ads for 10 minutes but failed to make a billion dollars. They don't know how.


That went right over my head - what?


There's a long way from having a great idea to implementing it. You can have arbitrary ideas. They had a good idea, let's make things better. They tried implementing it but lets say slightly failed.
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#519 - 2012-06-08 23:52:20 UTC
Elijah Craig wrote:
The tree-panel is automaticly resizing when i resize the whole inventory window. This is really annoying. I'm not resizing the whole window to see more of the tree panel, I'm doing it to line up the columns of the items or to resize the tems view.

I fear this is some funky "UI Design" thing and is intentional as it proportionally resizes the whole window for me. Please keep the tree panel width static and only adjust it when I adjust that pane, not when I resize the whole window.


As I said.. Separate "The Tree" into a completely separate window that adjusts to currently selected window. Roll back the rest of the UI.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#520 - 2012-06-08 23:54:46 UTC
I remember a long time ago asking for tabbed personal hangers ala corp windows, or more percisley, bumping someone elses thread for that idea. It would do away with Having to use many cans for the same purpose, and still let you use cans for that exact purpose.

The new UI to some extent does do that, but only if i have the cans already, and they don't let me use more cans to subdivide.

I dont really understand the basic premise of the unification of inventory.

How does it help me move things around,

what does one window do for me that many windows did not?

what asset management issues does the single window address that the multiple non-integrated windows did not?

what in space features does the unified inventory window give that multiple non integrated windows do not?

please reiterate what the underlying themes/goals the unification of inventory windows was supposed to achieve. and more to the point, how it was supposed to help us in our day to day movements of material (from station to ship, ship to ship, wreck/can to ship, pos modules to ship and any other way of moving things in game)

I also wonder how you got from this (its from teh UI dev blog)
CCP Arrow wrote:
What do all EVE players have in common? They need to use Inventory windows. A lot of them...


to this

CCP Arrow wrote:
So, what’s the opposite of multiple windows? After weeks of research and multiple rejected hypotheses we came up with what we are certain is the correct answer: a single window


Shouldn't the premise of the second question be
rewrite wrote:
So, what's the opposite of a lot of windows?After weeks of research and multiple rejected hypotheses we came up with what we are certain is the correct answer: a few (or fewer) windows


also rereading the dev blog reminded me that he also wrote this ->
CCP Arrow wrote:
we came up with what we are certain is the correct answer: a single window (please tell us it’s the right one).


I think we have told you what out answer is.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.