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Is the penalty for suicide-ganking too high?
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Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
#41 - 2012-05-31 05:27:59 UTC
Ganking isn't as easy as one may think. Don't forget the victim only sees the epitome of the gank; that final 10 seconds climax of work the ganker had to do. One mistake, and the gank will fail.

A successful gank takes a good amount of preparation, scouting, logistics and tactical positioning. On top of that there are factors which the ganker can never be 100% sure of such as skills trained.

The "art" of ganking relies on figuring out the cheapest setup(s) for the gank.

Ganking actually takes more work than gate camping, unless you plan to overkill. The best gankers do not overkill and are ready to get the occasional failed gank.
Hrothgar Nilsson
#42 - 2012-05-31 05:34:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrothgar Nilsson
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Imposing stiffer penalties doesn't really do much to lower crime rates. But ultimately it's all dumb logic because you are thinking in real life terms. This is a game: The only risk at any point in time ever to me as a PVP/GANK/SUPERGRIEFER pilot is that my time is wasted, assuming that's what my goals are (They aren't, I play eve for the Empire building and the giant space battles like in starwars only with slightly worse art design).

A great example would be the Burn Jita freighter interdiction: A lot of people thought we were making money off of that.

We weren't. Oh a few goons may have become independently wealthy from it due to market speculation and scooping the right thing at the right time, but as an alliance, it cost a lot more money than it brought in. The net payout to the organization was in entertainment. The fleets that came to fight us were fun, the freighters that came to blow up were also fun.

So when factoring in your equations don't forget to also toss in entertainment value for the person perpetuating the deed.

I wasn't making a judgment call on the act of suicide ganking.

And when I spoke of cost/benefit analysis, I didn't mean to imply solely in ISK terms. The cost and benefit can be anything.

I plan to fork over $15 to go see Prometheus next week for entertainment. There's a cost ($15) and a benefit (entertainment).

The concept of labor/leisure trade-off is pretty basic, I recall going over it in Econ 1101.

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#43 - 2012-05-31 05:37:16 UTC
Mcpewy wrote:


Acutally no i don't know how a ganker does his thing, i don't do it. I know i can right click a orca open ship hanger and hit board ship on one of the ships and the ship pops out and i get in it. So yeah i know how a orca works but i don't know how you guys gank. Did not think about jetting the ship out so i admit was a bad idea. I know mechanics but not how the the gankers do thier thing.


You were confused about the simplest HS aggression mechanics. You don't know about the mechanics of the space you live in.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-05-31 05:47:37 UTC
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
The ganker loses a ship & it's mods, whatever resides in the cargohold, sec status, gains a 15 minute GCC timer, can be shot by anyone for the duration & receives no insurance payout. Can you really say the penalties are too low?

Yet all of those negatives are of little to no consequence to the ganker.

Taking all of those into consideration, the ganker has made a cost/benefit analysis and made a conscious decision that their course of action is of greater benefit than cost to them.

If the ganker had any regard for the ship they were flying, their security status, GCC timer, no insurance payout, then...

They wouldn't do it.


So what you're saying is a miner does not make the same cost/benefit analysis because they have no regard for the ship they're flying? That explains a lot.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Hrothgar Nilsson
#45 - 2012-05-31 05:52:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrothgar Nilsson
Actually, if you re-read my post, I didn't say anything about miners, nor did I mean to imply anything with regards to miners.

read into [riːd]
vb
(tr, preposition) to discern in or infer from a statement (meanings not intended by the speaker or writer)
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/read+into

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#46 - 2012-05-31 05:59:19 UTC
People get very confused about the concept of risk.

When people are talking about how carebears are risk averse they are talking about how a carebear is averse to the risk of loss. The same concept doesn't apply to gankers because in their situation the same loss the potential for which a carebear is averse to is an inherent part of what the ganker is doing, they accept that the loss is going to happen and decide whether or not they are going to try and gank a potential target based on how likely they think they are to succeed and how badly they want the target dead, the risk is the potential waste of resources and opportunity in the entirely likely event of failure.

Talking about risk by comparing suicide ganking as an activity to a moron in a faction fitted BS accepting a L4 in lowsec is moronic because even a child could tell you that the one individual is actively worried about avoiding a loss and the other has accepted loss as a given and will subsequently have totally different concepts of what constitutes an undesirable outcome.
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#47 - 2012-05-31 06:03:26 UTC
Put an end to suicide ganking, CCP!

Remove this silly sec status thing, get rid of concord and everybody will be just fine.

Remove standings and insurance.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#48 - 2012-05-31 06:05:49 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Many posts are appearing of late asking if the penalty for suicide-ganking is too low. From the gankees point of view, it probably is. They lost a ship. I will now put to you the other side of the argument.
Suicide-gankers blow people up for many reasons. It may be for profit, in response to a player event or in many cases, they do it simply because it's fun[ny]. Now lets talk about penalties.

The gankee loses a ship & it's mods, plus whatever else resides in the cargohold.
The ganker loses a ship & it's mods, whatever resides in the cargohold, sec status, gains a 15 minute GCC timer, can be shot by anyone for the duration & receives no insurance payout. Can you really say the penalties are too low?


Eve is supposed to be cold and heartless as per mittens and his rants on ten ton hammer

Therefore, the cost to gankers is not high enough.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#49 - 2012-05-31 06:15:11 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Many posts are appearing of late asking if the penalty for suicide-ganking is too low. From the gankees point of view, it probably is. They lost a ship. I will now put to you the other side of the argument.
Suicide-gankers blow people up for many reasons. It may be for profit, in response to a player event or in many cases, they do it simply because it's fun[ny]. Now lets talk about penalties.

The gankee loses a ship & it's mods, plus whatever else resides in the cargohold.
The ganker loses a ship & it's mods, whatever resides in the cargohold, sec status, gains a 15 minute GCC timer, can be shot by anyone for the duration & receives no insurance payout. Can you really say the penalties are too low?


Eve is supposed to be cold and heartless as per mittens and his rants on ten ton hammer

Therefore, the cost to gankers is not high enough.


This is a matter of penalties, not cost.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Josef Djugashvilis
#50 - 2012-05-31 06:16:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Josef Djugashvilis
Whilst I have no issue with ganking, (this is Eve after all) I would suggest that if player numbers do really drop due to ganking, then CCP will feel under pressure to do something about it.

Of course, the problem CCP may well then face, is that those who favour ganking might quit in protest.

CCP could well find themselves caught between a rock and a hard place.


Interesting times.

This is not a signature.
Hrothgar Nilsson
#51 - 2012-05-31 06:17:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrothgar Nilsson
Quote:
This is a matter of penalties, not cost.

A penalty is a type of cost.

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#52 - 2012-05-31 06:22:47 UTC
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
Quote:
This is a matter of penalties, not cost.

A penalty is a type of cost.



penalty
[pen-l-tee]

1.
a punishment imposed or incurred for a violation of law or rule.

2.
a loss, forfeiture, suffering, or the like, to which one subjects oneself by nonfulfillment of some obligation.

3.
a disadvantage imposed upon one of the competitors or upon one side for infraction of the rules of a game, sport, etc.

4.
consequence or disadvantage attached to any action, condition, etc.

See what I did there?

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Hrothgar Nilsson
#53 - 2012-05-31 06:27:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrothgar Nilsson
And a penalty, by definition, is a type of cost. Like an orange is a fruit, or a dog is a mammal, or the Sun is a star.

Quote:
cost (kôst):

n.
2. The expenditure of something, such as time or labor, necessary for the attainment of a goal.
It was necessary for Hank to expend hard-earned security standing to attain his goal of suicide ganking that ship.

v.intr.
To require a specified payment, expenditure, effort, or loss.
By suicide ganking, Hank will lose security standing.

v.tr.
2. To cause to lose, suffer, or sacrifice.
The act of suicide ganking cost Hank 0.1 points of security standing.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cost


Quote:
Main Entry: penalty  [pen-l-tee] Show IPA
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: punishment
Synonyms: amends, amercement, cost, damages, disadvantage, discipline, dues, fall, fine, forfeit, forfeiture, handicap, mortification, mulct, price, rap, retribution

http://thesaurus.com/browse/penalty?s=t

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#54 - 2012-05-31 06:33:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
And a penalty, by definition, is a type of cost. Like an orange is a fruit, or a dog is a mammal, or the Sun is a star.

Quote:
cost (kôst):

n.
2. The expenditure of something, such as time or labor, necessary for the attainment of a goal.

v.intr.
To require a specified payment, expenditure, effort, or loss.

v.tr.
2. To cause to lose, suffer, or sacrifice.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cost


Quote:
Main Entry: penalty  [pen-l-tee] Show IPA
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: punishment
Synonyms: amends, amercement, cost, damages, disadvantage, discipline, dues, fall, fine, forfeit, forfeiture, handicap, mortification, mulct, price, rap, retribution

http://thesaurus.com/browse/penalty?s=t


Can be* a type of cost, but not always. As just proven by your skills with a dictionary.
This thread is not referring to the cost of suicide ganking, but the penalties.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Hrothgar Nilsson
#55 - 2012-05-31 06:38:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrothgar Nilsson
What you mean to say, is that this thread isn't about monetary (i.e. ISK) expenditure.

Penalties and monetary expenditure, are both costs.

For example:

That drunken hookup with that sorority girl cost me my marriage.

My divorce cost me the house, my convertible, and my credit rating.

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#56 - 2012-05-31 06:52:19 UTC
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
That drunken hookup with that sorority girl cost me my marriage.

My divorce cost me the house, my convertible, and my credit rating.


I hope she was worth it.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Hrothgar Nilsson
#57 - 2012-05-31 06:56:21 UTC
Hooked up with many-a-sorority girl, never been married, fortunately.

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#58 - 2012-05-31 06:58:09 UTC
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
Hooked up with many-a-sorority girl, never been married, fortunately.


I've never been married either, but it's looking like gay marriage will be legalised in my country soon, so that will probably change.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#59 - 2012-05-31 06:59:54 UTC
Thor Kerrigan wrote:
The "art" of ganking.


Thor Kerrigan's "The Art of Ganking".

You should write a guide :)

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
pussnheels
Viziam
#60 - 2012-05-31 07:11:19 UTC  |  Edited by: pussnheels
The main problem in this whole debate seems to be that there is little or no control on the recycling of characters because their security status is to low
EULA clearly states that the repeated recycling of characters due to low security status is seen as a exploit by ccp
It only takes a relative short time to train for a dedicated suicide pilot even so shorter than trying to recover your security status thru grinding belt rats in low or 0.0 sec, second also takes effort something these griefers tend to avoid at all cost , effort

CCP been so transfixed on finding rmt traders and bots , rightly so, that they have little or norescources left to check all the characters being recycled

so ppeople are fully abusing the recycling of characters who s sec status be ame so low due to suicideganking that they can t even enter high sec anymore

Better and more control will go a long way

I do not agree with what you are saying , but i will defend to the death your right to say it...... Voltaire