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In a game world where resources become depleted and reseeded...
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Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#101 - 2012-06-02 19:49:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
AllUrIskRBelongToMeToo wrote:
I am not saying that 100% of hulkageddon is being funded by their moon. That means it is not the only reason that goons can fund hulkageddon. If CCp took the moon out right now, hulkageddon could easily continue on, or most likely would.

What I was saying is that the entire hulkageddon situation, where people are being paid to grief made me consider means that the goons can fund such a project indefinitely.

Well I could personally afford to fund such a project indefinitely, I'm fairly certain an alliance of 8,000 people in a coalition that owns half the null sec in the game might be able to manage it too.

AllUrIskRBelongToMeToo wrote:
What sources of income does a major alliance have? Chances are they have their hands in just about every means of making isk, but which ones are unique to major alliances? Refine that down to moon mining and I ended up with the experience I had with a pos moon mining network as a rather hypocritical means of funding the war on miners, afk moon mining.

The point is your experiences in moon mining are considerably different to mining technetium, I very much doubt you had to put together fleets of supers, titans and hundreds upon hundreds of sub-capitals in order to protect your moons?

Whilst you may have some experience in setting up a POS and a moon mining operation, that is entirely different to the experience of successfully holding a technetium moon.

AllUrIskRBelongToMeToo wrote:
This linked up with the recent change to datacores in which ccp said that it was just to easy and to passive of a means of making isk. This all boiled down to the fact that moon mining is passive as no one is actively piloting a ship to harvest the materials from the moon. All the other nonsense related to moon mining is not counted as actively harvesting the materials. So regardless of hulkageddon teetering on the output of a moon, or otherwise, the point of the thread is to shine a light on a mechanic that is flawed and outdated according to CCP's statements and recent changes.

I do agree with you concerning moon mining, but for different reasons. Tech moons are not passive income, it is very hard work to hold a technetium moon. That is the point we have been trying to get across to you, not that we agree with moon mining.

The issue I have with moon mining is that it puts a substantial source of ISK income into the hands of individuals high up in an alliance, rather than the alliance members who fight for the moon. Whilst this isn't too bad in goonswarm, they're actually pretty good when it comes to ship replacement and upgrading systems for their members, in some alliances it creates a very uneven distribution of wealth.

There are also issues with bottlenecks, holding a POS not being tied to SOV, power projection making it too easy to hold a large number of POSes with a small force etc. but I'm not going to get into that because most people on these forums already know all the arguments concerning moon goo.

AllUrIskRBelongToMeToo wrote:
No, I do not have any real stream of datacores, I don't really care much about the change, nor am I a miner that has been blasted in hulkageddon, though I do have a problem with the fact that I have talked to some of those hulk pilots and that they are simply players trying to be as active in eve as they can within their RL obligations. It is better to have more people in game that can have various experiences that they are seeking out then to purge an entire segment of the game's population for some scam that the goons are pulling that is thinly vieled as an attack against people that are being portrayed as parasites of the game.

The issue with high sec mining, and other somewhat risk-free high sec professions, is that they generate large amounts of materials and account for little destruction and few meaningful ISK sinks.

I won't go into it here, again because most people know the arguments, but I recommend you view these links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudflation

http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?13367-EVE-O-Nomics-wat-is-isk-sink

*EDIT: It's also worth noting that goons, for a long time, have been calling for a nerf to technetium. Mittani in particular has been pretty vocal on the subject, and I would not be surprised if he set up OTEC purely to nudge CCP into hurrying up with it.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
AllUrIskRBelongToMeToo
NuclearSpaceFishCapitalism
#102 - 2012-06-02 20:02:52 UTC
The only thing I will say about that before logging for now is that the need to defend the moon is not ignored. The thing is that the fleet, or the individuals that the fleet would be comprised of are not sitting there in moon harvesting ships. Shipping the materials to the market is also known, but does not factor into the moon constantly pumping out materials until ccp pulls the server's plug. That is the point that people have been missing, it is not about all of the stuff that is associated with the process of holding, capturing, moving stuff to market, that is all on the periphery and has nothing to do with this leak in the damn that continues to pour out isk that no one is actively attempting to harvest.


As for miners and anything else done in hisec, some of the isk is being used in 0.0, some of it is used in lowsec. A significant amount is probably sitting somewhere in hisec stations. You think CCP put in a ship spinner counter for no reason? there are people in this game that will never go to 0.0, and that will never fight. While their isk is not being put not into goods that are destroyed at a constant rate it is being put into stuff that serves as nothing more then collections. Those collections, those stockpiles of ships never to be flown into a fight are lumps of neutralized isk and or minerals. Does it matter if someone has 100 bilion isk sitting in their wallet or stuffed into navy ships that are never going to be used other then to cruise around in for fun in hisec?

isk stashed away is isk neutralized, thus an isk sink even if it is not effectively destroyed.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#103 - 2012-06-02 21:00:20 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
AllUrIskRBelongToMeToo wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:

RubyPorto wrote:

1) Bull.

2) Couple months. But that's only because of the large fleets the owners have fielded every single time one has been.

Hell a goon admitted earlier that they are even botting hulkageddon by automating payouts..



Awesome.Lol The hypocrisy continues. Most amusing.P


So, according to you anyone who uses EvE-Kill, BattleClinic, EvEMon, EvEHQ, or any other program that processes API data in any way automatically is Botting? Gadzooks! 90% of EvE Players Bot! Golly Gee Whizz, you have uncovered something.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
ashley Eoner
#104 - 2012-06-02 21:09:14 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
AllUrIskRBelongToMeToo wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:

RubyPorto wrote:

1) Bull.

2) Couple months. But that's only because of the large fleets the owners have fielded every single time one has been.

Hell a goon admitted earlier that they are even botting hulkageddon by automating payouts..



Awesome.Lol The hypocrisy continues. Most amusing.P


So, according to you anyone who uses EvE-Kill, BattleClinic, EvEMon, EvEHQ, or any other program that processes API data in any way automatically is Botting? Gadzooks! 90% of EvE Players Bot! Golly Gee Whizz, you have uncovered something.
They sure would be hypocrites if they are raging about people using automation...
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#105 - 2012-06-02 21:11:28 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
AllUrIskRBelongToMeToo wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:

RubyPorto wrote:

1) Bull.

2) Couple months. But that's only because of the large fleets the owners have fielded every single time one has been.

Hell a goon admitted earlier that they are even botting hulkageddon by automating payouts..



Awesome.Lol The hypocrisy continues. Most amusing.P


So, according to you anyone who uses EvE-Kill, BattleClinic, EvEMon, EvEHQ, or any other program that processes API data in any way automatically is Botting? Gadzooks! 90% of EvE Players Bot! Golly Gee Whizz, you have uncovered something.
They sure would be hypocrites if they are raging about people using automation...


Totally different things, and you know it.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon