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Warfare & Tactics

 
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First Impression of Faction Warfare -- post inferno patch

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Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#241 - 2012-06-01 16:33:51 UTC
Har Harrison wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:

We have good reason to think raa fell without a fight due to station lockouts.
Ignorance is bliss. Raa has no stations, and there's a high sec station next door to Raa that could have been used.

Bottom line: Amarr don't have the personnel right now to spend defending a non-contiguous system (not in the Kamela/Sahtogas pipe) like Raa.

This

We are trying to hold the pipe and extend it rather then save the one isolated system that holds little value.

Again I say

HIT AUGA AND THE OTHER BACKWATER SYSTEMS AND MAKE THE MINNIES REACT TO US FOR ONCE instead of complaining!!!



That system holds just as much value in the war as any other.

The only reason we didn't fight for it is because it is isolated. The only reason it is isolated is because of station lockouts. Hence the station lockouts are the reason we didn't fight for it.

Your "holding the pipe" is not really helping the overall amarr militia make gains any more (and likely less) than if you were running offensive plexes as much as you could. To force the minmatar to spread out.

The pipe you are holding is pretty much worthless. Minmatar doesn't need it, and no matter how we upgrade it our lp is still worthless. But whatever keep clutching your pipe. I don't care, what you do with your free time. P

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#242 - 2012-06-01 16:35:03 UTC
Princess Nexxala wrote:
Not 100% certain but I think it only counts final blow and only if the victim is FW

Cearain wrote:

Also I'm not sure how the chart works but the number of kills for a week seems low. I thought everyone could get 20 kills a night.



That makes sense. Or it must have been early in the week.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#243 - 2012-06-01 16:40:16 UTC
Princess Nexxala wrote:
RL vacation i think

Cearain wrote:


I don't see XGallentius on the chart for most vp in the last week either. I guess he is too busy with pvp. P




Well a week from when he posted it would take us right up to the expansion launch on 5/22.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Of Essence
#244 - 2012-06-01 16:49:01 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Actually I do give the whole station lock out part of the credit for the fights in kamela for this reason. It would be stupid to fight so hard for kamela with Tuomuta sitting right there. However, there are allot of negative sec status pilots in the militia so it made sense.


And here's the catch: WTB a mechanic that gives as much incentive to fight as the station lockouts do, but still allows the losing side to stay in the fight.

Maybe station lockouts are a bad idea. On one hand I hate them out of principle OTOH I love the increased fighting.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#245 - 2012-06-01 16:53:59 UTC
Cearain wrote:


I don't see XGallentius on the chart for most vp in the last week either. I guess he is too busy with pvp. P
I've been playing my alt in Amarrian Retribution. How else could I possibly know what the Amarr plexing strategy is?
Haulie Berry
#246 - 2012-06-01 16:56:33 UTC
chatgris wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Actually I do give the whole station lock out part of the credit for the fights in kamela for this reason. It would be stupid to fight so hard for kamela with Tuomuta sitting right there. However, there are allot of negative sec status pilots in the militia so it made sense.


And here's the catch: WTB a mechanic that gives as much incentive to fight as the station lockouts do, but still allows the losing side to stay in the fight.

Maybe station lockouts are a bad idea. On one hand I hate them out of principle OTOH I love the increased fighting.


Station lockout is possibly the most sensible thing to ever happen to FW, and for all the tears, it was utterly stupid that you could simply dock up in enemy controlled territory.

"Hey, just killed a whole fleet of your guys, mind if I park my **** here? Really? You just have no problem with that at all, huh?" Roll
Princess Nexxala
Zero Syndicate
#247 - 2012-06-01 17:42:04 UTC
While I dont mind the station thing, if you are going to take a RP angle don't you find it silly we can still dock in enemy high sec?

Haulie Berry wrote:

Station lockout is possibly the most sensible thing to ever happen to FW, and for all the tears, it was utterly stupid that you could simply dock up in enemy controlled territory.

"Hey, just killed a whole fleet of your guys, mind if I park my **** here? Really? You just have no problem with that at all, huh?" Roll


nom nom
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#248 - 2012-06-01 17:59:28 UTC
chatgris wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Actually I do give the whole station lock out part of the credit for the fights in kamela for this reason. It would be stupid to fight so hard for kamela with Tuomuta sitting right there. However, there are allot of negative sec status pilots in the militia so it made sense.


And here's the catch: WTB a mechanic that gives as much incentive to fight as the station lockouts do, but still allows the losing side to stay in the fight.

Maybe station lockouts are a bad idea. On one hand I hate them out of principle OTOH I love the increased fighting.


I think the economic incentives are plenty. Getting to level 5 yields huge gains. If they dropped the horrendous cost increase for lp stores that the losing side faces I don't think there would be a problem.

Other things that they have done like making the map more visible as to what is contested helps a bit as well. The lp upgrades getting drained by the other side helps as well. LP for pvp is another great change that helps promote pvp.

The station lockouts on the other hand decrease fighting more than they increase it - except for that one limitted example.

Why are faction war players docking their ships in the war zone to begin with? Are they doing it so they can do industry? For most probably not.

I suspect most FW players were putting ships in the war zone so they can get into fights and reship for fights faster. Making that more difficult just means well you won't get in fights as quickly.

In sum if they:
1) drop the station lockout
2) make it so the lowest lp bonus would be pre-inferno prices
3) notify us when plexes are attacked so we can react quickly with pvp ships
4) remove or neuter the npcs so they don't prevent pvp
5) Continue to iterate and tweak the plex spawn mechanics and flip times to promote pvp.

Then we would have a great system. We would have a hell of a lot more pvp happening than in the current system. And it would be allot more spread out and not just blobs in a few front line systems.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#249 - 2012-06-01 18:14:28 UTC
chatgris wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Actually I do give the whole station lock out part of the credit for the fights in kamela for this reason. It would be stupid to fight so hard for kamela with Tuomuta sitting right there. However, there are allot of negative sec status pilots in the militia so it made sense.


And here's the catch: WTB a mechanic that gives as much incentive to fight as the station lockouts do, but still allows the losing side to stay in the fight.

Maybe station lockouts are a bad idea. On one hand I hate them out of principle OTOH I love the increased fighting.


Can you imagine how much more fighting there could be if everyone could move reships and supplys around like we used to, with the new system.

Thats why im crying like a little ***** about it, all changes are good but the station thingy, we could be slapping each other about crazy loads!!!

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#250 - 2012-06-01 18:23:49 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
chatgris wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Actually I do give the whole station lock out part of the credit for the fights in kamela for this reason. It would be stupid to fight so hard for kamela with Tuomuta sitting right there. However, there are allot of negative sec status pilots in the militia so it made sense.


And here's the catch: WTB a mechanic that gives as much incentive to fight as the station lockouts do, but still allows the losing side to stay in the fight.

Maybe station lockouts are a bad idea. On one hand I hate them out of principle OTOH I love the increased fighting.


Can you imagine how much more fighting there could be if everyone could move reships and supplys around like we used to, with the new system.

Thats why im crying like a little ***** about it, all changes are good but the station thingy, we could be slapping each other about crazy loads!!!


Re: Sitting on station in Machariels!

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#251 - 2012-06-01 18:40:08 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Muad 'dib wrote:
chatgris wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Actually I do give the whole station lock out part of the credit for the fights in kamela for this reason. It would be stupid to fight so hard for kamela with Tuomuta sitting right there. However, there are allot of negative sec status pilots in the militia so it made sense.


And here's the catch: WTB a mechanic that gives as much incentive to fight as the station lockouts do, but still allows the losing side to stay in the fight.

Maybe station lockouts are a bad idea. On one hand I hate them out of principle OTOH I love the increased fighting.


Can you imagine how much more fighting there could be if everyone could move reships and supplys around like we used to, with the new system.

Thats why im crying like a little ***** about it, all changes are good but the station thingy, we could be slapping each other about crazy loads!!!


Re: Sitting on station in Machariels!



If you can't be bothered to create an insta-undock station camping can be addressed in several other ways. Including station gun fire that starts after 30 seconds or so. But the ability to dock and repair should not be effected.

Despite your dig, his point still stands. This would be a truly great and pretty much unanimously applauded expansion if they just gave up on the null sec lite station lock outs.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#252 - 2012-06-01 18:44:11 UTC

BTW

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=107393

CCPs thread that asks for player feed back seems to be ganked when you try to give feedback. Its been that way for a while.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Haulie Berry
#253 - 2012-06-01 20:15:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Princess Nexxala wrote:
While I dont mind the station thing, if you are going to take a RP angle don't you find it silly we can still dock in enemy high sec?





I do, but it's a quirk I'm willing to accept. I think disallowing that would have a hugely negative impact on the population of FW. The opportunity cost would simply be too high for a lot of players, I think - so, while I would personally prefer such a restriction, I'm willing to overlook the exception for the sake keeping the cost of FW low enough that people are willing to participate.
Haulie Berry
#254 - 2012-06-01 20:26:12 UTC
Quote:
Can you imagine how much more fighting there could be if everyone could move reships and supplys around like we used to, with the new system.

Thats why im crying like a little ***** about it, all changes are good but the station thingy, we could be slapping each other about crazy loads!!!



Do you guys really not understand that a large part of the station lockout was to create an actual battleline?

I get that you're desperately attached to backhacking for some as-yet-to-be-discerned reason, but the system has pretty obviously been designed to make that less attractive, and for good reason.

Station lockout doesn't actually present a huge hurdle to reshipping and repairing when you're primarily fighting either in your own space, one jump into enemy space.

Many of us ARE slapping each other about crazy loads. Lamaa, Kamela, Sosala, and Anka all saw significant fleet action last night.

And, for all your crying about how you're in an impossible underdog state, Min just lost Lamaa - primarily thanks to the efforts of a bunch of inexperienced newbs in meta0 frigates. You have one more system you can dock in, now, but I'm sure you'll continue to whine because it isn't Auga.
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#255 - 2012-06-01 20:26:46 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
I do, but it's a quirk I'm willing to accept. I think disallowing that would have a hugely negative impact on the population of FW. The operational cost would simply be too high - so, while I would personally prefer such a restriction, I'm willing to overlook the exception for the sake keeping the operational cost of FW low enough that people are willing to participate.


Quote:
George Bernard Shaw once found himself at a dinner party, seated beside an attractive woman. "Madam," he asked, "would you go to bed with me for a thousand pounds?" The woman blushed and rather indignantly shook her head.

"For ten thousand pounds?" he asked. "No. I would not." "Then how about fifty thousand pounds?" he continued.

The colossal sum gave the woman pause, and after further reflection, she coyly replied: "Perhaps." "And if I were to offer you five pounds?" Shaw asked.

"Mr. Shaw!" the woman exclaimed. "What do you take me for!" "We have already established what you are," Shaw calmly replied. "Now we are merely haggling over the price."
Haulie Berry
#256 - 2012-06-01 20:29:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Kuehnelt wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
I do, but it's a quirk I'm willing to accept. I think disallowing that would have a hugely negative impact on the population of FW. The operational cost would simply be too high - so, while I would personally prefer such a restriction, I'm willing to overlook the exception for the sake keeping the operational cost of FW low enough that people are willing to participate.


Quote:
George Bernard Shaw once found himself at a dinner party, seated beside an attractive woman. "Madam," he asked, "would you go to bed with me for a thousand pounds?" The woman blushed and rather indignantly shook her head.

"For ten thousand pounds?" he asked. "No. I would not." "Then how about fifty thousand pounds?" he continued.

The colossal sum gave the woman pause, and after further reflection, she coyly replied: "Perhaps." "And if I were to offer you five pounds?" Shaw asked.

"Mr. Shaw!" the woman exclaimed. "What do you take me for!" "We have already established what you are," Shaw calmly replied. "Now we are merely haggling over the price."


I'm sure you think you're being very pithy, but typically, a willingness to compromise for the greater good is only seen as a bad thing by fanatics and selfish children who are only willing to accept it their way.

I would *personally* prefer it if I did not have to listen to imbeciles in Militia chat whining about some irrelevant war target playing station games in Hek.

I personally spend 0% of my time docked in enemy high sec, however, so your comparison is both infantile and logically faulty.

I'm willing to accept something other than my preference because I think it is to the benefit of the system as a whole. You should try it sometime.
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#257 - 2012-06-01 20:34:21 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
I'm sure you think you're being very pithy, but typically, a willingness to compromise for the greater good is only seen as a bad thing by fanatics and selfish children who are only willing to accept it their way.


You have not argued that station lockout is good for such and such gameplay reasons. You argued that it 'made sense' - that 'making sense' trumps the gameplay complaints that some people have about it. You then immediately agreed that 'making sense' is not a good enough reason to support station lock-out, and pointed out that you can see some problems that it poses to gameplay.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#258 - 2012-06-01 20:37:53 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Quote:
Can you imagine how much more fighting there could be if everyone could move reships and supplys around like we used to, with the new system.

Thats why im crying like a little ***** about it, all changes are good but the station thingy, we could be slapping each other about crazy loads!!!



Do you guys really not understand that a large part of the station lockout was to create an actual battleline?

.



Of course. Now just like in null sec, the blob can slowly creep across the systems and the damage the other side can do behind enemy lines is greatly reduced.

I don't know about caldari and gallente but in the Amarr minmatar war there are only a few systems that aren't dead. Whereas before we used to be able to roam around throughout and get fights. Now its you either fight the kam/kourm blobs or you have a slow night.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Haulie Berry
#259 - 2012-06-01 20:41:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Kuehnelt wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
I'm sure you think you're being very pithy, but typically, a willingness to compromise for the greater good is only seen as a bad thing by fanatics and selfish children who are only willing to accept it their way.


You have not argued that station lockout is good for such and such gameplay reasons. You argued that it 'made sense' - that 'making sense' trumps the gameplay complaints that some people have about it. You then immediately agreed that 'making sense' is not a good enough reason to support station lock-out, and pointed out that you can see some problems that it poses to gameplay.


No, I agreed that i'm personally willing to accept that compromise. I didn't say it wasn't good enough in any objective sense - just that I, personally, am willing to accept it. They're two wholly separate things.

Killing station games alone is a colossal victory for gameplay reasons, if you really need one. I've never met a player who actually likes station games. They're officially dead in FW, and all anyone can do is ***** about how they can't play station games anymore. P

I've also suggested that their gameplay complaints are wholly fictitious, largely a result of their unwillingness to adapt to the new rules. Muad`dib and co have some pathetic obsession with backhacking, an activity that is adversely affected by station lockout. I have never-not-once actually seen one of them any closer to the front lines than Auga or Huloa, which still puts them about two jumps away from the actual combat zone.


Quote:
Of course. Now just like in null sec, the blob can slowly creep across the systems and the damage the other side can do behind enemy lines is greatly reduced.

I don't know about caldari and gallente but in the Amarr minmatar war there are only a few systems that aren't dead. Whereas before we used to be able to roam around throughout and get fights. Now its you either fight the kam/kourm blobs or you have a slow night.


All I heard was, "NO! I DON'T WANNA CHANGE! WHAAAA!"
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#260 - 2012-06-01 20:49:16 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Quote:
Of course. Now just like in null sec, the blob can slowly creep across the systems and the damage the other side can do behind enemy lines is greatly reduced.

I don't know about caldari and gallente but in the Amarr minmatar war there are only a few systems that aren't dead. Whereas before we used to be able to roam around throughout and get fights. Now its you either fight the kam/kourm blobs or you have a slow night.


All I heard was, "NO! I DON'T WANNA CHANGE! WHAAAA!"


Its probably true that is all you hear. That is happening because you are reacting emotionally. Your emotional reaction is turning off the rational part of your brain.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815