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New dev blog: Next Unified Inventory Update

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Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#161 - 2012-06-05 17:44:57 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
DazedOne wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Glarbl Blarbl wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Guys, the team isn't stopping working on fixes and improvements, they are changing their release cadence. Next release in 2 days, then another one 12 days after that. The 12 days (7 days development time) isn't going to spent doing no work! Please, I understand that you are angry, upset, etc. Your vitriolic hate is doing you no good - we don't listen harder because you call us worse names. To those who are still keeping it constructive, thanks, and we are working!



Thanks for this, Goliath, it wasn't clear to a lot of us that development would continue on the UI.

I think the problem a lot of us have is that this seems like a pattern now, releasing features that many of the playerbase don't seem to want in a half-working state. I started playing Eve about a month before Incarna was released and I'm having some powerful flashbacks now.

Would it be possible for you to write a devblog detailing how CCP decides when a new feature is TQ-ready? I for one would greatly appreciate an inside view of the decision making process. I've considered logging into SISI to check out upcoming features and provide my input -- but as it seems that any feedback given about SISI is ignored, what incentive do I have to do so?

Keep in mind that since we pay to play this game we feel like we have a certain amount of ownership here. It's really frustrating to be in the position of shelling out dollars when you don't know if you're going to enjoy the experience you're paying for.


I'll talk to some people about getting a/some devblog(s) written about our development processes and go into what you asked for. Don't fall into this trap of thinking that Sisi feedback is ignored though - plenty of feedback received on Sisi results in changes being made and plenty is taken on board but not implemented, for good and for bad. Look at the recent Incursion rebalancing and the continual input Affinity and team Five-0 had from seasoned incursion runners - they made a number of iterations based on that feedback.



The key difference here is if the incursion runners didn't like the feature they don't have to use it. For instance the incursion runners were not happy and as a result decided to do other things in eve. Now with the UI everyone has to deal with it in some frame or fashion and just waiting for our input to be added to salvage this mess is getting annoying. Right click options, double click options. Getting rid of shift clicks, more windows etc. You've read it all.

Your comparison is like comparing apples to ornages.


It wasn't a comparison though, it was an example to illustrate my point about player feedback. At no point did I compare Unified Inventory and Incursions.

When is the next set of incursion changes comeing out?

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.
Senarian Tyme
Serenity Rising LLC
Controlled Chaos
#162 - 2012-06-05 17:58:44 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Guys, the team isn't stopping working on fixes and improvements, they are changing their release cadence. Next release in 2 days, then another one 12 days after that. The 12 days (7 days development time) isn't going to spent doing no work! Please, I understand that you are angry, upset, etc. Your vitriolic hate is doing you no good - we don't listen harder because you call us worse names. To those who are still keeping it constructive, thanks, and we are working!


We aren't asking for heads on a spike here (yet), we want stuff working at least as well as before "winferno" went live. If customers demanding a quality product is "vitriolic hate" to you then you are in the wrong business.

If you wish to avoid such reactions you should really think before you and release beta products onto your production server.

Your current implementation still does not meet standards. The fact your teams have been working so hard after release shows just how much additional work is still needed to make it a half way presentable product. If you really want people to stop being so upset, you are going to need to make amends. Simply fixing the system to the point it SHOULD have been at on the day it went live, is not doing this, its least amount of effort. Offering discount resubscriptions is likely to earn some partial good will. But why are we paying at all to do your beta work? I can say you wont be getting another dime out of me (or the vast majority of my corp either) until this is brought back up to a satisfactory level of interaction and performance.
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#163 - 2012-06-05 18:05:15 UTC
Senarian Tyme wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Guys, the team isn't stopping working on fixes and improvements, they are changing their release cadence. Next release in 2 days, then another one 12 days after that. The 12 days (7 days development time) isn't going to spent doing no work! Please, I understand that you are angry, upset, etc. Your vitriolic hate is doing you no good - we don't listen harder because you call us worse names. To those who are still keeping it constructive, thanks, and we are working!


We aren't asking for heads on a spike here (yet), we want stuff working at least as well as before "winferno" went live. If customers demanding a quality product is "vitriolic hate" to you then you are in the wrong business.

If you wish to avoid such reactions you should really think before you and release beta products onto your production server.

Your current implementation still does not meet standards. The fact your teams have been working so hard after release shows just how much additional work is still needed to make it a half way presentable product. If you really want people to stop being so upset, you are going to need to make amends. Simply fixing the system to the point it SHOULD have been at on the day it went live, is not doing this, its least amount of effort. Offering discount resubscriptions is likely to earn some partial good will. But why are we paying at all to do your beta work? I can say you wont be getting another dime out of me (or the vast majority of my corp either) until this is brought back up to a satisfactory level of interaction and performance.



I wish you were speaking for everyone but a fair section of the reponses, even just in this thread, have gone beyond the boundaries of respectability. Customers demanding a quality product is fine, customers demanding hard working peoples' jobs, or calling their personal integrity, skill and commitment into question, isn't in my book. As to the current implementation, that has been addressed numerous times throughout this thread and in the dev blog that the thread comes from so I won't repeat myself and others further.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#164 - 2012-06-05 18:07:49 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
It wasn't a comparison though, it was an example to illustrate my point about player feedback. At no point did I compare Unified Inventory and Incursions.


Players are assholes. Good work on the inventory! When it was released, I was not overexcited about it, but I hardened the f*ck up, and used it, and it was fine. Now you have improved it, and that's awesome. You are developing an awesome game. Keep being awesome. To the haters, harden the f*ck up

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
E6o5
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#165 - 2012-06-05 18:08:47 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Guys, the team isn't stopping working on fixes and improvements, they are changing their release cadence. Next release in 2 days, then another one 12 days after that. The 12 days (7 days development time) isn't going to spent doing no work! Please, I understand that you are angry, upset, etc. Your vitriolic hate is doing you no good - we don't listen harder because you call us worse names. To those who are still keeping it constructive, thanks, and we are working!


Give me one use case for you:
- In my home system I have a fairly high amount of items and ships.
- To organize my items I use named station containers/warehouses/secure containers with names to indicate their purpose, like: ammo, modules, drones, minerals, pos modules, implants, faction stuff, blueprints and so on.
-> this keeps the hangar itself very clearly arranged
-> this prevents me from trashing all the items accidentially

- it you to work thatdouble clicking a container opened it in a new window and this was good as a new window allowed me to drag items from my ship into that container (i could see source and destination and the drop targett was fairly big)
-> i want some option in a the settings that allows me to configure the click behavior of buttons in case you want to stick to the shift+click crap
- when i drag item into the container i want them to be unlocked if i have the container configured that way
-> doesn't work at the moment, wtf
- windows for containers i opened should still be open when i dock and redock
-> doesn't work at the moment, wtf

This is just one use case that is currently broken in so many ways, and you dare to complain that we complain...

Btw. as a SCRUM team you are responsible for the quality. How many automatic tests of any kind have you created when implementing this feature and how many already did exist beforehand?
Geksz
The Fountain
#166 - 2012-06-05 18:10:21 UTC
CAN WE PLEASE GET THE SIDEBAR(tree view) TO THE TOP OF THE UI?

It simply takes too much space on the left.

Also pls. redo the tabbed corp hangar window, it was working just fine! Or atleast give an option, or remember the windows in tabbed from pls!

Also, if i want to open something in space, with a cargohold window already open, pls don't open the new window at that same cargo window!

There are a lot more stuff that needs to be tweaked to get this "crap" to the same level as the old one was.
Pls Hurry it up CCP!
Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#167 - 2012-06-05 18:14:10 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
I wish you were speaking for everyone but a fair section of the reponses, even just in this thread, have gone beyond the boundaries of respectability.

Being respectable doesn't solve the problem. Again, you're mixing issues. The tone around here will settle when the problem is solved, probably not before.

That's not fair, and that's not just, but that is how it is. It's like a baby born without legs. It just is. Trying to judge it is pointless. People are anonymous on the internet and they get very arrogant and insulting. This has been going on for about 17 or 18 years, so this sociopathy (particularly in a game community which is driven largely by sociopathic behavior) is going to manifest itself.

I'm not justifying it. I also don't try to justify the movement of the sun, or the effects of gravity.

CCP Goliath wrote:
Customers demanding a quality product is fine, customers demanding hard working peoples' jobs, or calling their personal integrity, skill and commitment into question, isn't in my book.

You're probably right. But again, it's irrelevant, because unless you guys are going to fire your customers or hypermoderate the forum, the best way to put this to bed is to resolve the issues.

The one thing you (and it feels like, some of the other staff @ CCP) keep missing, is that issues come from mistakes on your end, that compromise the playstyle of a lot of players. And people don't just play this game, because it is not a casual game. People invest thousands of hours of their lives, and years of their lives playing it. When someone blows up your ship, it hurts. It is a consequence. When you get scammed, you feel ripped off. You're poorer.

Those same dynamics come into play when you guys monkey with the user experience. You're compromising what people have a substantial investment in.

Again, doesn't justify the behavior. But if you don't understand why it happens, and how you guys have continued to perpetuate it (people wanted a rollback, were ignored) then you will continue to experience it now and in the future.

I don't hate any of you guys. It frustrates me to no end that people who are obviously so bright, won't do the right thing.

Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#168 - 2012-06-05 18:14:15 UTC
E6o5 wrote:

- when i drag item into the container i want them to be unlocked if i have the container configured that way
-> doesn't work at the moment, wtf
- windows for containers i opened should still be open when i dock and redock
-> doesn't work at the moment, wtf

This is just one use case that is currently broken in so many ways, and you dare to complain that we complain...

Btw. as a SCRUM team you are responsible for the quality. How many automatic tests of any kind have you created when implementing this feature and how many already did exist beforehand?



Both the issues you have listed are defects, they are known to the team and they will be fixed.

I don't have an issue with complaints, I have an issue with the manner of complaining.

I can't really answer your last question as it doesn't make much sense. Do you think that I am on team Game of Drones? I'm not on any team (see signature). When you ask about automated tests, how much do you know about our codebase and development practises so far? What question are you really trying to ask?

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
Maul555
Xen Investments
#169 - 2012-06-05 18:19:03 UTC
Thank you CCP Goliath and Soundwave. I know it cant be easy dealing with us disgruntled gamers. I also know things cant be rolled back, just like our spinny ship hangers couldn't be rolled back in the Incarna expansion. I am however hopeful that you guys are working to make the new UI as much like our old one as possible, just like CCP did with our ship spinny hangers after Incarna.


What would really help things is a new list of coming fixes, and things you are looking into adding to the list of coming fixes. This way we could help refine that list, throw some things out, add some things in, and calm everyone down in general.
Josef Djugashvilis
#170 - 2012-06-05 18:22:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Josef Djugashvilis
All this bad feeling on both sides could have been avoided if the issues identified by Tippia and others had been fixed before release.

This is not a signature.
Senarian Tyme
Serenity Rising LLC
Controlled Chaos
#171 - 2012-06-05 18:24:46 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Senarian Tyme wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Guys, the team isn't stopping working on fixes and improvements, they are changing their release cadence. Next release in 2 days, then another one 12 days after that. The 12 days (7 days development time) isn't going to spent doing no work! Please, I understand that you are angry, upset, etc. Your vitriolic hate is doing you no good - we don't listen harder because you call us worse names. To those who are still keeping it constructive, thanks, and we are working!


We aren't asking for heads on a spike here (yet), we want stuff working at least as well as before "winferno" went live. If customers demanding a quality product is "vitriolic hate" to you then you are in the wrong business.

If you wish to avoid such reactions you should really think before you and release beta products onto your production server.

Your current implementation still does not meet standards. The fact your teams have been working so hard after release shows just how much additional work is still needed to make it a half way presentable product. If you really want people to stop being so upset, you are going to need to make amends. Simply fixing the system to the point it SHOULD have been at on the day it went live, is not doing this, its least amount of effort. Offering discount resubscriptions is likely to earn some partial good will. But why are we paying at all to do your beta work? I can say you wont be getting another dime out of me (or the vast majority of my corp either) until this is brought back up to a satisfactory level of interaction and performance.



I wish you were speaking for everyone but a fair section of the reponses, even just in this thread, have gone beyond the boundaries of respectability. Customers demanding a quality product is fine, customers demanding hard working peoples' jobs, or calling their personal integrity, skill and commitment into question, isn't in my book. As to the current implementation, that has been addressed numerous times throughout this thread and in the dev blog that the thread comes from so I won't repeat myself and others further.


Well seeing as CCP essentially refused to even acknowledge the outrage here on the forums for the first stretch after the initial release while you were very responsive to discussions and questions regarding other issues, you missed the chance to catch this in the bud, and some initial later responses were rather flippant which only fueled the fire. Combine that with how CCP has spent years fostering a community both in and around the game that is less than cordial 99% of the time....... well you reap what you sow. I have 0 sympathy for CCP at this point beyond the poor the GMs who really got caught in the cross fire on this one. (Salute to GM Tiny btw)
E6o5
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#172 - 2012-06-05 18:24:51 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
E6o5 wrote:

- when i drag item into the container i want them to be unlocked if i have the container configured that way
-> doesn't work at the moment, wtf
- windows for containers i opened should still be open when i dock and redock
-> doesn't work at the moment, wtf

This is just one use case that is currently broken in so many ways, and you dare to complain that we complain...

Btw. as a SCRUM team you are responsible for the quality. How many automatic tests of any kind have you created when implementing this feature and how many already did exist beforehand?



Both the issues you have listed are defects, they are known to the team and they will be fixed.

I don't have an issue with complaints, I have an issue with the manner of complaining.

I can't really answer your last question as it doesn't make much sense. Do you think that I am on team Game of Drones? I'm not on any team (see signature). When you ask about automated tests, how much do you know about our codebase and development practises so far? What question are you really trying to ask?


Are there automated code test developed or not?
Geksz
The Fountain
#173 - 2012-06-05 18:45:33 UTC
Maul555 wrote:
Opening orca bays before inferno:

*right click orca > open cargo hold
*right click orca > open ore hold
*right click orca > open corp hangers


Opening orca bays after inferno and fixes so far:

*Hit cargohold button at bottom of screen
*right click orca > shift+click open corporate hangers
*expand tree view > close filters > scroll > shift+click ore hold > collapse tree view
*and now remember to hit shift+click for EVERYTHING else.....
*also remember to manually close windows that you are about to warp away from to avoid getting another cargohold view that you will have to manually close anyways...

- - - - - - - - - -
Please return full original functionality... please


This
Jared Tobin
Bloodstone Industries
B.S.I.
#174 - 2012-06-05 18:52:17 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Well, no tabs. You do have to use the tree. Think of it as tabs that go down the side instead of across the top.


Yes........ [pausing]

No! Does it look like I have enough patience, time, and (most importantly) "screen real-estate" (room) to fully "use and view the tree"?

screenshot of my typical in-game, in-station screen

Seriously, man?

No, I do not want to use the tree... and I'm not even the guy you responded to, but your response really hit me with a realization that may not be clear to most "players":

Maybe it's easier for semi-typical (new)/casual users, but if you're a CORP CEO and an ALLIANCE EXECUTOR/FOUNDER, you have A LOT more options in the doubleplusungood tree.... and most of it is so far "pushed the right" that I can't see the entire tree without adjusting the separator... EVERY TIME I USE THE "THE TREE".

Also, ironicly, when you open the "CORP" window UI, they still use tabs. For me, technically, there are over 48 tab choices when you run a Corp AND an Alliance.
Nevigrofnu Mrots
Goonswarm Federation
#175 - 2012-06-05 18:57:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevigrofnu Mrots
CCP Goliath wrote:
Senarian Tyme wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Guys, the team isn't stopping working on fixes and improvements, they are changing their release cadence. Next release in 2 days, then another one 12 days after that. The 12 days (7 days development time) isn't going to spent doing no work! Please, I understand that you are angry, upset, etc. Your vitriolic hate is doing you no good - we don't listen harder because you call us worse names. To those who are still keeping it constructive, thanks, and we are working!


We aren't asking for heads on a spike here (yet), we want stuff working at least as well as before "winferno" went live. If customers demanding a quality product is "vitriolic hate" to you then you are in the wrong business.

If you wish to avoid such reactions you should really think before you and release beta products onto your production server.

Your current implementation still does not meet standards. The fact your teams have been working so hard after release shows just how much additional work is still needed to make it a half way presentable product. If you really want people to stop being so upset, you are going to need to make amends. Simply fixing the system to the point it SHOULD have been at on the day it went live, is not doing this, its least amount of effort. Offering discount resubscriptions is likely to earn some partial good will. But why are we paying at all to do your beta work? I can say you wont be getting another dime out of me (or the vast majority of my corp either) until this is brought back up to a satisfactory level of interaction and performance.



I wish you were speaking for everyone but a fair section of the reponses, even just in this thread, have gone beyond the boundaries of respectability. Customers demanding a quality product is fine, customers demanding hard working peoples' jobs, or calling their personal integrity, skill and commitment into question, isn't in my book. As to the current implementation, that has been addressed numerous times throughout this thread and in the dev blog that the thread comes from so I won't repeat myself and others further.


Hi, this comes from a developer who shares your pain and has to deal with costumers like this everyday also.

I've been following these threads, let me say this, you are giving too much talk to these folks, half are trollers the other half are hatters, don't give them wood for their fires. Make your informative posts, say what you have to say on them then stop until you have more information to give. Don't justify your actions, don't argue with these people, just ignore the hate posts, read the ones that are construtive and move on.

At one time I said CCP didn't come to the foruns, now I say you are speaking too much, you don't have to justify your actions/job to us, the clients, you only need to do that to your boss. Much less discuss and explain to us development details and justify why things are done internally, that is not discussable with a client. Give the clients the information they need to know. If, after that, they complain, don't say anything else. Complains are reported to the boss and its the boss who deals with them.

PS: and if you are the boss, then if I were you, I rest my case until I had more information to give out.
Geksz
The Fountain
#176 - 2012-06-05 19:02:37 UTC
Gaktern Flagg wrote:
So let me get this straight.

1. Put Unified Inventory on test server, get tons of negative feedback.
2. Put the exact same version of Unified Inventory on main server so the entire EVE community can beta test your feature.
3. Receive even more negative feedback.
4. Slowly release updates that fix a small amount of errors in Unified Inventory.
5. Tell the players that because it's hard for you to release updates for a broken feature, you will slow down.

Bravo CCP.


This
DJ P0N-3
Table Flippendeavors
#177 - 2012-06-05 19:06:18 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Glarbl Blarbl wrote:
Would it be possible for you to write a devblog detailing how CCP decides when a new feature is TQ-ready? I for one would greatly appreciate an inside view of the decision making process. I've considered logging into SISI to check out upcoming features and provide my input -- but as it seems that any feedback given about SISI is ignored, what incentive do I have to do so?


I'll talk to some people about getting a/some devblog(s) written about our development processes and go into what you asked for. Don't fall into this trap of thinking that Sisi feedback is ignored though - plenty of feedback received on Sisi results in changes being made and plenty is taken on board but not implemented, for good and for bad. Look at the recent Incursion rebalancing and the continual input Affinity and team Five-0 had from seasoned incursion runners - they made a number of iterations based on that feedback.


I too would like to see a devblog on that if it's possible.

Is there some way you could get a similar feedback stream up and running for the various use cases of the UI? For example, miners would know to submit their feedback in x thread or send to x person, salvagers would submit their feedback to x thread or send to x person, etc. I don't know if that would be easier or harder than forum wrangling in general, but would it be helpful if it was at least divided up so you knew that people with tons of items were mostly affected by performance, salvagers were most often affected by rogue windows, and so on and so forth?
Geksz
The Fountain
#178 - 2012-06-05 19:16:00 UTC
DazedOne wrote:
This is what I was waiting for. I knew without a shadow of a doubt CCP would eventually say screw it and continue back to another feature while leaving this one unfinished. CCP will never learn from their mistakes. A majority of the community are more than fine being beta testers for shoddy features. This is why CCP doesn't care. As long as people continue to pay why would they?

I for one firmly believe if I'm paying for a game I should not be testing their product, or hunting down bugs for them. I should be enjoying my time playing the game. Isn't that what a game is for after all?

Testing should only occur on SiSi. Thats what SiSi is supposed to be for. However, in order for SiSi testing to actually make a difference the Devs MUST listen to the testers. Tippia and several others gave them more than enough feedback on the issues with this new feature. The problem is the Devs are arrogant and do not listen to feedback from their testers. That was obvious when one of the Devs posted about not listening to their feedback.

The only time the Devs care about our thoughts is when they dump a shoddy product on us and we light the torches and flame them here on the forum. Once people unsub is when they care. That unfortunately is the only time they care. Less people are flaming them on the forums now, so this is why they are going back to the hum drum workings at their offices. It is a direct result of the complacency of the community.

All of you can see that CCP has not learned their lesson from incarna. Did you expect anything different? I cancelled all my subs and this one expires in a couple days. I am debating on whether or not to get an in game plex with isk to monitor this debacle for another month. One thing is certain, until this game is fixed I will not open my wallet and give them another penny.

The few of you calling people whiners on here need to take a step back and look at the situation. People are upset that an unfinished product was thrust upon us. We are paying them to test their product. Therefore, of course people are upset. This new UI is crippling those who do industry and manage massive amounts of assets (im not an industrialist), and it is a major blow to guys that salvage their missions. Looting is atrocious. Anything asset related lags with this new UI. This and the lack of the old functionality of the old UI is why people are upset.

It is even more disheartening when we are promised a patch to get this working properly every week until old functionality is restored. We got a couple patches and are now told to basically suck it up for a few more weeks because we want to work on other features. Makes me wonder how bad those features are going to be and whether or not CCP will actually listen to the guys that decide to test the features on SISI for them. After all CCP didn't listen to the testers on this new feature and all of us are paying the price for it.



This a thousend times!
Solhild
Doomheim
#179 - 2012-06-05 19:27:30 UTC
I'll go against the tone of a lot of posts here and say that I'm very happy with CCP's response on this. I actually like the direction the UI is heading.

I may even have to sub an extra account to train up another character Big smile
Tispar
Lonestar Distribution Inc.
#180 - 2012-06-05 19:32:39 UTC
Udonor wrote:
Tispar wrote:
Feature restoration request: On the Ships and Items hangar tab in station, there used to be the number of items present in each hangar listed between parenthesis, example "Ships (7)" or "Items (321)". This was also present on containers.
Can that number be restored? It's a great visual indicator of 1. how much stuff I have in a certain location, 2. If stacking is taking place, and 3.when I hit the 1000 items per container limit.

If this could be added to the Index tree per ship/hangar/container without having too much of a performance impact that would be nice too.



already there - just open your eyes and look around the UI for the new position of such info

No I am not going give you any more hints you lazy *$&%^ -- LOL


I know it's there, but I want it on the top level view, without clicking on the containers.