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First Impression of Faction Warfare -- post inferno patch

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Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#221 - 2012-05-31 18:49:22 UTC
Jones Bones wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Jones Bones wrote:
Cearain wrote:
[quote=X Gallentius]
The only reason being "contiguous" is important is because of the station lockouts. Thanks for agreeing with my point. Amarr can't fight for raa and other non contiguous systems primarilly because of the station lockouts.


I was FCing our fleet that night and this simply is not true. There could have been 20 available stations in Raa and the surrounding systems. We did not have enough pilots online to combat their BC/Logi fleet. This is a perfect example of something Amarr FW needs to work on as a group, making sure systems are not closing to being vulnerable come late USTZ.



I was in a fleet with almity that night. But anyway a system does not flip in one night!


Funny you say that; how much defensive plexing did we do in Raa? I know I did 0. Yet I see plenty of defensive plexers in Lamaa, Sis, Vard, etc. Sometimes war is boredom :P


You weren't part of faction war when we did plexing. Look at our corp forums you will see we had a few nights of plexing. Threads like "lets take arzad" "ships we need in arzad" for plexing another thread called "attention" basically saying lets get out there and plex. You will read about our successes and how we suspected Arzad was bugged. This sort of enthusiasm for plexing and moving ships in that area to take systems all sort of went away when we realized we were bascially going to have to move again. We didn't do much plexing after we knew we would have to move out of Arzad.

http://sovereigntywars.wordpress.com/2012/03/05/the-reclaiming/

But before we started to realize station lock outs were going to lead to us being kicked we did have plexing ops that weren't even on the boards just when we got together and decided we wanted to plex a system. I took part in some of them. And yes I moved ships a few jumps over so I could get in them. I still have a few there.

Its hard for you to evaluate the changes because you were only in faction war after the changes took effect.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#222 - 2012-05-31 18:50:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Jones Bones wrote:
Cearain wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:

The only reason being "contiguous" is important is because of the station lockouts. Thanks for agreeing with my point. Amarr can't fight for raa and other non contiguous systems primarilly because of the station lockouts.
There is an Amarr system next door to Raa with a station. Thanks for proving my point.



What system are you refering to? Perhaps you should read the part of my post you cut out.


Raa is right next door to Amarr high sec bro.



Do you want to base out of high sec?

edit: You should also read the parts of my post that Gallentius cut out.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#223 - 2012-05-31 18:56:02 UTC
Jones Bones wrote:
Cearain wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:

The only reason being "contiguous" is important is because of the station lockouts. Thanks for agreeing with my point. Amarr can't fight for raa and other non contiguous systems primarilly because of the station lockouts.
There is an Amarr system next door to Raa with a station. Thanks for proving my point.

What system are you refering to? Perhaps you should read the part of my post you cut out.

Raa is right next door to Amarr high sec bro.
I think that's what he meant. Apparently it's impossible to reship in high sec Amarr systems since Amarrian Retribution is one of the largest pirate corporations in the game - not to mention those -10 sec status Fweddit guys who happen to base out of Amarr high sec.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#224 - 2012-05-31 18:58:09 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Cearain wrote:


Do you want to base out of high sec?

edit: You should also read the parts of my post that Gallentius cut out.
Did you really want to keep Raa out of Minmatar hands? If so, then you would have based out of Amarr high sec.

Edit: Stupid question, and I apologize. You guys aren't intereested in Occupancy Warfare. You're interested in pvp - not "orbiting buttons".

There's plenty of pvp to go around, so I really don't know what you're complaining about tbh.
Jones Bones
Battle Toad Brigade
Ribbit.
#225 - 2012-05-31 19:04:32 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:


Do you want to base out of high sec?

edit: You should also read the parts of my post that Gallentius cut out.
Did you really want to keep Raa out of Minmatar hands? If so, then you would have based out of Amarr high sec.

Edit: Stupid question, and I apologize. You guys aren't intereested in Occupancy Warfare. You're interested in pvp - not "orbiting buttons".

There's plenty of pvp to go around, so I really don't know what you're complaining about tbh.


It was a complete lack of cohesion on Amarr's part that Raa fell so easily. You'll notice that Said/Oyo are seeing much more fighting and Kamela is pretty much a safe haven. We'll turn this thing. And they will remember us. We fought here alone and gave up our lives, so that this empire should not perish from the earth.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#226 - 2012-05-31 19:08:46 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:


Do you want to base out of high sec?

edit: You should also read the parts of my post that Gallentius cut out.
Did you really want to keep Raa out of Minmatar hands? If so, then you would have based out of Amarr high sec.

Edit: Stupid question, and I apologize. You guys aren't intereested in Occupancy Warfare. You're interested in pvp - not "orbiting buttons".

There's plenty of pvp to go around, so I really don't know what you're complaining about tbh.


Do you know what sec status jones has? What about many in our corp imperial outlaws? Amarr is indeed at a very significant disadvantage if we need to base our operations out of high sec.

Actually I do give the whole station lock out part of the credit for the fights in kamela for this reason. It would be stupid to fight so hard for kamela with Tuomuta sitting right there. However, there are allot of negative sec status pilots in the militia so it made sense.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#227 - 2012-05-31 19:22:21 UTC
Jones Bones wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:


Do you want to base out of high sec?

edit: You should also read the parts of my post that Gallentius cut out.
Did you really want to keep Raa out of Minmatar hands? If so, then you would have based out of Amarr high sec.

Edit: Stupid question, and I apologize. You guys aren't intereested in Occupancy Warfare. You're interested in pvp - not "orbiting buttons".

There's plenty of pvp to go around, so I really don't know what you're complaining about tbh.


It was a complete lack of cohesion on Amarr's part that Raa fell so easily. You'll notice that Said/Oyo are seeing much more fighting and Kamela is pretty much a safe haven. We'll turn this thing. And they will remember us. We fought here alone and gave up our lives, so that this empire should not perish from the earth.



If we weren't kicked out of Arzad there would have been allot more cohesion. Instead allot of the time we had to play before inferno was doing logistics.

You may not realize this because you are new to faction war and ILAW.

But we would have almost certainly put up a fight for raa if ILaw was still based in Arzad. Amarrian retribution likely would have helped in this effort just like flyinghotpocket helped in the blog post I linked above. Would fweddit and Wolfbrigade have helped too? I'm pretty sure they would have. I am certain there would have been fighting.

This station lock out business is crap for pvp.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
LooknSee
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#228 - 2012-05-31 19:47:50 UTC
Cearain wrote:
You may not realize this because you are new to faction war and ILAW.


You don't realize whom you're speaking to shithead. You will address the leader of the Amarr Militia as "Your Grace".
Jones Bones
Battle Toad Brigade
Ribbit.
#229 - 2012-05-31 20:01:11 UTC
LooknSee wrote:
Cearain wrote:
You may not realize this because you are new to faction war and ILAW.


You don't realize whom you're speaking to shithead. You will address the leader of the Amarr Militia as "Your Grace".


Peace be with you my brother, but we are all family here. Whether Brutor or Achura, all are welcome to find peace in the grace of our Mother Amamake and her Empress.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#230 - 2012-05-31 20:17:33 UTC
Cearain wrote:
more stuff
Don't make me pull the plexing VP card!

ok... you made me do it... Imperial Outlaws is nowhere to be found. Big smile

Anyways, if you guys were really interested in Occupancy Warfare, you would move to Kamela / Sahtogas and start your offensive from there. You'd get lots of pew out of it as well. Or, you would plex the "circle of doom" area near Eggelhende pretty hard, and maybe not get many fights until you started making some headway.

The reality is that the people in the Amarr militia interested in Occupancy Warfare (not Cearain, nor Imperial Outlaws) decided Raa was too much of a distraction to worry about at this time. They are starting from Kamela/Sahtogas and working out from there.
Vordak Kallager
Descendance.
GoonSwarm.
#231 - 2012-05-31 20:36:09 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
more stuff
Don't make me pull the plexing VP card!

ok... you made me do it... Imperial Outlaws is nowhere to be found. Big smile

Anyways, if you guys were really interested in Occupancy Warfare, you would move to Kamela / Sahtogas and start your offensive from there. You'd get lots of pew out of it as well. Or, you would plex the "circle of doom" area near Eggelhende pretty hard, and maybe not get many fights until you started making some headway.

The reality is that the people in the Amarr militia interested in Occupancy Warfare (not Cearain, nor Imperial Outlaws) decided Raa was too much of a distraction to worry about at this time. They are starting from Kamela/Sahtogas and working out from there.



I haven't seen I.LAW active in the sov-war at all. Sometimes they run around in a 10 man cruiser fleet, poke at us in Kourmonen and scurry back to Egghelende whenever we actually have a fleet up, but I don't see them in Oyo or Lamaa or anything like that, fighting in the trenches so to speak.

Jones, you should just join Fweddit and whip them into shape with your considerable Pew Pew experience. Honestly, all us Minmatar laugh at Fweddit now, but we all secretly fear the rise of the "Amarr Draketrain" when they are out of their frigates/destroyers and in competently fit battlecruisers and battleships. If there is any one group in Amarr Militia right now that will be relevant to the sovereignty struggle, it isn't W-BR, it isn't I.LAW, its probably not even 7th Fleet. It's Fweddit. It'll just take a few months.

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.
LooknSee
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#232 - 2012-05-31 20:39:41 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:
If there is any one group in Amarr Militia right now that will be relevant to the sovereignty struggle, it isn't W-BR, it isn't I.LAW, its probably not even 7th Fleet. It's Fweddit. It'll just take a few months.


But... do they roleplay?
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#233 - 2012-05-31 20:47:52 UTC
BolsterBomb wrote:
chatgris wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

X Gallentius wrote:
Anyways, 4-5x increase in kills is a bit too much to ignore. ...

True enough .. but how about ratios? Is it "attackers" trying to plex in systems with no possibility of docking, defenders being blobbed or somewhere in the middle?
Numbers without details can be and often are deceiving, in this case they might well mean that permanent lock-out (see the FW Iteration Soon™ thread in F&I for alternatives that are vastly superior to CCPs implementation) resulted in a FW spasms followed by death.


I can give my personal experience:

Pre-inferno, the vast majority of my kills came from pirating. Caldari basically did not exist in my timezone. It go so bad that I moved off to Dudreda to fight eve uni for a while.

Now, I have nights with lots of kills, and *none of them* are due to pirating (I think my last pirate kill was a thorax that was helping a caldari gang in a plex in Eha). Most of those kills occur in plexes, since I can go to an upgraded caldari system with lots of caldari docked, and they give a damn that I'm in a plex (either because I'm taking their LP, or because they don't want to lose the system, or maybe this patch has enough people excited about plexing that there's just more people around), so they usually come out and fight. Or they'll be in a plex trying to get LP, and if the oods look good, they'll often stay and fight.

As for ratios, I'd say it's 50-50 offensive defensive plexes. Last few plex fights I can remember were:

a) 3-5 dessies (depending on who reshipped) vs 8 caldari dessies in Kedama
b) 2 dessies vs caldari: 2x merlin, griffin and thrasher
c) 3 destroyers and a caracal navy issue vs 3 battlecruisers, cruiser, kestrel

There's also been a few bigger fleet fights against caldari...
a) Weekend fight, about a 15 man caldari cruiser gang with t1 logi and bb's in a medium plex, against a larger kitchen sink t1
cruiser gallente force (think about 20)
b) Just last night, 23 destroyers running around nenna vs about 15 destroyers on our side, no plex though.

That's some recent fighting I can think of not going back further than Monday IIRC. This patch has brought a ton of people out of the woodwork into plexing and pvp, and it's fantastic.



Try 12 caldari to 25 gallente chatgris.....that isnt "a bit larger" thats 2x...just saying


I told you AB caracals were a bad idea Big smile
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#234 - 2012-06-01 02:41:06 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Har Harrison wrote:
I've been involved in a few t2/t3 kills, not to mention to odd SFI and Assault Frigs, not to mention various regular BC/cruisers, so pretty sure we aren't seeing JUST t1 stabbed frigs..

It was as with all things on the internet, exaggeration for effect Smile

Sigh...
Since I have been back from my trip (21-05-2012 - just over 10 days)

  • Chimera (non-FW)
  • Loki
  • Apoc Navy Issue (non-FW)
  • Vagabond
  • Brutix x 2
  • SFI x 3
  • Tempest x 2 (non-FW)
  • Hurricane
  • Wolf
  • Ishkur
  • Rupture
  • Arbitrator
  • Thorax
  • Caracal
  • Thrasher x 4
  • Incursus
  • Capsule x 2


I've lost two Ishkurs in this time and a slicer and a vexor

So based on this list, I have not seen any stabbed t1 frigs that we have KILLED or LOST!!!

I'll accept that apology now!!!
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#235 - 2012-06-01 02:44:13 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:

We have good reason to think raa fell without a fight due to station lockouts.
Ignorance is bliss. Raa has no stations, and there's a high sec station next door to Raa that could have been used.

Bottom line: Amarr don't have the personnel right now to spend defending a non-contiguous system (not in the Kamela/Sahtogas pipe) like Raa.

This

We are trying to hold the pipe and extend it rather then save the one isolated system that holds little value.

Again I say

HIT AUGA AND THE OTHER BACKWATER SYSTEMS AND MAKE THE MINNIES REACT TO US FOR ONCE instead of complaining!!!
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#236 - 2012-06-01 02:48:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Har Harrison
X Gallentius wrote:
Jones Bones wrote:
Cearain wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:

The only reason being "contiguous" is important is because of the station lockouts. Thanks for agreeing with my point. Amarr can't fight for raa and other non contiguous systems primarilly because of the station lockouts.
There is an Amarr system next door to Raa with a station. Thanks for proving my point.

What system are you refering to? Perhaps you should read the part of my post you cut out.

Raa is right next door to Amarr high sec bro.
I think that's what he meant. Apparently it's impossible to reship in high sec Amarr systems since Amarrian Retribution is one of the largest pirate corporations in the game - not to mention those -10 sec status Fweddit guys who happen to base out of Amarr high sec.

Hey!!! That's a bit harsh!!! My sec status is positive (just after killing that neutral chimera and navy apoc...) Cool

We're just killing the neutrals in the area to secure our home system in the name of the Empress!!!

Alot of them are neutral boosters, running supplies into the minnie held systems or otherwise known/suspected minnie sympathisers (aka spais!!!)
Har Harrison
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#237 - 2012-06-01 03:07:34 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
more stuff
Don't make me pull the plexing VP card!

ok... you made me do it... Imperial Outlaws is nowhere to be found. Big smile

Anyways, if you guys were really interested in Occupancy Warfare, you would move to Kamela / Sahtogas and start your offensive from there. You'd get lots of pew out of it as well. Or, you would plex the "circle of doom" area near Eggelhende pretty hard, and maybe not get many fights until you started making some headway.

The reality is that the people in the Amarr militia interested in Occupancy Warfare (not Cearain, nor Imperial Outlaws) decided Raa was too much of a distraction to worry about at this time. They are starting from Kamela/Sahtogas and working out from there.


This^^^^

Caerain - you have done nothing but ***** about changes that many of us are ok with (apart from the fact CCP could have been a little more balanced in how they implemented it - i.e. balance NPCs and change VP payouts in Escalation vs not doing it yet and doing it in Inferno).

Get into a ship, and go plex for a few days, like the rest of us are and get some fights as and when they come.

The changes have given us frontlines which both sides are now pushing hard to extend/hold. Get on them (hint - base in saht or kamela). Or open up a THIRD front in Auga and the surrounds by basing out of Egg and accept that you will have to plex to make the minnies react. We wanted consequences in FW and we got some. Now use that fact and make the minnies choose to keep pushing saht/kam OR defend some of their backwater. All I am hearing is that your corp has no interest in helping the militia... Jones on the other hand, makes me think that some in your corp DO want to help.

Incidently, the reason so many wanted to hold Kamela vs going to high sec is
1) they didn't want to lose another system (we have some pride)
2) they have substantial assets (i.e. caps) that they cannot relocate to high sec (no friendly GMs around unfortunately!!!)
3) some cannot due to sec status, but to say that is the only reason is unfair

I will not sacrifice the Kamela and Sahtogas. We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats. They invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, and no farther! And I will make them pay for what they've done!
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#238 - 2012-06-01 16:17:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Har Harrison wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:
more stuff
Don't make me pull the plexing VP card!

ok... you made me do it... Imperial Outlaws is nowhere to be found. Big smile

Anyways, if you guys were really interested in Occupancy Warfare, you would move to Kamela / Sahtogas and start your offensive from there. You'd get lots of pew out of it as well. Or, you would plex the "circle of doom" area near Eggelhende pretty hard, and maybe not get many fights until you started making some headway.

The reality is that the people in the Amarr militia interested in Occupancy Warfare (not Cearain, nor Imperial Outlaws) decided Raa was too much of a distraction to worry about at this time. They are starting from Kamela/Sahtogas and working out from there.


This^^^^

Caerain - you have done nothing but ***** about changes that many of us are ok with (apart from the fact CCP could have been a little more balanced in how they implemented it - i.e. balance NPCs and change VP payouts in Escalation vs not doing it yet and doing it in Inferno).

Get into a ship, and go plex for a few days, like the rest of us are and get some fights as and when they come.

The changes have given us frontlines which both sides are now pushing hard to extend/hold. Get on them (hint - base in saht or kamela). Or open up a THIRD front in Auga and the surrounds by basing out of Egg and accept that you will have to plex to make the minnies react. We wanted consequences in FW and we got some. Now use that fact and make the minnies choose to keep pushing saht/kam OR defend some of their backwater. All I am hearing is that your corp has no interest in helping the militia... Jones on the other hand, makes me think that some in your corp DO want to help.

Incidently, the reason so many wanted to hold Kamela vs going to high sec is
1) they didn't want to lose another system (we have some pride)
2) they have substantial assets (i.e. caps) that they cannot relocate to high sec (no friendly GMs around unfortunately!!!)
3) some cannot due to sec status, but to say that is the only reason is unfair

I will not sacrifice the Kamela and Sahtogas. We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats. They invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, and no farther! And I will make them pay for what they've done!



I don't see XGallentius on the chart for most vp in the last week either. I guess he is too busy with pvp. P

Also I'm not sure how the chart works but the number of kills for a week seems low. I thought everyone could get 20 kills a night.

I do plex. No I am not online 23/7 like some where I am going to make the charts but when I play I do plex. That is why I am pissed about the station lock outs.

I could get fights using plexing just as well before the changes if not better because I had ships throughout the zone that I could hop into. If I am in a destroyer and someone was in a medium I could hop in a cruiser nearby. If my tank started to take damage from the rats I could dock and repair so that if a wt came in I could fight him instead of run.

I run plexes in Dal Auga Kourm and Huola because they tend to have the most wartargets in system. There is not increase in the number of fights I am getting there. There is no reason that they have to stop me from plexing until the system hits something lik 70% constested.

I will plex and then the next day the work I did was gone. So I will plex again with the rats and the next day the work is gone. With this system there are no greater number of fights except in a few isolated systems and then its just large fleets. (I won't say blobs because they are ship restricted and I like the big fights too.) I like those large fleet fights too but I am not always on line to be in them. Over the course of say 40 hours of play I would rather have 140 fights spread out over that time where 1-5 ships explode instead of having to wait 40 hours and then there is one big fight where 1000 ships explode.

If I wanted the latter I would have joined null sec.

Edit: BTW I have not just bitched about the changes. I have stated that I like allot of the changes. The station lock out has not been defended by anyone in any sensible way. Other than post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacious reasoning.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Princess Nexxala
Zero Syndicate
#239 - 2012-06-01 16:28:36 UTC
RL vacation i think

Cearain wrote:


I don't see XGallentius on the chart for most vp in the last week either. I guess he is too busy with pvp. P


nom nom
Princess Nexxala
Zero Syndicate
#240 - 2012-06-01 16:32:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Princess Nexxala
Not 100% certain but I think it only counts final blow and only if the victim is FW

Cearain wrote:

Also I'm not sure how the chart works but the number of kills for a week seems low. I thought everyone could get 20 kills a night.

nom nom