These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Combat frigate changes for Inferno

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Onslaughtor
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#361 - 2012-05-22 05:35:39 UTC
Sidra Necia wrote:
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Here are some changes just baked from the oven.
MERLIN:

Again, good comments regarding the ship general role and range bonus, so it has been replaced with the old good school shield resistance bonus to turn it back into the heavy tackler / brawler you all learned to care about and love fondly.


  • New bonuses: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage and 5% to shield resistances per level
  • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 350 / 175 s / 2
  • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 / 3.6 / 997000 / 3.36 s



I don't like these changes bth... Attention
Rockets/missiles are missing !Shocked

I would make the following changes to the merlin:

3 turret hardpoints
3 launcher hardpoints
4 high slots as usual.

5% shield resists + 5% Bonus to small hybirds damage + 10% bonus to rocket rate of fire.

Why ? :
This makes the Merlin less specialized and more versatile.
One would have to choose between launchers and blasters, thus trading off between melting dps or range.Twisted
This dilemma makes eve ships more interesting!

The bonus to rockets is essential to raise it's dps to be compatible with the other frigs in PvP.
If one chooses to make a long-er range frig.

If you take away it's launchers you make it weaker against rifters.
And currently I don't see many of the changed frigs that could contest against the rifter.
Because the rifter would "kite" it at 5k and still apply dieceent dps to kill it.

In PvE one could fit rockets and not have to worry about hitting approach all the time.
Sort of like a mini drake. (obviously with mini dps and mini tank).
And it gives new players a good vibe of Caldari. I remember running missions in the Merlin and I had a blast with launchers Big smile

Again if you make the frigs more specialized, espessialy taking away rockets/missiles from caldari, you dumb down the game. A little variation is highly nessesary to keep it interesting. Pirate



I agree with this ^

My only change is that I would keep the current plan for 3 high slots. This would keep it in line with the other revamped frigs like the punisher, and would weakly force the pilot to commit to hybrids or rockets when fitting. Besides, Caldari are the missile users, their brawler frig should have them as a option.

So the specs should look something like this

Quote:

MERLIN:

New bonuses: 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage, 10% bonus to rocket rate of fire, and 5% to shield resistances per level
Slot layout: 3 H, 4 M, 3 L, 3 turrets, 3 launchers
Fittings: 40 PWG, 180 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 500 / 350 / 350
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 350 / 175 s / 2 s
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 310 / 3.6 / 997000 / 3.36 s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 50km / 580 / 5
Sensor strength: 11 Gravimetric
Signature radius: 39





Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#362 - 2012-05-24 07:20:24 UTC
Let the Merlin as it is now.
There are lot of Caldary Frigate. Give missiles bonus to another.

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#363 - 2012-05-24 18:49:04 UTC
Cardano Firesnake wrote:
Let the Merlin as it is now.
There are lot of Caldary Frigate. Give missiles bonus to another.


He has a point. There's this brilliant little frigate called the Kestrel sitting around. Buff it, make it comparable to the Merlin in terms of defense perhaps, but have it keep it's specialization in missiles. Then, suddenly, we have a T1 missile frigate. The Merlin does NOT have to be a dedicated missile boat. Caldari use a combination of hybrids and missiles. There could be the pure hybrid ship that is the Merlin, with the Kestrel being pure missiles, and then perhaps the Condor or Griffin or something could be reworked into a combination of the two weapon systems, like the old Merlin. It could work.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#364 - 2012-05-25 00:54:58 UTC
So why should people want to fly T1 frigates? Are we doing anything to make a good reason for them besides as throw away cyno boats/low sec traveling boats? The reasons for T1 cruisers is apparent: low cost, but still fairly effective in pvp. But for frigates, only the T2 frigs have a good case for pvp, unless your sp is just that low that you cannot fly a T1 cruiser with halfway decent skills. So again, what are we doing to T1 frigs that actually matters? Why would anyone want to fly them after say 10k sp besides to light a cyno or travel? And are we going to do anything to give a good reason for flying them or is all this effort just mostly going to waste?

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#365 - 2012-05-25 02:17:23 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
So why should people want to fly T1 frigates? Are we doing anything to make a good reason for them besides as throw away cyno boats/low sec traveling boats? The reasons for T1 cruisers is apparent: low cost, but still fairly effective in pvp. But for frigates, only the T2 frigs have a good case for pvp, unless your sp is just that low that you cannot fly a T1 cruiser with halfway decent skills. So again, what are we doing to T1 frigs that actually matters? Why would anyone want to fly them after say 10k sp besides to light a cyno or travel? And are we going to do anything to give a good reason for flying them or is all this effort just mostly going to waste?

I was thinking about this after the patch hit TQ - the changes make combat frigates balanced between each other, but I'd still take a cruiser over a frigate any day.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Onslaughtor
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#366 - 2012-05-25 07:38:56 UTC
Galphii wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:
So why should people want to fly T1 frigates? Are we doing anything to make a good reason for them besides as throw away cyno boats/low sec traveling boats? The reasons for T1 cruisers is apparent: low cost, but still fairly effective in pvp. But for frigates, only the T2 frigs have a good case for pvp, unless your sp is just that low that you cannot fly a T1 cruiser with halfway decent skills. So again, what are we doing to T1 frigs that actually matters? Why would anyone want to fly them after say 10k sp besides to light a cyno or travel? And are we going to do anything to give a good reason for flying them or is all this effort just mostly going to waste?

I was thinking about this after the patch hit TQ - the changes make combat frigates balanced between each other, but I'd still take a cruiser over a frigate any day.


Frigates are very powerful ships in their own way. As for why not fly a cruiser, is that a frig can move fast. Two t1 frigs can take down a cruiser just fine. Its really about how you fit them. This is why the frigs are getting a rebalancing, because the only frig with any real fitting potential was the Rifter.

Now the only problem still facing them is the fact that you can't use them on lowsec gates/stations.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#367 - 2012-05-25 11:45:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Onslaughtor wrote:
Galphii wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:
So why should people want to fly T1 frigates? Are we doing anything to make a good reason for them besides as throw away cyno boats/low sec traveling boats? The reasons for T1 cruisers is apparent: low cost, but still fairly effective in pvp. But for frigates, only the T2 frigs have a good case for pvp, unless your sp is just that low that you cannot fly a T1 cruiser with halfway decent skills. So again, what are we doing to T1 frigs that actually matters? Why would anyone want to fly them after say 10k sp besides to light a cyno or travel? And are we going to do anything to give a good reason for flying them or is all this effort just mostly going to waste?

I was thinking about this after the patch hit TQ - the changes make combat frigates balanced between each other, but I'd still take a cruiser over a frigate any day.


Frigates are very powerful ships in their own way. As for why not fly a cruiser, is that a frig can move fast. Two t1 frigs can take down a cruiser just fine. Its really about how you fit them. This is why the frigs are getting a rebalancing, because the only frig with any real fitting potential was the Rifter.

Now the only problem still facing them is the fact that you can't use them on lowsec gates/stations.


Two t1 cruisers can take down a cruiser much better than two frigates can. And they can handle a frig quite easily as well. So why should people fly frigates besides simply having no sp to get into cruisers? Give us reasons to fly frigates over cruisers besides gimping cruisers. Until the choice between frigates and cruisers gets tougher to make, all the work in the world on the frigates is relatively meaningless.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
Alyna Stormwind
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#368 - 2012-05-26 06:29:43 UTC
CCP has screwed the Rifter over pretty nicely. Good job.
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#369 - 2012-05-29 01:40:08 UTC
I'm still not sold on the incursus having the rep bonus - even at 50%, it's still pretty weak, and active reps are too much of a drain on a ship that has a propulsion mod running all the time, plus cap-using weapons and a short point and web. Cap boosters require the dropping of a propulsion mod or web, which is far from ideal in the current battle environment, and since it's generally going to be flying within a few km of the target, it's very vulnerable to cap warfare. Much like the brutix, I'm not bothering to go for local rep fits, but I certainly do appreciate the two extra lowslots for buffer purposes.

Perhaps a reduction in cap use for armour reppers would be more useful?

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#370 - 2012-05-29 03:59:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
The Incursus is scary as hell on paper if you ask me as is the Merlin.

I run active tanks almost exclusively on my frigates (Punisher/Slicer) and only have cap issues when/if a fight exceeds the 'normal' 45-60s .. trick is to have just enough gank so that you can win against an equally skilled opponent (always presume small neut will be in play) in that time .. shorter fights are not actually fights, but ganks .. in longer fights one squeezes more rep out of each cycle (heat!) and intentionally allow hull damage (excellent resists/HP with T2 suitcase).

Frigate fights are fast and furious. If you struggle with cap then you are either trying to go where you shouldn't be able to go in the first place )punching waay above your weight) or you are struck with the ailment that afflicts mission whores: the concept of perma-tank (when 30s full-bore is enough for all missions.

PS: Run the numbers. A small rep needs just 30s unheated to surpass the EHP added by a 200 plate .. so unless you operate in blobby environs where alpha is a major concern or go against multi-neut enemies then you are better off with active on frigs. Will be god-like with +50%.
Personally run 200+SAR when in doubt about a fight, but full buffer is just begging to be smacked down .. if you ever die with juice in the tank (cap) you are entitles to a /double facepalm, rather than the singular Smile
ITTigerClawIK
Galactic Rangers
#371 - 2012-05-29 13:23:51 UTC
i have to ask since no update for a while, but are CCP happy with the first 5 Frigates and are they ready to move onto the broken ones?
Fidelium Mortis
Minor Major Miners LLC
#372 - 2012-05-29 17:43:44 UTC
So far here's what I've observed from the frigate changes introduced in Inferno:

Tormentor: Still needs work - it's not very effective for its intended role (in practice), and the punisher is still heavily favored as the primary amarr combat frig.

Punisher: Overall the change is good - seeing more lasers fit over ACs which was fairly standard in the past.

Merlin: Overall good - however the merlin seems a bit less versatile but this could also open up opportunities for other caldari frigates in future updates.

Incursus: Overall good - the dual rep incursus will probably be FOTM for a while and is one of the few T1 frigs that can easily go toe to toe with many destroyers.

Rifter: still good.

ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon
Mira Lynne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#373 - 2012-05-29 21:06:02 UTC
Really Looking forward to what the future has in store with Tiericide. Particularly:
-What will happen to the Remaining Frigates?
-What will happen to mining Cruisers?
---What will happen to T1 Logi Cruisers?
-What will happen to Moa/Ferox/Rokh? (Please Merlinize them!)
-What will happen to Destroyers?
---What will happen to Battlecruisers?

[u]I, too, horse frogs.[/u] Support the Return of Realistic Module Icons! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114818&find=unread
Imrik86
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#374 - 2012-05-30 05:02:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Imrik86
F*** me sideways, what are you doing to Merlin?

- No EHP
- No speed
- No cap (even less now, since you cant fit rockets anymore)
- Huge sig radius from the start (on a ship you're supposed to fit SE)

If you want to make it a long boat rail platform, either increased its survivability (keep shield resists or increase cap) or allow it to snipe (give significantly more damage, or improve speed/agility so it can keep distance). But please don't just make it another PvE boat ffs.

EDIT: NVM, now I noticed the slot layout changed. It can be interesting.
2manno Asp
Death By Design
#375 - 2012-05-30 14:19:26 UTC
i don't know how many times this needs to be pointed out before it sinks in. you cannot control range with only 2 midslots. therefore, this focus has no meaning.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hello folks,

Punisher: improved role to fit close-medium range brawler



this is why it's never been better than a rifter and never will be. all it can ever hope to do is get lucky until it has 3 midslots... or some ridiculous speed bonus... or some anti-web attribute... or some target that just wants to die to it.
Fidelium Mortis
Minor Major Miners LLC
#376 - 2012-05-30 14:52:19 UTC
2manno Asp wrote:
i don't know how many times this needs to be pointed out before it sinks in. you cannot control range with only 2 midslots. therefore, this focus has no meaning.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hello folks,

Punisher: improved role to fit close-medium range brawler



this is why it's never been better than a rifter and never will be. all it can ever hope to do is get lucky until it has 3 midslots... or some ridiculous speed bonus... or some anti-web attribute... or some target that just wants to die to it.



Last I checked a neut does a pretty good job of controlling a targets speed, reps, ewar, etc.

ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon
Lucian Gaterau
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#377 - 2012-05-30 20:15:27 UTC
The one thing I see missing from the new ship lineups is the one thing frigates do better than any other class -- tackling. The problem with lining up all ship sizes with the same four roles is that different ship sizes are naturally suited to different roles. No frigate is ever going to be a serious damage-dealer unless the only thing its fighting are other frigates; it should have specific roles which are suited to its advantages.

Giving the T1 frigates down-sized versions of their T2 equivalents I think would be much more effective. Atron gets point bonuses instead of damage bonuses, etc.
2manno Asp
Death By Design
#378 - 2012-05-31 17:42:14 UTC
Fidelium Mortis wrote:
2manno Asp wrote:
i don't know how many times this needs to be pointed out before it sinks in. you cannot control range with only 2 midslots. therefore, this focus has no meaning.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Hello folks,

Punisher: improved role to fit close-medium range brawler



this is why it's never been better than a rifter and never will be. all it can ever hope to do is get lucky until it has 3 midslots... or some ridiculous speed bonus... or some anti-web attribute... or some target that just wants to die to it.



Last I checked a neut does a pretty good job of controlling a targets speed, reps, ewar, etc.


not directly no. it does a good job of nueting cap, indirectly affecting speed, reps and ewar if it goes on long enough, and i don't have a nos for instance, or i'm using a ship that relies on cap, or i'm not nueting you too.

it also doesn't stop me from sitting outside your nuet range, and most importantly, it doesn't stop me from running away if i think i'm going to get nueted out, or lose.

all of which are problems of range control, the main problem, as i said before.

bottome line is it's a tie or lose frig (unless it's some sort of arranged fight to the death). always has been.
Mira Lynne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#379 - 2012-06-04 04:27:20 UTC
@CCP: When can we expect the next round of Frigate Tiericide to be announced?
And when can we expect Destroyer and Cruiser Tiericide to begin?

[u]I, too, horse frogs.[/u] Support the Return of Realistic Module Icons! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114818&find=unread
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#380 - 2012-06-04 14:45:45 UTC
Hey folks,

Thought it would be time for an update here. So far we are quite happy with the frigates we revamped in Inferno and we will start moving to the others soon.


What we would like to do next:


  • Keep working on frigate overhaul, as we barely started so far - that means having a look at role, slot layout of the remaining hulls and sorting them into the combat, attack, or support categories (the bombardment role was removed as feedback shown it wasn't great to start with)

  • Revamp the rookie ships to be more versatile - ideally they should offer a lot of small bonuses to show what their race philosophy is all about, without being as efficient at any tech 1 frigate in their own roles

  • Since we are removing mining frigates, introduce an ORE frigate to take over that role in general - think of it as an expendable, fast miner able to ninja-mine in hostile environments, while mining barges are more of a static mining platforms

  • Introducing an ORE frig makes us realize how painfully outdated mining barges / exhumers are in general - we want to make them all viable in some fashion and not systemically make the Hulk better at that role. That also means having a look at skill requirements, as the jump from a Covetor to a Hulk is almost non-existant (one idea it to move all mining barge skill requirements to level 1, while exhumers keep a mining barge skill requirement at 5)

  • Then move into tech 1 destroyer hulls - having a look at the existing ships and introducing 4 new toys to play with.



Thanks for your feedback people, it helped a lot for the Inferno release.