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Does the 'PvPers are Sociopaths' argument bother anyone else?
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Sebastian N Cain
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2012-06-06 19:38:15 UTC
No wrongdoing any eve-player has ever done could be as bad as this!

Therefore there is no reason to be bothered, there are worse out there, much worse...

I got lost in thought... it was unfamiliar territory.
Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2012-06-06 20:06:15 UTC
Ten Bulls wrote:
Hmm, so your sayin its the solo miners that are mining the minerals that almost every item in eve is constructed from are the ones that are unable to relate to EVE society.
That the players that shoot those defenseless mining ships are actually helping EVE as a group by making those naughty miners stop with their selfish activities...

I cant possibly think think of any flaws in that argument, no sir no flaws in that logic, we just get rid of the selfish primary producers and the rest of society will be just fine. Or your making excuses to justify your previous beliefs, one or the other.


The thing you are forgetting is that they do it for money. Not for the community. Dear god your post was painful to read.

Hello, hello again.
Khadann
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#143 - 2012-06-06 20:34:35 UTC
Knus'lar wrote:
I see this quite a bit in the rage threads lately. From my perspective, i see a lot of carebears mud flinging, and calling anyone who ganks or does pvp a sociopath. Because apparently only a sociopath would do such a thing. But really, it just seems like a vain attempt at taking the moral high ground.

For real, do some people honestly believe people act the same in game as they do in real life?



That is funny, i have read the exact same thing about high sec pilots these last weeks :s
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#144 - 2012-06-06 21:21:19 UTC
Spy 21 wrote:
Who doesn't want to be the cool kid who runs around killing folks randomly without seeming to care about consequence or reputation... who has the skill to pull off such ganks, the balls to actually pvp, who does not seem at all constrained by societies norms... those norms which so hinder themselves.

There's nothing wrong with that fantasy, but it doesn't appeal to me.

I can't say how many people share my tastes. I doubt I'm an utter aberration though.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Gitanmaxx
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#145 - 2012-06-06 21:25:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Gitanmaxx
stop trying to defend yourself by calling yourselves PvPers.

PvP means player vs player, not being a d-bag. The two are not one in the same and no one has ever attacked pvp as a whole in this way. People who are jerks like to try and misconstrue the point to this to defend themselves.

Bottom line if you're a d-bag and a jerk to people just because you can get away with it on the internet you are a loser. No it's not your pvp-ing that makes you a loser, it's the way you do it and they are not the same thing so stop trying to hide behind the term pvp. they are not one and the same.

pvp does not stand for scam whoever whenever, annoy people for no personal gain other than the sadistic pleasure you get from griefing, or in general being a socially inept arse-hat just because you're a loser in real life and want to bully others to feel better about yourselves.
pvp stands for player vs. player, which does not include any of the above in it's definition. it is merely matching your skills against another human being. Something that many of us do in every game we play without the need to be obnoxious tools about.


one more time for the slow folks out there.

The definition of PvP is not being a d-bag, so when someone calls you out on being said douche don't reply with "what you don't like pvp?" because that's not what they're making fun of you for.
Svarek
#146 - 2012-06-06 21:50:04 UTC
I like the part where people think their feelings on a subject mean it's right or wrong.

Whoops.
Katja Faith
Doomheim
#147 - 2012-06-06 21:55:44 UTC
PVPers are not sociopaths.

They're just kids, and kids do whatever they want to have fun. Example: the behaviour of the disgraced lawyer at FanFest, and his goose-steppers on the boards shortly thereafter. Lol
Horus Ernaga
Doomheim
#148 - 2012-06-06 21:59:16 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Quote:


You are getting there, but have still missed the point.

Non consentual combat in all it's forms is completely the norm, the whole game is designed around it.

People get confused on a subconcious level when they see Concord retaliate and blow up a suicide ganker. In the back of their head they see an in game authority figure punishing someone for criminal behavior and think "this person is breaking the rules and doing something fundamentally wrong... what's wrong with him."

This is, of course, nonsense.

That ganker has done literally nothing wrong and is playing the game well within the rules. In fact, a large amount of programming was done specifically to allow him to do this. It would have been far simpler to simply not allow weapons activation in high sec unless it is against a war target or someone with a GCC. Instead a great deal of effort went into making it possible to suicide gank, but in a manner that had very measured penalties to it as well.

Suicide ganker does not equal griefer, exploiter, rule breaker, cheater, sociopath or anything else other than simply being another player playing EVE by the rules.



Wrong within the game rules perhaps. That isn't the whats at question here. The real question is why are these players specifically targeting those that do with wish to be targeted. More so than that, in a game with PVP why target the weakest who pose no threat, and claim it's for the emotional response? Targeting people for gross profit in high sec is one thing, but this is altogether a different animal. Finding a freighter on it's way to Jita loaded with goodies and unprotected, then dispatching a group to kill it is one thing. Takes some effort and training. Seeking and destroying miners in belts takes 10 days of training to accomplish and little forethought. It's unfortunate that people do not think it is in some way unfair.

If instead of the various reasons people claim to target miners they stated a truth in the matter, it's easy and takes little effort and make more than you lose (Average gains come out far ahead, especially when paid after 10 kills), you wouldn't have forum posts such as the OPs.

As for the separating reality from fiction aspect, I can not go with with argument. I remember losing my very first hulk to gankers 3 days or so after purchasing it. I even took time to generate a buffer of isk, and collect what was posted all over as "well tanked hulk", you know the one, some deaadspace gear with a small shield booster. Destoryer warp into the belt, "Hrmm must be ratting" In local: "Sorry dude just killed them". Couple more warp in and suddenly I'm being targeted scrammed and webbed, in seconds there goes my hulk tanked and all. You might be sitting there thinking well that was dumb of you. Your almost right, I was still rather new to both eve and pvp oriented games. Did I get a little upset at losing my ship? Absolutely. Because I --really-- did sit here at my computer in --real life-- for several weeks to acquire the assets to afford the hulk and fitting, plus buffer. Not to mention my fitting proved absolutely useless against a much less expensive opponent, in high security space. I could see locking me down in low sec and having time to beat me down against a group of destroyers sure, if that was the case my drones might of been enough to ward them off, if it wasn't sooo fast. Add the fact ehrn I got back out to the belt nothing was looted. The deadspace gear was destroyed in the explosion. All 3 T2 lasers were there and several others. Confusion ensued. It may of been just pixels lost from your side but it was also real time spent by me. Some obscenities were yelled, followed by a short duration of confusion and bewilderment. Then I spent my buffer on a new covetor and went back to mining for another hulk. Which I never made it to. Having to jump out of a belt over and over every time someone came in got old fast.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#149 - 2012-06-06 22:24:52 UTC
Katja Faith wrote:
PVPers are not sociopaths.

They're just kids, and kids do whatever they want to have fun. Example: the behaviour of the disgraced lawyer at FanFest, and his goose-steppers on the boards shortly thereafter. Lol


Confirming, I step geese.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#150 - 2012-06-06 22:27:27 UTC
I am also ~literally~ a child. I'm posting this from mommy's smartphone outside of the JCPenny while she tries on dresses. After this we are going to go get some ice cream and then go home where daddy is going to "Get sauced" and hit me with his belt while screaming he wished I was a boy.

I am a boy :(
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#151 - 2012-06-06 22:35:16 UTC
Horus Ernaga wrote:
The real question is why are these players specifically targeting those that do with wish to be targeted.
Because they're valid targets and because wishing not to be targeted isn't reason enough not to target them — they have to actually avoid making themselves targets if they want to achieve that goal.

Also, since many of them did what you did and followed bad advice, it's a good idea to do so for a number of reasons (and you also illustrate why, in spite of the adamant insistence to the contrary from the victim camp, there are some very real risks to it all).
Velicitia
XS Tech
#152 - 2012-06-06 22:45:22 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Horus Ernaga wrote:
The real question is why are these players specifically targeting those that do with wish to be targeted.
Because they're valid targets and because wishing not to be targeted isn't reason enough not to target them — they have to actually avoid making themselves targets if they want to achieve that goal.

Also, since many of them did what you did and followed bad advice, it's a good idea to do so for a number of reasons (and you also illustrate why, in spite of the adamant insistence to the contrary from the victim camp, there are some very real risks to it all).



Actually Tippia, I think he's talking about the tank in Halada's guide. It's not that bad ... BUT it's only good in the place it was designed to be used, and for the purpose it was designed for (i.e. tanking nullsec rat DPS).


Far as ganking miners goes ... I do it so I can have the rocks to myself. Bear

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#153 - 2012-06-06 22:57:37 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Actually Tippia, I think he's talking about the tank in Halada's guide. It's not that bad ... BUT it's only good in the place it was designed to be used, and for the purpose it was designed for (i.e. tanking nullsec rat DPS).
I know what he was talking about, and I still consider it bad advice for pretty much that reason: it just presents a tank, and while the guide mentions what it's supposed to protect against, it completely fails to mention the alternatives and why you might want to choose them instead. For the new player, there is no way of spotting that omission.

It's like selling a Mac Pro to a complete computer illiterate person because it's what everyone in video production uses, and not mentioning that, no, it won't come with Solitaire or MS Paint or “that blue ‘e’ that means ‘the internets’”, or that a grey box with two fewer zeros at the end of the price tag will probably do what the user wants far better…
Horus Ernaga
Doomheim
#154 - 2012-06-06 22:57:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Horus Ernaga
Being new I had no idea it was bad advice. At the time no one said fit extenders. It was all "Stay aligned" "Don't AFK' "Warp when someone enter the belt". Which leaves you warping in and out constantly in a lot of places. I had yet to see a solid way of not making yourself a target other than just not logging on or not being a miner period. Fight back you say? Sure take your low combat skills or non existent combat skills and knowledge and go fight the enemy. Wait what, that didn't work out well? OK put yourself offline for awhile and get some more combat SP? Come on really? If your in the game to take part of the industrial/market PVP why are you forced to take the combat route? Option 3: Hire someone? Sure I'll take you ISK and crush these guys... Wow their all docked from the war dec, sorry dude. No you dont get a refund, or in some cases... thanks for the isk.. this is boring we are going back over here now...Option 4: Get some permanent guards for you high sec mini..... What the hell am I saying? I for one am not going to sit in a belt for two hours while Joe Dirt mines... at least Joe is doing something more than staring at his overview even part of the time.

Now I know extenders will lower how appealing of a target you are, that's just until someone figures out how to overcome it. I'm sure.
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#155 - 2012-06-06 23:08:04 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
I am also ~literally~ a child. I'm posting this from mommy's smartphone outside of the JCPenny while she tries on dresses. After this we are going to go get some ice cream and then go home where daddy is going to "Get sauced" and hit me with his belt while screaming he wished I was a boy.

I am a boy :(


maybe the best gd post ever
Horus Ernaga
Doomheim
#156 - 2012-06-06 23:17:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Horus Ernaga
Velicitia wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Horus Ernaga wrote:
The real question is why are these players specifically targeting those that do with wish to be targeted.
Because they're valid targets and because wishing not to be targeted isn't reason enough not to target them — they have to actually avoid making themselves targets if they want to achieve that goal.

Also, since many of them did what you did and followed bad advice, it's a good idea to do so for a number of reasons (and you also illustrate why, in spite of the adamant insistence to the contrary from the victim camp, there are some very real risks to it all).



Actually Tippia, I think he's talking about the tank in Halada's guide. It's not that bad ... BUT it's only good in the place it was designed to be used, and for the purpose it was designed for (i.e. tanking nullsec rat DPS).


Far as ganking miners goes ... I do it so I can have the rocks to myself. Bear


Like taking the rocks just to sell or actually refining them to use in production? The former I won't comment on, the ladder however I can live with.

Don't get me wrong I understand as long as you are logged in your in a lot of ways a target regardless of profession. My point is they have little interest in our side of PVP but have little in the way of actually preventing it.

Not saying miners need a buff or gankers need a nerf either. I think once this new War History system gets rolling it could maybe make a difference. Being able to hire legit mercs and all.
Shaampoo
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#157 - 2012-06-06 23:19:41 UTC
Knus'lar wrote:
I see this quite a bit in the rage threads lately. From my perspective, i see a lot of carebears mud flinging, and calling anyone who ganks or does pvp a sociopath. Because apparently only a sociopath would do such a thing. But really, it just seems like a vain attempt at taking the moral high ground.

For real, do some people honestly believe people act the same in game as they do in real life?

I am not bothered because i cant fell empathy and i am psychopathic
Widow Cain
#158 - 2012-06-06 23:28:55 UTC
Degren wrote:
Ten Bulls wrote:
Hmm, so your sayin its the solo miners that are mining the minerals that almost every item in eve is constructed from are the ones that are unable to relate to EVE society.
That the players that shoot those defenseless mining ships are actually helping EVE as a group by making those naughty miners stop with their selfish activities...

I cant possibly think think of any flaws in that argument, no sir no flaws in that logic, we just get rid of the selfish primary producers and the rest of society will be just fine. Or your making excuses to justify your previous beliefs, one or the other.


The thing you are forgetting is that they do it for money. Not for the community. Dear god your post was painful to read.


I bomb people for the community, unlike those greedy miners.

OMG You are sooo pixel macho...
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#159 - 2012-06-06 23:42:11 UTC
Knus'lar wrote:
I see this quite a bit in the rage threads lately. From my perspective, i see a lot of carebears mud flinging, and calling anyone who ganks or does pvp a sociopath. Because apparently only a sociopath would do such a thing. But really, it just seems like a vain attempt at taking the moral high ground.

For real, do some people honestly believe people act the same in game as they do in real life?



It's quite well known that people act in games, they way they would like to act in RL, but can't due to pesky laws and such. Oops

That being said, my guess would be the people they are calling sociopath would be the ones who prefer PvG. Ganking someone who can't fight back.
Nothing wrong with ganking imho, although current mechanics appear to be broken with respect to balance.

However someone who lives for the tears, probably has other issues....Lol




Signature removed - CCP Eterne
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#160 - 2012-06-06 23:43:49 UTC
Knus'lar wrote:
I see this quite a bit in the rage threads lately. From my perspective, i see a lot of carebears mud flinging, and calling anyone who ganks or does pvp a sociopath. Because apparently only a sociopath would do such a thing. But really, it just seems like a vain attempt at taking the moral high ground.


No, because those people clearly don't know the definition of one.

Knus'lar wrote:
For real, do some people honestly believe people act the same in game as they do in real life?


Yes.

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