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Is the penalty for suicide-ganking too high?
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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-05-31 02:00:35 UTC
Bootleg Jack wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Many posts are appearing of late asking if the penalty for suicide-ganking is too low. From the gankees point of view, it probably is. They lost a ship. I will now put to you the other side of the argument.
Suicide-gankers blow people up for many reasons. It may be for profit, in response to a player event or in many cases, they do it simply because it's fun[ny]. Now lets talk about penalties.

The gankee loses a ship & it's mods, plus whatever else resides in the cargohold.
The ganker loses a ship & it's mods, whatever resides in the cargohold, sec status, gains a 15 minute GCC timer & can be shot by anyone for the duration. Can you really say the penalties are too low?


You suicide gank with cargo and mods?? Shocked

Seriously, if you are at -10 and you get your ships from a corp orca the risk is what again?

Z
E
R
O


There is always something in the cargo, even if it's only air. It's also pretty hard to gank without having any guns on your ship. Even at -10, you still lose a ship, you still lose the mods & there is the ever present chance of failure. The risk will never be zero.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#22 - 2012-05-31 02:05:56 UTC
Bootleg Jack wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Many posts are appearing of late asking if the penalty for suicide-ganking is too low. From the gankees point of view, it probably is. They lost a ship. I will now put to you the other side of the argument.
Suicide-gankers blow people up for many reasons. It may be for profit, in response to a player event or in many cases, they do it simply because it's fun[ny]. Now lets talk about penalties.

The gankee loses a ship & it's mods, plus whatever else resides in the cargohold.
The ganker loses a ship & it's mods, whatever resides in the cargohold, sec status, gains a 15 minute GCC timer & can be shot by anyone for the duration. Can you really say the penalties are too low?


You suicide gank with cargo and mods?? Shocked

Seriously, if you are at -10 and you get your ships from a corp orca the risk is what again?

Z
E
R
O


Aside from Suicide Ganking (which you want banned), what is the risk to a miner?

Z is for Z, the last letter in the alphabet
E is for EHP
R is roaming around and ganking Hulks
O is for OMG... tears

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-05-31 03:03:51 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Bootleg Jack wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Many posts are appearing of late asking if the penalty for suicide-ganking is too low. From the gankees point of view, it probably is. They lost a ship. I will now put to you the other side of the argument.
Suicide-gankers blow people up for many reasons. It may be for profit, in response to a player event or in many cases, they do it simply because it's fun[ny]. Now lets talk about penalties.

The gankee loses a ship & it's mods, plus whatever else resides in the cargohold.
The ganker loses a ship & it's mods, whatever resides in the cargohold, sec status, gains a 15 minute GCC timer & can be shot by anyone for the duration. Can you really say the penalties are too low?


You suicide gank with cargo and mods?? Shocked

Seriously, if you are at -10 and you get your ships from a corp orca the risk is what again?

Z
E
R
O


Aside from Suicide Ganking (which you want banned), what is the risk to a miner?

Z is for Z, the last letter in the alphabet
E is for EHP
R is roaming around and ganking Hulks
O is for OMG... tears


I could offer a compromise for that aswell. If suicide-ganking were to be banned (will never happen, deal with it), mining should also be banned.

One can always find a happy ending :)

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#24 - 2012-05-31 03:06:12 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Bootleg Jack wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Many posts are appearing of late asking if the penalty for suicide-ganking is too low. From the gankees point of view, it probably is. They lost a ship. I will now put to you the other side of the argument.
Suicide-gankers blow people up for many reasons. It may be for profit, in response to a player event or in many cases, they do it simply because it's fun[ny]. Now lets talk about penalties.

The gankee loses a ship & it's mods, plus whatever else resides in the cargohold.
The ganker loses a ship & it's mods, whatever resides in the cargohold, sec status, gains a 15 minute GCC timer & can be shot by anyone for the duration. Can you really say the penalties are too low?


You suicide gank with cargo and mods?? Shocked

Seriously, if you are at -10 and you get your ships from a corp orca the risk is what again?

Z
E
R
O


Aside from Suicide Ganking (which you want banned), what is the risk to a miner?

Z is for Z, the last letter in the alphabet
E is for EHP
R is roaming around and ganking Hulks
O is for OMG... tears


I could offer a compromise for that aswell. If suicide-ganking were to be banned (will never happen, deal with it), mining should also be banned.

One can always find a happy ending :)


Mining is a good thing in this game. I see no reason for it to be banned.

Gankers aren't calling for miners to be banned, we're calling for miners to put some slight effort into their gameplay.

The mining whiners are the only ones calling for anyone's playstyle to be nerfed or banned.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
bongsmoke
Visine Red
420 Chronicles of EvE
#25 - 2012-05-31 03:07:02 UTC  |  Edited by: bongsmoke
I dont care about this thread or what anyone says in the thread, I have no opinion.

I just wanted to post, I can't believe your not a goon.

Edit: @OP
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#26 - 2012-05-31 03:23:38 UTC
bongsmoke wrote:
I dont care about this thread or what anyone says in the thread, I have no opinion.

I just wanted to post, I can't believe it's not butter.

Edit: @OP


Maybe it is?

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Jayrendo Karr
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#27 - 2012-05-31 04:12:03 UTC
GCC should include podding for agressive actions (not can flipping etc)
Hammer Crendraven
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2012-05-31 04:38:23 UTC
Juess wrote:
Hammer Crendraven wrote:
James 315 wrote:
The security status penalties for suicide ganking are too high. They were more reasonable before (one of) the suicide ganking nerfs for which the carebears bleated so much. Since ratting for security status is one of the worst activities in EVE, it shouldn't require so much to repair one's security status. Fortunately many gankers are able to operate even with -10 status, but that doesn't excuse the flawed mechanic.


I tend to agree the flawed mechanic is that negative sec status is an attempt to keep them out which is not working either.

I would rather have a stand your ground rule to allow high sec players to defend themselves from gankers rather than a pathetic attempt to keep them out. But alas I have no idea how to make such a law or rule or mechanic work. I was thinking about a pretimer like the GCC timer but it counts down and the ganker can not attack until the timer runs out. During that 15 minute window the ganker(s) are legal targets in high sec. But that is too cumbersome and would not work well at all either.
If you saw a target at a gate how could you track it for 15 minutes while your timer wound down? No not a good way at all.
Like I said no idea how to make this work.

What a sideways argument completely off the mark.


But you like it sideways...
Danel Tosh
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2012-05-31 04:42:07 UTC
in Answer to Your Question, No.
Mcpewy
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-05-31 04:47:29 UTC
Anyone aiding a pirate gets gcc. If a pirate takes a ship out of an orca it can be attacked just like the pirate can be. No warping to gates or docking for 15 minutes. Just like a remote repper gets in trouble so should a orca for suppling the ship to a pirate.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#31 - 2012-05-31 04:50:48 UTC
Mcpewy wrote:
Anyone aiding a pirate gets gcc. If a pirate takes a ship out of an orca it can be attacked just like the pirate can be. No warping to gates or docking for 15 minutes. Just like a remote repper gets in trouble so should a orca for suppling the ship to a pirate.


GCC in HS = Concord. Do you really want to be CONCORDED every time you spit your Hulk out of your Orca?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Large Marg
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2012-05-31 04:55:08 UTC
Total sandbox mmo, CCP will do nothing.

Other side is new players that have little ISK get a new mining ship.

*GANKED* and now they are distressed and quit Eve.

Eve already has issue with low numbers of new users.

So basically YES is fun to gank and pop ships, down side is without new players and ganked players leaving, Eve slowly withers and dies.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#33 - 2012-05-31 04:56:39 UTC
Large Marg wrote:
Total sandbox mmo, CCP will do nothing.

Other side is new players that have little ISK get a new mining ship.

*GANKED* and now they are distressed and quit Eve.

Eve already has issue with low numbers of new users.

So basically YES is fun to gank and pop ships, down side is without new players and ganked players leaving, Eve slowly withers and dies.


If you're flying a Hulk you are not a new player.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mcpewy
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2012-05-31 05:01:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Mcpewy
RubyPorto wrote:
Mcpewy wrote:
Anyone aiding a pirate gets gcc. If a pirate takes a ship out of an orca it can be attacked just like the pirate can be. No warping to gates or docking for 15 minutes. Just like a remote repper gets in trouble so should a orca for suppling the ship to a pirate.


GCC in HS = Concord. Do you really want to be CONCORDED every time you spit your Hulk out of your Orca?



I said same mechanic as a remote rep. If a remote repper reps a pirate what happens? It wont affect me cause i won't be aiding a pirate. Whatever no concord just able to be attacked for 15 minutes and 1 minute or 30 seconds of no docking can't remember timer of agressing on station. Mind is on low sec lol.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#35 - 2012-05-31 05:06:59 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Mcpewy wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Mcpewy wrote:
Anyone aiding a pirate gets gcc. If a pirate takes a ship out of an orca it can be attacked just like the pirate can be. No warping to gates or docking for 15 minutes. Just like a remote repper gets in trouble so should a orca for suppling the ship to a pirate.


GCC in HS = Concord. Do you really want to be CONCORDED every time you spit your Hulk out of your Orca?



I said same mechanic as a remote rep. If a remote repper reps a pirate what happens? It wont affect me cause i won't be aiding a pirate. Whatever no concord just able to be attacked for 15 minutes. Mind is on low sec lol.


Repping an Outlaw gives you an aggression timer for 15m. It doesn't stop you from warping or docking, it just lets anyone shoot you in the next 15m. Since gankers jet the destroyers at safespots, this would have no effect.

Repping someone who's GCC gets you GCC and thus Concorded.

All of that is moot since nobody actually has to board the ship from the hangar. The orca can just jettison the destroyer, then the ganker board it.

Either the Orca gets a criminal aggro timer every time it jettisons a ship (meaning anyone can tackle and kill your orca if you jet a hulk), or your proposal will not affect gankers at all (it won't either way, but the first one at least gives the ganker's orca an aggro timer)


Are Miners in HS really this clueless about the mechanics of the game they play?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Hrothgar Nilsson
#36 - 2012-05-31 05:10:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrothgar Nilsson
Mallak Azaria wrote:
The ganker loses a ship & it's mods, whatever resides in the cargohold, sec status, gains a 15 minute GCC timer, can be shot by anyone for the duration & receives no insurance payout. Can you really say the penalties are too low?

Yet all of those negatives are of little to no consequence to the ganker.

Taking all of those into consideration, the ganker has made a cost/benefit analysis and made a conscious decision that their course of action is of greater benefit than cost to them.

If the ganker had any regard for the ship they were flying, their security status, GCC timer, no insurance payout, then...

They wouldn't do it.

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#37 - 2012-05-31 05:17:23 UTC
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
The ganker loses a ship & it's mods, whatever resides in the cargohold, sec status, gains a 15 minute GCC timer, can be shot by anyone for the duration & receives no insurance payout. Can you really say the penalties are too low?

Yet all of those negatives are of little to no consequence to the ganker.

Taking all of those into consideration, the ganker has made a cost/benefit analysis and made a conscious decision that their course of action is of greater benefit than cost to them.


Then Hulk pilots should probably do their cost/benefit analysis and decide if mining in untanked, max yield hulks is of greater benefit that the cost (value of ship/chance of gank) to them.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#38 - 2012-05-31 05:17:26 UTC
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
The ganker loses a ship & it's mods, whatever resides in the cargohold, sec status, gains a 15 minute GCC timer, can be shot by anyone for the duration & receives no insurance payout. Can you really say the penalties are too low?

Yet all of those negatives are of no to little consequence to the ganker.

If the ganker had any regard for the ship they were flying, their security status, GCC timer, no insurance payout, then...

They wouldn't do it.

Taking all of those into consideration, the ganker has made a cost/benefit analysis and made a conscious decision that their course of action is of greater benefit than cost to them.


Imposing stiffer penalties doesn't really do much to lower crime rates. But ultimately it's all dumb logic because you are thinking in real life terms. This is a game: The only risk at any point in time ever to me as a PVP/GANK/SUPERGRIEFER pilot is that my time is wasted, assuming that's what my goals are (They aren't, I play eve for the Empire building and the giant space battles like in starwars only with slightly worse art design).

A great example would be the Burn Jita freighter interdiction: A lot of people thought we were making money off of that.

We weren't. Oh a few goons may have become independently wealthy from it due to market speculation and scooping the right thing at the right time, but as an alliance, it cost a lot more money than it brought in. The net payout to the organization was in entertainment. The fleets that came to fight us were fun, the freighters that came to blow up were also fun.

So when factoring in your equations don't forget to also toss in entertainment value for the person perpetuating the deed.
Mcpewy
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2012-05-31 05:26:22 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Mcpewy wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Mcpewy wrote:
Anyone aiding a pirate gets gcc. If a pirate takes a ship out of an orca it can be attacked just like the pirate can be. No warping to gates or docking for 15 minutes. Just like a remote repper gets in trouble so should a orca for suppling the ship to a pirate.


GCC in HS = Concord. Do you really want to be CONCORDED every time you spit your Hulk out of your Orca?



I said same mechanic as a remote rep. If a remote repper reps a pirate what happens? It wont affect me cause i won't be aiding a pirate. Whatever no concord just able to be attacked for 15 minutes. Mind is on low sec lol.


Repping an Outlaw gives you an aggression timer for 15m. It doesn't stop you from warping or docking, it just lets anyone shoot you in the next 15m. Since gankers jet the destroyers at safespots, this would have no effect.

Repping someone who's GCC gets you GCC and thus Concorded.

All of that is moot since nobody actually has to board the ship from the hangar. The orca can just jettison the destroyer, then the ganker board it.

Either the Orca gets a criminal aggro timer every time it jettisons a ship (meaning anyone can tackle and kill your orca if you jet a hulk), or your proposal will not affect gankers at all (it won't either way, but the first one at least gives the ganker's orca an aggro timer)


Are Miners in HS really this clueless about the mechanics of the game they play?


Acutally no i don't know how a ganker does his thing, i don't do it. I know i can right click a orca open ship hanger and hit board ship on one of the ships and the ship pops out and i get in it. So yeah i know how a orca works but i don't know how you guys gank. Did not think about jetting the ship out so i admit was a bad idea. I know mechanics but not how the the gankers do thier thing.
Lexmana
#40 - 2012-05-31 05:27:08 UTC
Hrothgar Nilsson wrote:
Taking all of those into consideration, the ganker has made a cost/benefit analysis and made a conscious decision that their course of action is of greater benefit than cost to them..

This is what makes a ganker a higher being than a miner. If the miner could learn to do the same he would evolve. But there is little proof such thing is even possible.