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Can Flipping: The state of Property

Author
Koreli Stelios
Mining Manufacture and Muling
#21 - 2012-05-29 14:18:07 UTC
Really, i don't see as it should make that greater difference in most areas. Its just about saying "we have already recognized this was just stolen from you and now we recognize your free to take it back if they now choose to leave it laying about"

As I've said at most Tags would only need to track entire stacks not individual items that make them up. and these could only be applied to stacks at the point of theft, so reducing greatly the amount of tracking needed at any one time. But also this is just a base idea to get across the concept of ownership recognition. Perhaps as Yonis suggested it is a can should just be recognized off the bat as abandoned. So of course while people would be free to take the items if they moved it to their own can you would be free to take it back and thus no extra database load but also no retribution for taking back what you worked for hours for.
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
The Revenant Order
#22 - 2012-05-29 17:31:46 UTC
And lookie here, another thread full of carebear emo-rage. Looks like I need to get a couple more Catalysts and Thrashers sold for the good of the cluster.

Hey, at least they're just stealing your **** and not violencing your boat a la suicide gank. And to be honest, they're "mining" more efficiently than you are, as they're having you do all of the grunt work for them, meanwhile, they can just haul it away.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#23 - 2012-05-29 20:30:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Go the other way. How do you know it's yours? It's in your possession. It's not? Whoops, it must not be yours anymore.

Can flipping is annoying because EVE offers just enough of a fig-leaf implementation of "property" to make new players think that it actually knows what "property" is in a real-world sense. Might as well just jetcan the whole idea and fall back on a simple, intuitive rule. It's yours if you have it. If you want to keep it, protect it, or take your chances.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Koreli Stelios
Mining Manufacture and Muling
#24 - 2012-05-29 23:55:56 UTC
This isn't Carebear Emo-rage lol. I'm not enraged, leave the house to often and enjoy life to much, and want PvP.

No this is just an Idea, Something i feel would still provide PvP opportunities in high sec. But they would have more "Balance". Balance being that thing that is strictly adhered to where fighter v fighter is concerned cos all you Pew Pew guys QQ if you don't think your gun does quite so much DPS as the next race and what ever.

And besides I've already said if the consensus is that people cant have the guts to fight a fair fight and they are set on massaging their egos and making themselves feel big cos they can one shot the little guys in high sec that's fine, ill accept it and play with that in mind.

But i just thought no harm in bringing it to the table and hoped i might actually get a few more constructive intelligent answers whether it be in support or against the idea.
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2012-05-30 01:44:20 UTC
Koreli Stelios wrote:
This isn't Carebear Emo-rage lol. I'm not enraged, leave the house to often and enjoy life to much, and want PvP.

No this is just an Idea, Something i feel would still provide PvP opportunities in high sec. But they would have more "Balance". Balance being that thing that is strictly adhered to where fighter v fighter is concerned cos all you Pew Pew guys QQ if you don't think your gun does quite so much DPS as the next race and what ever.

And besides I've already said if the consensus is that people cant have the guts to fight a fair fight and they are set on massaging their egos and making themselves feel big cos they can one shot the little guys in high sec that's fine, ill accept it and play with that in mind.

But i just thought no harm in bringing it to the table and hoped i might actually get a few more constructive intelligent answers whether it be in support or against the idea.


The concept of a fair fight does not belong in EVE Online.

Get that clear...because this is not the place for "fairness"

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Arduemont
The State of War.
#26 - 2012-05-30 17:35:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Arduemont
I haven't read the whole text because there is an obvious problem here from the start.

If you change this, whats to stop the can flippers from turning up with ore in their cargo hold and then just putting it in? Its still stealing if you take it. At the moment they are just avoiding carrying it in their hold. But if you make this change the only thing you will do is make can flippers go - "Damn, now I have to carry ten or so veldspar in my cargohold, what a pain!", and then they'll carry on as normal. You wont have stopped anything.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf

Koreli Stelios
Mining Manufacture and Muling
#27 - 2012-05-30 21:50:22 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
I haven't read the whole text because there is an obvious problem here from the start.

If you change this, whats to stop the can flippers from turning up with ore in their cargo hold and then just putting it in? Its still stealing if you take it. At the moment they are just avoiding carrying it in their hold. But if you make this change the only thing you will do is make can flippers go - "Damn, now I have to carry ten or so veldspar in my cargohold, what a pain!", and then they'll carry on as normal. You wont have stopped anything.


Finally its nice to see a good point and thank you.

Now my initial response would be, assuming my point of recognizing ownership and such, any stolen stacks would not mix with other stacks of the same item. There by preventing what you suggest.

However i realize this makes the whole system more and more complicated to keep dividing things up. Yet there is still the idea of simply making Jet-cans be treated as abandoned off the cuff from the moment they are created. I don't see as this would create any great change to weather people would try to steal from Jet-cans or not. Ill be honest on a previous character i intended to play as a pirate i used a hauler to smash and grab miners cans knowing it wasn't likely they would harm me. i just let the countdown end while i sell off their ore. But what it would mean is that this would have to be the sort of methods used. Thievery would have to be thievery, for to simply move it to your own can would allow the miner to grab their hauler and take it back.

So while the method for achieving the goal here is different the premise of what it does is still the same and over all jet cans would still be used in much the same ways as they are now: For quick transfer of items with little risk between players or as storage with high risk of theft.
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2012-05-30 22:24:50 UTC
Koreli Stelios wrote:
Arduemont wrote:
I haven't read the whole text because there is an obvious problem here from the start.

If you change this, whats to stop the can flippers from turning up with ore in their cargo hold and then just putting it in? Its still stealing if you take it. At the moment they are just avoiding carrying it in their hold. But if you make this change the only thing you will do is make can flippers go - "Damn, now I have to carry ten or so veldspar in my cargohold, what a pain!", and then they'll carry on as normal. You wont have stopped anything.


Finally its nice to see a good point and thank you.

Now my initial response would be, assuming my point of recognizing ownership and such, any stolen stacks would not mix with other stacks of the same item. There by preventing what you suggest.

However i realize this makes the whole system more and more complicated to keep dividing things up. Yet there is still the idea of simply making Jet-cans be treated as abandoned off the cuff from the moment they are created. I don't see as this would create any great change to weather people would try to steal from Jet-cans or not. Ill be honest on a previous character i intended to play as a pirate i used a hauler to smash and grab miners cans knowing it wasn't likely they would harm me. i just let the countdown end while i sell off their ore. But what it would mean is that this would have to be the sort of methods used. Thievery would have to be thievery, for to simply move it to your own can would allow the miner to grab their hauler and take it back.

So while the method for achieving the goal here is different the premise of what it does is still the same and over all jet cans would still be used in much the same ways as they are now: For quick transfer of items with little risk between players or as storage with high risk of theft.


It's called get an Orca.....problem solved. A concept you fail to understand or recognize as a valid solution.
One that everyone in industry uses and swears by.

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Koreli Stelios
Mining Manufacture and Muling
#29 - 2012-05-30 22:52:34 UTC
Oh yea i forgot they just give those out in the tutorials and take no training!?

You seem to fail to understand the concept i put forward to simply suggest a way a specific and unavoidable period of game play perhaps be provided a little more balance.

Now we all know your stand point but you don't speak for everyone. You don't need to keep posting.

Either others will and not support it and so it will be dropped OR others wont because they don't care and so it will be dropped OR others will in support and so perhaps it would go forward.
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2012-05-30 23:14:49 UTC
Koreli Stelios wrote:
Oh yea i forgot they just give those out in the tutorials and take no training!?

You seem to fail to understand the concept i put forward to simply suggest a way a specific and unavoidable period of game play perhaps be provided a little more balance.

Now we all know your stand point but you don't speak for everyone. You don't need to keep posting.

Either others will and not support it and so it will be dropped OR others wont because they don't care and so it will be dropped OR others will in support and so perhaps it would go forward.


Again...you missed the point....not unusual with you these days.

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Zer'Adul
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-06-02 19:23:28 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:
Koreli Stelios wrote:
Oh yea i forgot they just give those out in the tutorials and take no training!?

You seem to fail to understand the concept i put forward to simply suggest a way a specific and unavoidable period of game play perhaps be provided a little more balance.

Now we all know your stand point but you don't speak for everyone. You don't need to keep posting.

Either others will and not support it and so it will be dropped OR others wont because they don't care and so it will be dropped OR others will in support and so perhaps it would go forward.


Again...you missed the point....not unusual with you these days.



And you seem to love being deliberately obtuse... Not unusual with you these days. Are you going to be buying Orcas, and the skill books needed to train them, for all the new players? You must be feeling generous these days... Now, back under your bridge, Troll.


@ OP: The premise appears sound, but that's just at first glance. I don't like this particular angle on how to mitigate some of the rampant flipping. Personally I don't want it to go away in its current form. You make several good points, however I can't support it like this.

I'd say a complete rework after checking out both sides of how the mechanics relating to this work would be in order, but I'm not expecting much in the way of changes.
Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#32 - 2012-06-02 20:54:57 UTC
[sarcasm]Lets just implement a roll system on loot. That way ebil piwates can't steal your things and every poor little newbie is happy in the end![/sarcasm]

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword

Americe Zane
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2012-06-04 07:01:31 UTC
How is wanting to change the whole system of jetcan mining exploit, in the miners favor, accepting the risk of jetcan mining?

FYI, if someone takes something out of my trashcan, and I decide i want it back, break into their home and take it. Guess whos going to jail? Jetcans can be seen as garbage cans. They belong to you and everything inside technically belongs to you, but can be assumed to be up for grabs, as you show that you no longer want it.

In all seriousness, jetcan mining is risky, for all the reasons mentioned in the OP. As others have pointed out, there are better ways to go about mining.
Arduemont
The State of War.
#34 - 2012-06-04 08:41:59 UTC
I have known jet can mining is dangerous since shortly after starting playing Eve. Its just a fact of life.

If you want to solve this problem and a couple of other, suggest a new larger secure container. The Giant Secure container is pathetic, and we could use a bigger one. This would partially solve your problem, and we'd get useful secure containers.

"In the age of information, ignorance is a choice." www.stateofwar.co.nf

Davon Mandra'thin
Consultech Intermediary Services
#35 - 2012-06-04 11:27:04 UTC
Arduemont wrote:
I have known jet can mining is dangerous since shortly after starting playing Eve. Its just a fact of life.

If you want to solve this problem and a couple of other, suggest a new larger secure container. The Giant Secure container is pathetic, and we could use a bigger one. This would partially solve your problem, and we'd get useful secure containers.


Oh my god, yes. Giant Secure Containers are far too small.
Rastino
Taipan's Fury
Pandemic Horde
#36 - 2012-06-04 18:58:32 UTC
Welcome to EVE the only real sandbox MMO on the market right now.

EVE could be saidt to slightly resemble the lawless wild west.

If you get somthing and others can steal it the law will always have better things to do than help you.
On the other hand you are giver the card blanch to shoot the crap out of them. It all boils down to "CAREBEAR SMARTER NOT HARDER"

So if you want to make sure people dont steat your ore use secure cans, an orca alt, a industrial alt or warp to station when cargo is full and unload.

Ohhhh and if you thought EVE was safe you where told wrong..... It is NEVER safe deal with it, the rest of us have.
Rimase
#37 - 2012-06-05 11:03:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Rimase
[deleted]

Looking to join Caldari Faction Warfare corporation!

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2012-06-07 06:11:07 UTC
I agree. If you're gonna flip someone, you shouldn't just leave the ore sitting in space. If you can't do better than that, you're a bad pirate.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#39 - 2012-06-07 12:46:46 UTC
Are you sure you wish to jettison your cargo?
[Yes] [No]


The OP needs to understand what 'Jettison' means.

If you dont want someone to flip, then use secure containers.

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.

Major Killz
Tr0pa de elite.
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#40 - 2012-06-08 16:29:43 UTC
Well. I'm not sure this thread is a big deal.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ![/u]

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