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Does the 'PvPers are Sociopaths' argument bother anyone else?

Author
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#101 - 2012-06-06 15:05:43 UTC
Lustralis wrote:
If another player wants to be left alone to engage in whatever activity in Sandbox Eve, where ganking his ass is one possible choice of many and by no means compulsory, who are you to say he's "playing it wrong"?
He's the right one to say so, because chances are that they are. Specifically, chances are that they are playing it wrong by assuming that “sandbox” means that they will be allowed to succeed at whatever they attempt and that anything that interrupts their road to greatness is the result of some kind of bug or game-breaking exploit.

It's not the activity that is “playing it wrong” — it's the assumptions and entitlement behind it, because those are, objectively, wrong. These incorrect assumptions will get the player killed. It's like assuming that, when you're playing minecraft, that bush-textured penismonster is nothing to be concerned with because, hey, it's a sandbox. This assumption is wrong, and playing the game without concerning yourself with means to protect you pretty house from creepers is to play the game wrong (well, unless you're playing EVE and minecraft as suicide or rebuild-for-the-fortyeleventh-time-simulators, but then you get the exact outcome you wanted so no-one will complain anyway).

If they made the right assumptions instead, they'd probably not get killed (or at least be far safer and present a much more tricky target). They can engage in the exact same activity without the same, wrong, assumptions and without the false sense of entitlement and as a direct result be far more successful and prosperous for it.
ArmyOfMe
Teddybears.
Dead Terrorists
#102 - 2012-06-06 15:06:22 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Reactions I've gotten from other pvpers/gankers/"griefers" after killing/getting killed by them:

- no reaction
- "gf"
- "better watch your back lol"
- emoticons
- compliments
- smacktalk with or without light cussing
- promises of petitions due to alleged desyncs/disconnects
- rarely, genuine dislike for me as a player, but limited to the scope of the game

Reactions I've gotten from carebears after killing them:

- to a small/moderate degree, all of the above, but more often than not, mostly from the following list:

- extreme cussing
- promises of petitions due to my apparent use of hacks and exploits
- accusations of real-life terrorism
- threats of lawsuit/police action
- real-life threats to harm me (mostly done by people who also claimed to be in the armed forces or in possession of weapons)
- real-life threats to sexually-assault me
- real-life threats to harm my wife/significant other (I am unmarried)
- real-life threats to harm my children (I have no kids)
- real-life threats to sexually-assault my wife/significant other
- real-life threats to sexually-assault my children

(I really wish I didn't have to put that last one on there, but I don't want to sugar-coat the issue either; not only has it happened, it's happened more than once.)
I think the only ever times i get somewhat annoyed at getting killed are the times when im in a fair fight (1vs1 etc) and they warp in 10x more guys, and then says gf in local, cause to me thats not what id call a good fight anymore.
But i guess im just a bitter old vet remembering the days when solo roaming in battleships etc was possible (and no, for those of you that think so, solo roaming does not mean you + your alt in a logi or falcon)

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.

ArmyOfMe
Teddybears.
Dead Terrorists
#103 - 2012-06-06 15:12:49 UTC
Oh, and to the OP. Nope, doesnt bother me one bit tbh (not that i have done a lot of suicide ganking in high sec, but it has happend a few times)
I take no offence to ppl in this game calling me whatever they want tbh, since i know this is a game in wich i can do whatever i want (within the rulesBlink ) and i find it quite amusing to see how some ppl can react to being killed.
I probably would have worried a bit more if i was a antisocial **** in rl. (but i would probably have been fired quite quickly then, since i work as a registerd nurse, while getting a masterdegree in intensive care)

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.

Horus Ernaga
Doomheim
#104 - 2012-06-06 15:14:53 UTC
Alexandra Delarge wrote:
Sarina Berghil wrote:
There is a distinction between friendly mocking/rivalry and the intent to cause emotional grief.

Please give an example of what you consider to be smacktalk/mocking/rivalry and what you consider to be a statement designed to cause 'emotional grief'.


General Smacktalk: "Wow that was horrible" "You should know better than to mess with me" "Lols that was easy"

Irritating but in the boundary of Ok

Bad Smacktalk: "UMADBRO? You gonna cry now?" "LOL you fail so hard, biomass yourself immediately, IRL" "You suck so bad why do you bother playing?"

Going a bit to far here.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#105 - 2012-06-06 15:27:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Khergit Deserters wrote:
People who get pleasure from causing other people misery are sociopaths. That's different than just wanting to PVP, defeart another player, or pad your killboard. There are some people in this game who do really get off on dominating and humiliating somebody else. Call it "collecting tears" or whatever you want. That's being a sociopath, not a game competitor.


People that allow their losses in a video game to cause them misery in their real life are the individuals that have issues.

Many people that frequently engage in "ganking" are attempting to ferret out these people and show them how truly meanless the loss of space pixels (that in no way actually belong to them in the first place) actually is.

If being bested in a video game causes you actual misery, seek help.

Someone posted a clinical list of the signs of actual sociopathy. That's all well and good when you are observing their actions in reality, however it falls down when you attempt to apply those rules to most any sort of game or sport.

Games and sports have their own intergal rule set that frequently has little to do with the behavioral rules we are expected to follow in our daily interactions.

In sports you are allowed to take actions that would get you arrested for assault in reality, in poker you are encouraged to decieve your opponents into losing large sums of money to you, in many video games you succeed by killing the enemy and/or destroying their infrastructure... which is exactly what we have in EVE.

Applying your definitions across the broad spectrum of various sports or games would lead you to believe that most professional athletes (and the people that enjoy watching them) and virtually all people that play video games are suffering one form of mental illness or another, often overtly exhibiting criminal behavior.

Obviously this is untrue, and your definitions of sociopathic behavior do not apply in these circumstances.

Not being able to make this distinction between appropriate behavior in a game/sports environment and appropriate behavior in your daily interations, to be unable to separate fantasy from reality, and the inability to cope with losing or suffering imaginary setbacks in a competitive game/sport IS an issue.

If you want to be concerned about someones mental state, that is where your focus should be.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Nostradamouse Riraille
S.M.U.G.G.L.E.
#106 - 2012-06-06 15:33:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Nostradamouse Riraille
Well, I recently found that ganking people in Low Sec tend to drive the local population away from said system, basically giving me and my corporation free access and exclusivity to said system to run sites, mine stuff and everything.

This is why I gank unarmed people. Prevent people from invading your space.

I guess that makes me a goal oriented killer. Making me a sociopath.


Of course...

ya Rly!
Svarek
#107 - 2012-06-06 15:38:10 UTC
Nostradamouse Riraille wrote:
Well, I recently found that ganking people in Low Sec tend to drive the local population away from said system, basically giving me and my corporation free access and exclusivity to said system to run sites, mine stuff and everything.

This is why I gank unarmed people. Prevent people from invading your space.

I guess that makes me a goal oriented killer. Making me a sociopath.


Of course...

ya Rly!


You're a horrible evil person and a blight on this community. D:<

Whoops.

March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2012-06-06 15:42:31 UTC
Knus'lar wrote:
For real, do some people honestly believe people act the same in game as they do in real life?

i think there is other question: what makes person play "the worst" person in game than he is in RL?

I can understand "white knights": in RL you see so many bad things you can't change. You see bad people you can't fight with and they win. But in game you have this option so you can hide from reality and be "the stronger" in game. As i do usually in all games i play. In RL i would evade conflict but in game i have option and power to fight. So i will. But i never wanted to hurt even NPC (not in Eve tho where NPC is obvious and standard source of ISK). What for? I always can win going other way.

Other side is a "dark side". Only reason i can find is: game doesn't give you consequences for your business. Well it gives but not as in RL. Other reasons to be "bad boy" in game? I dunno really.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#109 - 2012-06-06 15:48:16 UTC
The most dangerously raging, vicious, hateful, and unprincipled people I've ever met in this game are also to be found among its biggest carebears.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.

FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#110 - 2012-06-06 15:50:41 UTC  |  Edited by: FloppieTheBanjoClown
Video game logic: If I'm better than you, you're a noob. If you're better than me, you have no life. If you did something I don't like, there's obviously something seriously wrong with your brain.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.

Nostradamouse Riraille
S.M.U.G.G.L.E.
#111 - 2012-06-06 15:53:27 UTC
Svarek wrote:
Nostradamouse Riraille wrote:
Well, I recently found that ganking people in Low Sec tend to drive the local population away from said system, basically giving me and my corporation free access and exclusivity to said system to run sites, mine stuff and everything.

This is why I gank unarmed people. Prevent people from invading your space.

I guess that makes me a goal oriented killer. Making me a sociopath.


Of course...

ya Rly!


You're a horrible evil person and a blight on this community. D:<


I know right... I'm a vicious and territorial newbie carebear.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2012-06-06 15:53:48 UTC
Degren wrote:

This might be accurate if there were real world consequences for blowing up someone's ship.

so you are saying: some people (i'm looking at you, Eve Online "pvpers") have no internal limiter so they need external consequences to control their behavior?

Sounds to me as perfect example of "sociopath".

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#113 - 2012-06-06 15:57:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
in real life i am a suicide bomber for the PLO and get a payout from Hamas each time i do a suicide gank, what i do in eve greatly influenced this career choice so i guess the 'sociopath' label fits
Nostradamouse Riraille
S.M.U.G.G.L.E.
#114 - 2012-06-06 15:59:44 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Degren wrote:

This might be accurate if there were real world consequences for blowing up someone's ship.

so you are saying: some people (i'm looking at you, Eve Online "pvpers") have no internal limiter so they need external consequences to control their behavior?

Sounds to me as perfect example of "sociopath".


Oh, most pvpers do have rules : Like : some won't shoot people under a month old unless at war or engaged first by said newbie. Some won't shoot the regulars in system that helped them before. It's pretty rare that people burn bridges intentionnaly.

However, for random strangers, the hunt is on.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#115 - 2012-06-06 16:05:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
March rabbit wrote:
Knus'lar wrote:
For real, do some people honestly believe people act the same in game as they do in real life?

i think there is other question: what makes person play "the worst" person in game than he is in RL?

I can understand "white knights": in RL you see so many bad things you can't change. You see bad people you can't fight with and they win. But in game you have this option so you can hide from reality and be "the stronger" in game. As i do usually in all games i play. In RL i would evade conflict but in game i have option and power to fight. So i will. But i never wanted to hurt even NPC (not in Eve tho where NPC is obvious and standard source of ISK). What for? I always can win going other way.

Other side is a "dark side". Only reason i can find is: game doesn't give you consequences for your business. Well it gives but not as in RL. Other reasons to be "bad boy" in game? I dunno really.


For many, it is the enjoyment of giving the "White Knights" a worthy adversary. People that have run role playing games of all sorts over the last few decades will freely tell you they spend the bulk of their time portraying bad guys for the enjoyment of others (and indirectly for themselves).

For others, it is the simple fact that "Bad Boys" have a certain undeniable cool factor.

Who wasn't a fan of Darth Vader as opposed to the whiney Luke Skywalker, or didn't angrily proclaimed "Han Solo shot first"?
Who didn't think Hanibal Lector was a facinating and brilliant psychopath?
Who can deny that Heath Ledgers portrayal of the Joker struck a chord, or for that matter didn't secretly identify in some way with the violent vigilante known as The Batman?

There is nothing wrong, ethically or psychologically, with portraying a bad guy in a fictional setting.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Horus Ernaga
Doomheim
#116 - 2012-06-06 16:06:56 UTC
MMOs, card games, and real life sports can not be compared directly. Like comparing apples to car engines. MMOs are much more complex and dynamic. RL games the winning and losing conditions and rules are set. In a MMO such as EVE there are none, beyond no hacking and don't be a bigot.

It's selfish as well to tell others well this is what the game is and that's that. go play WOW if you don't like it. WOW and the majority of other MMOs are fantasy, not many are SCI FI even less are space. It's pretty much this or Star Trek or nothing.

Ranger, it really depends on the degree of loss. Losing a hulk or two every week or two when your trying to accomplish something in game will get frustrating no what who it is. Even you would become frustrated if you lost more ships that your in game income allowed for to the point were you are regressing from your current holdings. In every game when the top guilds/alliances/corporations lose major assets to the point where it's almost unrecoverable you see a lot of anger.

For me if I lost a ship in PVP its like "shucks" lose my pod its "damn", then lose my mission ship to a ganker while trying to recover some loses "SOB", then my pod again,"#$#$^". With enough ISK padding it escalates less but its still there. How many times can you mine out roughly the same amount if isk and killed before you get even a little angry? If you say infinite, can you walk on water too?
Alia Gon'die
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#117 - 2012-06-06 16:10:02 UTC
ITT Armchair psychologists hand out emotional disorders like a 1980's Psychiatrist handing out Ritalin.

Self-appointed forums hallway monitor Ask me about La Maison and what it means for you! http://bit.ly/LTW5gW These wardec rules are not in place for our protection. They're in place for yours.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#118 - 2012-06-06 16:12:23 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
so you are saying: some people (i'm looking at you, Eve Online "pvpers") have no internal limiter so they need external consequences to control their behavior?

Sounds to me as perfect example of "sociopath".
No. Someone with ASDP would not recognise those external controls or be limited by them.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#119 - 2012-06-06 16:22:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Horus Ernaga wrote:
MMOs, card games, and real life sports can not be compared directly. Like comparing apples to car engines. MMOs are much more complex and dynamic. RL games the winning and losing conditions and rules are set. In a MMO such as EVE there are none, beyond no hacking and don't be a bigot.

It's selfish as well to tell others well this is what the game is and that's that. go play WOW if you don't like it. WOW and the majority of other MMOs are fantasy, not many are SCI FI even less are space. It's pretty much this or Star Trek or nothing.

Ranger, it really depends on the degree of loss. Losing a hulk or two every week or two when your trying to accomplish something in game will get frustrating no what who it is. Even you would become frustrated if you lost more ships that your in game income allowed for to the point were you are regressing from your current holdings. In every game when the top guilds/alliances/corporations lose major assets to the point where it's almost unrecoverable you see a lot of anger.

For me if I lost a ship in PVP its like "shucks" lose my pod its "damn", then lose my mission ship to a ganker while trying to recover some loses "SOB", then my pod again,"#$#$^". With enough ISK padding it escalates less but its still there. How many times can you mine out roughly the same amount if isk and killed before you get even a little angry? If you say infinite, can you walk on water too?


MMO's, card games, and real life sports DO have one thing in common. They all have their own unique rules sets... rule sets that have little if anything to do with the rules we follow in our daily real life.

Suicide gankers are not breaking any of the rules of EVE, in fact the rules have been very carefully written and tweaked over the years to specifically allow it to happen.

While some would (understandably) think that I can walk on water, in fact I cannot. However I do not let the acquisition or loss of imaginary assets upset me in the slightest. My usual reaction to a loss is a simple "Well done"... exactly as it would be if I found myself in check mate, lost a hand at poker, or if I failed to outscore an opponent in a fencing match (it's been awhile).

I will say again, if you feel more than a momentary reaction of "Doh!" when you lose (or lose something) in a game or sport... if you feel uncontrollable rage or misery when this happens, you need to take a large step back from the activity.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#120 - 2012-06-06 16:24:53 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Knus'lar wrote:
For real, do some people honestly believe people act the same in game as they do in real life?

i think there is other question: what makes person play "the worst" person in game than he is in RL?

I can understand "white knights": in RL you see so many bad things you can't change. You see bad people you can't fight with and they win. But in game you have this option so you can hide from reality and be "the stronger" in game. As i do usually in all games i play. In RL i would evade conflict but in game i have option and power to fight. So i will. But i never wanted to hurt even NPC (not in Eve tho where NPC is obvious and standard source of ISK). What for? I always can win going other way.

Other side is a "dark side". Only reason i can find is: game doesn't give you consequences for your business. Well it gives but not as in RL. Other reasons to be "bad boy" in game? I dunno really.


For many, it is the enjoyment of giving the "White Knights" a worthy adversary. People that have run role playing games of all sorts over the last few decades will freely tell you they spend the bulk of their time portraying bad guys for the enjoyment of others (and indirectly for themselves).

For others, it is the simple fact that "Bad Boys" have a certain undeniable cool factor.

Who wasn't a fan of Darth Vader as opposed to the whiney Luke Skywalker, or didn't angrily proclaimed "Han Solo shot first"?
Who didn't think Hanibal Lector was a facinating and brilliant psychopath?
Who can deny that Heath Ledgers portrayal of the Joker struck a chord, or for that matter didn't secretly identify in some way with the violent vigilante known as The Batman?

There is nothing wrong, ethically or psychologically, with portraying a bad guy in a fictional setting.


Actually I didn't like Darth Vader, more of a fan of Qui-Gon Jinn, Hanibal Lector was a sick fu@%, I preferred Jack Nicholsons Joker and Batman may have worn black but he was a white Knight.