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New dev blog: Next Unified Inventory Update

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ZaBob
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2012-06-05 15:41:03 UTC  |  Edited by: ZaBob
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Ramman K'arojic wrote:
Soundwave,

Given the vast number of thread-naughts with comments and suggestions from every pod and his dog ; is there are definitive complete authoritative list of improvements that will be made at some point between UI - say between now and end of the year ?

Ramm


Not definitive, we have a long list that we're constantly adding to. You'll very likely see us iterating based on feedback till late in the year if needed, so this feature is definitely not being left behind :)



This is a symptom of an underlying problem.

The underlying problem is that, weeks after release, YOU STILL DO NOT HAVE A VIABLE DESIGN.

I understand about agile development, and iterating.

But that doesn't mean, throwing stuff out there, until customers stop complaining.

You actually have to *understand* the customer need, determine how you're going to fill that need, test that UNDERSTANDING by telling it to customers, getting their feedback.

In other words, you need to start including the customers in DEFINING the stories you implement.

So far, from my perspective, interacting with POSes, flying in ships, doing planetary pickups, and even occasionally docking in stations, it hasn't gotten one bit better, despite the iterations. It's even gotten marginally worse.

You *may* have improved performance a bit, but it was always horrible (even before Unified Inventory), and it's still horrible, and that's hard to compare accurately.

Here's what I want:

When I open a cargohold, I want to get that cargohold.

When I open a hanger, I want to get that hanger.

When I open a container, I want to get that container.

In other words -- I DON'T WANT THINGS UNIFIED! It doesn't help; it cannot help, in any of these situations.

When I open a container, I have ALREADY indicated what I want to look at. There is absolutely NO WAY, that throwing in a tree view with other stuff will help me.

A unified view comes in handy in a few scenarios. Like, when searching for something, and you don't know where it is.

But the whole idea that a "unified inventory system" is somehow a substitute for being able to open things and look inside, is fundamentally and irretrievably broken.

It's a substitute for Assets, not containers.

And THAT is where you went completely off the rails with your design process.
Citrute
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#142 - 2012-06-05 16:01:12 UTC
Cloned S0ul wrote:
Guys we need calm down and give them chance


Chance was given, accounts have been canceled.
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
#143 - 2012-06-05 16:18:49 UTC
Rommiee wrote:
Steijn wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
This is not the reason. We honestly thought we were ready.


Please explain to me how you thought you were ready considering the amount of negative feedback this inventory received from SiSi? Did everyone that posted feedback waste their time, because it certainly looks that way to a lot of people on here.

Also with regards to you needing to get back on track with your scheduled releases, i presume this is in the hope that you can gain a few new subs to cover the ones that have left/are leaving through this latest debacle.

IMO your priorities are completely wrong. You should be trying to keep yiour existing customer base before trying to attract new ones.


If this is really true, then I worry for the future of this game, with people like this in charge of developing it. Seriously dude, you need to go and do something else.



Eve has a very, very dedicated player base (O.K. we're all a little crazy) so while we rage on forums, we do cut them some slack and still play. Junkies will still smoke bad crack.

What really worries me is design problems and implementations like this would kill a console game, like say... Dust 514. There better be some serious Q&A mechanisms, both technical and design, put in place for that team.
DazedOne
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#144 - 2012-06-05 16:20:36 UTC
This is what I was waiting for. I knew without a shadow of a doubt CCP would eventually say screw it and continue back to another feature while leaving this one unfinished. CCP will never learn from their mistakes. A majority of the community are more than fine being beta testers for shoddy features. This is why CCP doesn't care. As long as people continue to pay why would they?

I for one firmly believe if I'm paying for a game I should not be testing their product, or hunting down bugs for them. I should be enjoying my time playing the game. Isn't that what a game is for after all?

Testing should only occur on SiSi. Thats what SiSi is supposed to be for. However, in order for SiSi testing to actually make a difference the Devs MUST listen to the testers. Tippia and several others gave them more than enough feedback on the issues with this new feature. The problem is the Devs are arrogant and do not listen to feedback from their testers. That was obvious when one of the Devs posted about not listening to their feedback.

The only time the Devs care about our thoughts is when they dump a shoddy product on us and we light the torches and flame them here on the forum. Once people unsub is when they care. That unfortunately is the only time they care. Less people are flaming them on the forums now, so this is why they are going back to the hum drum workings at their offices. It is a direct result of the complacency of the community.

All of you can see that CCP has not learned their lesson from incarna. Did you expect anything different? I cancelled all my subs and this one expires in a couple days. I am debating on whether or not to get an in game plex with isk to monitor this debacle for another month. One thing is certain, until this game is fixed I will not open my wallet and give them another penny.

The few of you calling people whiners on here need to take a step back and look at the situation. People are upset that an unfinished product was thrust upon us. We are paying them to test their product. Therefore, of course people are upset. This new UI is crippling those who do industry and manage massive amounts of assets (im not an industrialist), and it is a major blow to guys that salvage their missions. Looting is atrocious. Anything asset related lags with this new UI. This and the lack of the old functionality of the old UI is why people are upset.

It is even more disheartening when we are promised a patch to get this working properly every week until old functionality is restored. We got a couple patches and are now told to basically suck it up for a few more weeks because we want to work on other features. Makes me wonder how bad those features are going to be and whether or not CCP will actually listen to the guys that decide to test the features on SISI for them. After all CCP didn't listen to the testers on this new feature and all of us are paying the price for it.

Ad'Hakim Tahous
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#145 - 2012-06-05 16:21:20 UTC
CCP Explorer wrote:
Panhead4411 wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
I wanted to expand a bit on CCP Soundwave's comment in his dev blog that "doing frequent updates isn’t really healthy and can’t be maintained for longer periods of time" from a technical perspective. In this particular case then the frequent Inferno 1.0.x releases are starting to press against the staging process of the next main deployment.

We were planning to stage Inferno 1.1.x on 6 June but have pushed that back to 7 June to give the team working on the Unified Inventory all the time possible for updates of Inferno 1.0.x, before we must create the staging branch for Inferno 1.1.x to allow the teams working on that release to finalise their deployment. There are then going to be more updates to Unified Inventory in Inferno 1.1.x as CCP Soundwave detailed in the dev blog.
So is this the real reason the new Inventory was initially PUSHED onto TQ?

I understand and appreciate that you have in house dealines, but you seem to not be understanding that your customers would prefer a fully functional system before you try to work on something new.

Unless i've misread most of the feedback given in all the major threadnaughts thus far.
This is not the reason. We honestly thought we were ready.



OMG! .... and you're serious about this?

My main toon had to modify the equipment and actions taken last night with a support ship during a wormhole op. Even with those changes to my typical fits and movements I had to deal with longer periods uncloaked (in a very vulnerable ship), with longer periods of time at a POS in each round trip, moving less materials than is usual.

That is one very small, very minor example. You had pages of feedback from the Test Server. You have pages of feedback written since the release.

Now, after public statements from CCP Soundwave concerning the priority placed on:
(a) minimizing the damage,
(b) rapidly and repeatedly fixing what has been lost, and
(c) keeping at it until the player based is happy
.... we're now to accept that this game-breaking impediment must be lived with, accepted, and worked around because there are other priorities?

OMG! .... and you're serious about this?

We have traveled back in time. Same stubborn approach to players' reactions; same lack of intelligent design & testing; same double-speak in the Forums.

It is what you do, not what you say.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#146 - 2012-06-05 16:30:58 UTC
Kniht wrote:
CCP Explorer wrote:
[We're stuck in centralized source control.]


hg, git, bzr


Hell, even SVN would be a good fit. We've worked with 10-20GB source repositories in SVN and it handles "binary" assets just fine. SVN is at least centralized if that's what is needed.
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#147 - 2012-06-05 16:39:16 UTC
Guys, the team isn't stopping working on fixes and improvements, they are changing their release cadence. Next release in 2 days, then another one 12 days after that. The 12 days (7 days development time) isn't going to spent doing no work! Please, I understand that you are angry, upset, etc. Your vitriolic hate is doing you no good - we don't listen harder because you call us worse names. To those who are still keeping it constructive, thanks, and we are working!

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
Makari Aeron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#148 - 2012-06-05 16:44:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Makari Aeron
Contrary to what most people say, I actually *like* the new inventory (for the most part). It's exceedingly useful with the latest two patches, though I still wish the ship hangars had their own window separate from the item inventory in stations. I'll admit, I hated it at first when I went to one of our corp POSes and tried to find the Corp Hangar after clicking on the Ship Maintenance Array. Now that defenses have their own category, I'm a-ok with this change. Personally, at this point what needs improving is the speed at which the inventory opens in POSes and Corp station hangars. From what I understand, the patch on Thursday is going to hopefully improve that.

CCP RedDawn: Ugly people are just playing life on HARD mode. Personally, I'm playing on an INFERNO difficulty.

CCP Goliath: I often believe that the best way to get something done is to shout at the person trying to help you. http://goo.gl/PKGDP
Sarina Berghil
New Zion Judge Advocate
#149 - 2012-06-05 16:51:26 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Guys, the team isn't stopping working on fixes and improvements, they are changing their release cadence. Next release in 2 days, then another one 12 days after that. The 12 days (7 days development time) isn't going to spent doing no work! Please, I understand that you are angry, upset, etc. Your vitriolic hate is doing you no good - we don't listen harder because you call us worse names. To those who are still keeping it constructive, thanks, and we are working!


I remember similar statements refering to the PI UI which still has shortcut inconsistencies, unclear/undocumented data, and is generally a PITA to use. But when the release cadence changed the issues with that UI transformed into working as intended.

I think some of us has the expectation that when the rate of fixes is slowing down, we will have to settle with what we got or wait years for a fix.
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#150 - 2012-06-05 16:54:41 UTC
Sarina Berghil wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Guys, the team isn't stopping working on fixes and improvements, they are changing their release cadence. Next release in 2 days, then another one 12 days after that. The 12 days (7 days development time) isn't going to spent doing no work! Please, I understand that you are angry, upset, etc. Your vitriolic hate is doing you no good - we don't listen harder because you call us worse names. To those who are still keeping it constructive, thanks, and we are working!


I remember similar statements refering to the PI UI which still has shortcut inconsistencies, unclear/undocumented data, and is generally a PITA to use. But when the release cadence changed the issues with that UI transformed into working as intended.

I think some of us has the expectation that when the rate of fixes is slowing down, we will have to settle with what we got or wait years for a fix.


I follow the expectations set out by Soundwave and Game of Drones, and expect nothing beyond what they say, nor do I extrapolate based on what was a different feature, different team, different development methodology, different release cadence and frankly different company.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#151 - 2012-06-05 17:08:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Chokichi Ozuwara
CCP Goliath wrote:
Your vitriolic hate is doing you no good - we don't listen harder because you call us worse names.

When you guys release stuff that doesn't work, and you ignore tester feedback, this is what happens.

We didn't originate this issue, CCP did.

People are pissed because you guys made a series of compound mistakes (bad enough) and you ignored your most passionate users (much worse). You might not like how people are expressing it, but these tough words from people still subscribed are better for you and CCP than mass unsubscribes.

It's not about people motivating you to work. You're missing an essential part of understanding relationships. People are venting. We have very low expectations for you guys. We are simply expressing our frustration with that state of affairs the only way we can, short of unsubscribing.

The way you make this stop, is to fix the problem, not to lecture us on our tone. Our tone isn't the problem with the inventory.

What I think CCP misses, is that people like Tippia represent us much better than the CSM does, and we (the players) know it. So when you ignore her, you ignore us. And no one likes being in a relationship where they feel (right or wrong) that they are being ignored.

Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.
LoRDa RaMOs
Vicious Traditions
#152 - 2012-06-05 17:09:02 UTC
I'll just hope for the best guys, you're doing a good work with clearing up the mess, although, i' was hoping for a better and more thorough implementation of the idea.

Changing a system that works as windows 3.xx and does it fine, for a system that works like an unfinished and horribly mirrored windows xp on an asian media player didn't make me a satisfied costumer.

Attention 'back' button
Attention No more changing 'folders' with simple item dragging
Attention Compact tree names
QuestionQuestionQuestion
Attention PROFIT Attention
DazedOne
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#153 - 2012-06-05 17:12:10 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Sarina Berghil wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Guys, the team isn't stopping working on fixes and improvements, they are changing their release cadence. Next release in 2 days, then another one 12 days after that. The 12 days (7 days development time) isn't going to spent doing no work! Please, I understand that you are angry, upset, etc. Your vitriolic hate is doing you no good - we don't listen harder because you call us worse names. To those who are still keeping it constructive, thanks, and we are working!


I remember similar statements refering to the PI UI which still has shortcut inconsistencies, unclear/undocumented data, and is generally a PITA to use. But when the release cadence changed the issues with that UI transformed into working as intended.

I think some of us has the expectation that when the rate of fixes is slowing down, we will have to settle with what we got or wait years for a fix.


I follow the expectations set out by Soundwave and Game of Drones, and expect nothing beyond what they say, nor do I extrapolate based on what was a different feature, different team, different development methodology, different release cadence and frankly different company.



Just like how we believed Soundwave when he said that we would have weekly patches until this was fixed. Funny how that has suddenly changed....
Glarbl Blarbl
Orion-Glarbl Mining Bureau
#154 - 2012-06-05 17:13:35 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Guys, the team isn't stopping working on fixes and improvements, they are changing their release cadence. Next release in 2 days, then another one 12 days after that. The 12 days (7 days development time) isn't going to spent doing no work! Please, I understand that you are angry, upset, etc. Your vitriolic hate is doing you no good - we don't listen harder because you call us worse names. To those who are still keeping it constructive, thanks, and we are working!



Thanks for this, Goliath, it wasn't clear to a lot of us that development would continue on the UI.

I think the problem a lot of us have is that this seems like a pattern now, releasing features that many of the playerbase don't seem to want in a half-working state. I started playing Eve about a month before Incarna was released and I'm having some powerful flashbacks now.

Would it be possible for you to write a devblog detailing how CCP decides when a new feature is TQ-ready? I for one would greatly appreciate an inside view of the decision making process. I've considered logging into SISI to check out upcoming features and provide my input -- but as it seems that any feedback given about SISI is ignored, what incentive do I have to do so?

Keep in mind that since we pay to play this game we feel like we have a certain amount of ownership here. It's really frustrating to be in the position of shelling out dollars when you don't know if you're going to enjoy the experience you're paying for.
Chokichi Ozuwara
Perkone
Caldari State
#155 - 2012-06-05 17:16:24 UTC
DazedOne wrote:
Just like how we believed Soundwave when he said that we would have weekly patches until this was fixed. Funny how that has suddenly changed....

Things change, I can understand and appreciate that.

I think that CCP doesn't realize how much resentment and mistrust people have for them right now. It's better if they say less and do more, than the other way around. Arguing with us, or talking about release schedules isn't an essential part of fixing this problem. The problem has to be fixed in the game, not the forums.

Tears will be shed and pants will need to be changed all round.
DazedOne
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#156 - 2012-06-05 17:26:45 UTC
Chokichi Ozuwara wrote:
DazedOne wrote:
Just like how we believed Soundwave when he said that we would have weekly patches until this was fixed. Funny how that has suddenly changed....

Things change, I can understand and appreciate that.

I think that CCP doesn't realize how much resentment and mistrust people have for them right now. It's better if they say less and do more, than the other way around. Arguing with us, or talking about release schedules isn't an essential part of fixing this problem. The problem has to be fixed in the game, not the forums.



Your absolutely right but actions speak louder than words and thus far CCP's actions have been subpar. First they release a broken interface. Then they expect paying customers to suck it up while they fix it and then change the scheduling on when it will be fixed. What do we have to do wait 6 months? A year? How long until this is fixed? A number of players want a time line on this so they can determine whether or not to reup their accounts. No one wants to pay for something that doesn't work.

CCP is not giving us a timeline for that reason, they do not want to see a massive unsub from their playerbase while we wait for this to be fixed.
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#157 - 2012-06-05 17:35:06 UTC
Glarbl Blarbl wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Guys, the team isn't stopping working on fixes and improvements, they are changing their release cadence. Next release in 2 days, then another one 12 days after that. The 12 days (7 days development time) isn't going to spent doing no work! Please, I understand that you are angry, upset, etc. Your vitriolic hate is doing you no good - we don't listen harder because you call us worse names. To those who are still keeping it constructive, thanks, and we are working!



Thanks for this, Goliath, it wasn't clear to a lot of us that development would continue on the UI.

I think the problem a lot of us have is that this seems like a pattern now, releasing features that many of the playerbase don't seem to want in a half-working state. I started playing Eve about a month before Incarna was released and I'm having some powerful flashbacks now.

Would it be possible for you to write a devblog detailing how CCP decides when a new feature is TQ-ready? I for one would greatly appreciate an inside view of the decision making process. I've considered logging into SISI to check out upcoming features and provide my input -- but as it seems that any feedback given about SISI is ignored, what incentive do I have to do so?

Keep in mind that since we pay to play this game we feel like we have a certain amount of ownership here. It's really frustrating to be in the position of shelling out dollars when you don't know if you're going to enjoy the experience you're paying for.


I'll talk to some people about getting a/some devblog(s) written about our development processes and go into what you asked for. Don't fall into this trap of thinking that Sisi feedback is ignored though - plenty of feedback received on Sisi results in changes being made and plenty is taken on board but not implemented, for good and for bad. Look at the recent Incursion rebalancing and the continual input Affinity and team Five-0 had from seasoned incursion runners - they made a number of iterations based on that feedback.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#158 - 2012-06-05 17:37:06 UTC
DazedOne wrote:
Chokichi Ozuwara wrote:
DazedOne wrote:
Just like how we believed Soundwave when he said that we would have weekly patches until this was fixed. Funny how that has suddenly changed....

Things change, I can understand and appreciate that.

I think that CCP doesn't realize how much resentment and mistrust people have for them right now. It's better if they say less and do more, than the other way around. Arguing with us, or talking about release schedules isn't an essential part of fixing this problem. The problem has to be fixed in the game, not the forums.



CCP is not giving us a timeline for that reason, they do not want to see a massive unsub from their playerbase while we wait for this to be fixed.


Don't put words in our mouths. Firstly, we have given a timeline (please see massive outrage when we updated said timeline). We haven't said when it's going to be complete because we don't know. As Soundwave said (this is a paraphrase) "until you are happy with it".

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
DazedOne
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#159 - 2012-06-05 17:40:54 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Glarbl Blarbl wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Guys, the team isn't stopping working on fixes and improvements, they are changing their release cadence. Next release in 2 days, then another one 12 days after that. The 12 days (7 days development time) isn't going to spent doing no work! Please, I understand that you are angry, upset, etc. Your vitriolic hate is doing you no good - we don't listen harder because you call us worse names. To those who are still keeping it constructive, thanks, and we are working!



Thanks for this, Goliath, it wasn't clear to a lot of us that development would continue on the UI.

I think the problem a lot of us have is that this seems like a pattern now, releasing features that many of the playerbase don't seem to want in a half-working state. I started playing Eve about a month before Incarna was released and I'm having some powerful flashbacks now.

Would it be possible for you to write a devblog detailing how CCP decides when a new feature is TQ-ready? I for one would greatly appreciate an inside view of the decision making process. I've considered logging into SISI to check out upcoming features and provide my input -- but as it seems that any feedback given about SISI is ignored, what incentive do I have to do so?

Keep in mind that since we pay to play this game we feel like we have a certain amount of ownership here. It's really frustrating to be in the position of shelling out dollars when you don't know if you're going to enjoy the experience you're paying for.


I'll talk to some people about getting a/some devblog(s) written about our development processes and go into what you asked for. Don't fall into this trap of thinking that Sisi feedback is ignored though - plenty of feedback received on Sisi results in changes being made and plenty is taken on board but not implemented, for good and for bad. Look at the recent Incursion rebalancing and the continual input Affinity and team Five-0 had from seasoned incursion runners - they made a number of iterations based on that feedback.



The key difference here is if the incursion runners didn't like the feature they don't have to use it. For instance the incursion runners were not happy and as a result decided to do other things in eve. Now with the UI everyone has to deal with it in some frame or fashion and just waiting for our input to be added to salvage this mess is getting annoying. Right click options, double click options. Getting rid of shift clicks, more windows etc. You've read it all.

Your comparison is like comparing apples to ornages.
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#160 - 2012-06-05 17:43:03 UTC
DazedOne wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Glarbl Blarbl wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Guys, the team isn't stopping working on fixes and improvements, they are changing their release cadence. Next release in 2 days, then another one 12 days after that. The 12 days (7 days development time) isn't going to spent doing no work! Please, I understand that you are angry, upset, etc. Your vitriolic hate is doing you no good - we don't listen harder because you call us worse names. To those who are still keeping it constructive, thanks, and we are working!



Thanks for this, Goliath, it wasn't clear to a lot of us that development would continue on the UI.

I think the problem a lot of us have is that this seems like a pattern now, releasing features that many of the playerbase don't seem to want in a half-working state. I started playing Eve about a month before Incarna was released and I'm having some powerful flashbacks now.

Would it be possible for you to write a devblog detailing how CCP decides when a new feature is TQ-ready? I for one would greatly appreciate an inside view of the decision making process. I've considered logging into SISI to check out upcoming features and provide my input -- but as it seems that any feedback given about SISI is ignored, what incentive do I have to do so?

Keep in mind that since we pay to play this game we feel like we have a certain amount of ownership here. It's really frustrating to be in the position of shelling out dollars when you don't know if you're going to enjoy the experience you're paying for.


I'll talk to some people about getting a/some devblog(s) written about our development processes and go into what you asked for. Don't fall into this trap of thinking that Sisi feedback is ignored though - plenty of feedback received on Sisi results in changes being made and plenty is taken on board but not implemented, for good and for bad. Look at the recent Incursion rebalancing and the continual input Affinity and team Five-0 had from seasoned incursion runners - they made a number of iterations based on that feedback.



The key difference here is if the incursion runners didn't like the feature they don't have to use it. For instance the incursion runners were not happy and as a result decided to do other things in eve. Now with the UI everyone has to deal with it in some frame or fashion and just waiting for our input to be added to salvage this mess is getting annoying. Right click options, double click options. Getting rid of shift clicks, more windows etc. You've read it all.

Your comparison is like comparing apples to ornages.


It wasn't a comparison though, it was an example to illustrate my point about player feedback. At no point did I compare Unified Inventory and Incursions.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath