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EVE Alliance Tournament Discussion

 
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Teams Removed From Competition

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claire xxx
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#61 - 2012-05-24 19:38:29 UTC
Lazarus Telraven wrote:


Just to clarify, GSF has only entered a single team into the alliance tourney it is hard enough for us to get a single team into the tourney (see last year)


Fair enough, and apologies for using you as an example. Was just trying to make a point about fairness, and not imply you were actually breaking rules.
Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#62 - 2012-05-24 19:39:43 UTC
Richard Stallmanu Stallmania wrote:

"we cannot consider them anything other than a B team for Pandemic Legion"

From the first post in thread.

there can only be black or white. gray is a lie.

(and don't get me start about colors)
Rojo Mojo
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#63 - 2012-05-24 19:42:17 UTC
Duncan Tanner wrote:
Tyrrax Thorrk wrote:
I found your mistake Garmon!
"Of course we will get everyone in one corp for the training in Sisi because of the logistical nightmare it is."

that's not a very "seperate teams" kinda thing to do
nobody to blame but yourself really


Good job quoting out of context. Still mad about getting outplayed for your Adrestia I see.

Any training done in a wormhole requires everyone to be in the same corporation for using the hangers. All of PL is in one corp on SiSi all of Darkside is in one corp on SiSi.

However you miss the point entirely where we ASKED if we could do this BEFORE we did it and they said NOTHING apart from the GM who said that we could do it.


Why couldn't you just have one corp for Outbreak and one for Hydra in your respective alliances, besides it needing more logistics? And nothing in Garmon's mails says anything about putting everyone in the same corp. Not saying there were not other mails or that I disagree with you, just playing devil's advocate.
Tyrrax Thorrk
Guiding Hand Social Club
#64 - 2012-05-24 19:43:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyrrax Thorrk
Duncan Tanner wrote:
Tyrrax Thorrk wrote:
I found your mistake Garmon!
"Of course we will get everyone in one corp for the training in Sisi because of the logistical nightmare it is."

that's not a very "seperate teams" kinda thing to do
nobody to blame but yourself really


Good job quoting out of context. Still mad about getting outplayed for your Adrestia I see.

Any training done in a wormhole requires everyone to be in the same corporation for using the hangers. All of PL is in one corp on SiSi all of Darkside is in one corp on SiSi.

However you miss the point entirely where we ASKED if we could do this BEFORE we did it and they said NOTHING apart from the GM who said that we could do it.


I don't agree that it's out of context but OK

I read all your correspondence and nowhere did he say you could use the same corp for both teams on SiSi
you do realize PL is one alliance right ? it's not two alliances testing against each other and sharing logistics / theorycraft / planning
same with Darkside.

are goons and test alliance using the same corp on sisi ? or are they you know actually seperate teams doing their own logistics, theorycraft and preparation in general

but yeah obviously I'm just buttmad about an adrestia (lol) you must've missed my earlier post where I think it's lame that we have to go without a defending champion, lame or not it's your own stupid fault
Lazarus Telraven
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#65 - 2012-05-24 19:45:29 UTC
Tyrrax Thorrk wrote:
Duncan Tanner wrote:
Tyrrax Thorrk wrote:
I found your mistake Garmon!
"Of course we will get everyone in one corp for the training in Sisi because of the logistical nightmare it is."

that's not a very "seperate teams" kinda thing to do
nobody to blame but yourself really


Good job quoting out of context. Still mad about getting outplayed for your Adrestia I see.

Any training done in a wormhole requires everyone to be in the same corporation for using the hangers. All of PL is in one corp on SiSi all of Darkside is in one corp on SiSi.

However you miss the point entirely where we ASKED if we could do this BEFORE we did it and they said NOTHING apart from the GM who said that we could do it.


I don't agree that it's out of context but OK

I read all your correspondence and nowhere did he say you could use the same corp for both teams on SiSi
you do realize PL is one alliance right ? it's not two alliances testing against each other and sharing logistics / theorycraft / planning
same with Darkside.

are goons and test alliance using the same corp on sisi ? or are they you know actually seperate teams doing their own logistics, theorycraft and preparation in general

but yeah obviously I'm just buttmad about an adrestia (lol)



Like you said PL are a SINGLE alliance aswell as Darkside.


But goons and test on SiSi are still in their respective alliances, do their own logistics and are not sharing any information. The only thing GSF and TEST are doing together is fighting each other
Raivi
State War Academy
Caldari State
#66 - 2012-05-24 19:45:43 UTC
claire xxx wrote:

Rojo,

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the actual punishment. Just saying if CCP isn't going to follow through and ban PL (as the "main alliance") (or Goons and any of their A-B teams, and anyone else doing it) then they shouldn't be banning Hydra as the "main alliance."

CCP needs to be 100% impartial and enforce rules and punishment equally.


I can't speak for what information Hydra gave CCP, but I can speak on the situation with the Waffles.

Both YOUR VOTES DONT COUNT and PL have been completely aboveboard with CCP from the start about the nature of our relationship and how we are connected, even going so far as to tell CCP things they might not have otherwise known about us (even if that information might encourage them to disallow the entry) so that they wouldn't discover anything later that puts our statements into doubt. Everything we asserted about our teams could be backed up by logs on the test server.

We were never attempting to represent our relationship as anything other than what it is, from start to finish.
Zowie Powers
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2012-05-24 19:46:33 UTC
CCP have all the information they need. They know absolutely full well that Hydra and Outbreak are entirely two seperate entities consisting of 2 entirely different groups of people who only ever come together to dominate alliance tournaments.

CCP made the rules very vague and refused all attempts at clarification.

This particular anomolous judgement will hold no real water and they know it, but they also know it only needs to hold water until the auctions are done, then they can recant and even apologise but it will be too late to repair the damage.

I see it as a piece of genius on their part.

ATX: The best of the rest.
Kadesh Priestess
DEMONS OF THE HIDDEN MIST
TRUTH. HONOUR. LIGHT.
#68 - 2012-05-24 19:47:08 UTC
Tyrrax Thorrk wrote:
I don't agree that it's out of context but OK

I read all your correspondence and nowhere did he say you could use the same corp for both teams on SiSi
you do realize PL is one alliance right ? it's not two alliances testing against each other and sharing logistics / theorycraft / planning
same with Darkside.

are goons and test alliance using the same corp on sisi ? or are they you know actually seperate teams doing their own logistics, theorycraft and preparation in general

but yeah obviously I'm just buttmad about an adrestia (lol)
You miss the point that being in the same corporation is purely technical aspect. There's alot of similar things happening even on TQ to reduce burden of game limitations.

If it would be possible to use POS services without being in the same corporation - it just wouldn't happen.
Duncan Tanner
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#69 - 2012-05-24 19:48:47 UTC
Understand that testing in regular space is different than testing in a wormhole. Explain to me how you can test with two teams in a wormhole?

Are you seriously arguing that we should've had two corps in the wormhole with two pos and two sets of everything as proof of being separate?

That we tested together isn't even the issue. The issue is that we asked for clarification and outlined our full intentions before we did ANYTHING and received no response until now.

.
Peekabooy
ROMANIA Renegades
#70 - 2012-05-24 19:55:46 UTC
Well obviously CCP wasn't going to clarify anything just so they could ban you guys later.

A really, really stupid and childish thing to do, but they did it anyway. Sad

And now they really can't back down either so you are pretty much screwed. Straight
Sven Hammerstorm
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#71 - 2012-05-24 19:58:44 UTC
ccp fail, going to be **** tourney if the interesting teams are metagamed out by ccp )
claire xxx
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#72 - 2012-05-24 19:59:15 UTC
Raivi wrote:
claire xxx wrote:

Rojo,

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the actual punishment. Just saying if CCP isn't going to follow through and ban PL (as the "main alliance") (or Goons and any of their A-B teams, and anyone else doing it) then they shouldn't be banning Hydra as the "main alliance."

CCP needs to be 100% impartial and enforce rules and punishment equally.


I can't speak for what information Hydra gave CCP, but I can speak on the situation with the Waffles.

Both YOUR VOTES DONT COUNT and PL have been completely aboveboard with CCP from the start about the nature of our relationship and how we are connected, even going so far as to tell CCP things they might not have otherwise known about us (even if that information might encourage them to disallow the entry) so that they wouldn't discover anything later that puts our statements into doubt. Everything we asserted about our teams could be backed up by logs on the test server.

We were never attempting to represent our relationship as anything other than what it is, from start to finish.


From CCP Sreegs' initial post: "YOUR VOTES DON’T COUNT is an alliance consisting of a holding corporation and Sniggwaffe, which is widely known as the farm team for Sniggerdly. This is a fact which they openly admit. Unfortunately given that fact, and given the fact that the team captain and CEO bounce regularly between or have alts in Pandemic Legion, we cannot consider them anything other than a B team for Pandemic Legion and as such have to remove them from eligibility for competition."

Again, I'm not saying what CCP Sreegs wrote is actually true, or that I agree with the punishment, but if they're making that determination with Hydra/Outbreak and PL/Your Votes Don't Count then the punishment should be equal for both groups. To do otherwise absolutely goes against being impartial and fair. Either everyone is held to the same standard or no one.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#73 - 2012-05-24 20:01:26 UTC
Duncan Tanner wrote:
Understand that testing in regular space is different than testing in a wormhole. Explain to me how you can test with two teams in a wormhole?

Are you seriously arguing that we should've had two corps in the wormhole with two pos and two sets of everything as proof of being separate?


Yes, thats what they expect, thats why they're mad you put 2 supposedly different teams into a single corp to test.

It doesn't look feel or seem like 2 teams to anybody but you and some people who are mad you won't be in the tourney.

If you were really 2 different teams, and you really both had aspirations of winning, you wouldn't both do all your testing in a single corp in the same wormhole.

Theres not really much stable ground for you to stand on here.


The same would be said of us if Waffles were all joined into Snigg for our testing, only thats not what happened, because for both waffles and us, winning is the goal, so we're not and never were in anyway wanting to share any kind of load.

Duncan Tanner wrote:
That we tested together isn't even the issue.


Yes it is

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Zowie Powers
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2012-05-24 20:01:42 UTC
I've seen a lot of tears about Sisi recently, about who is being all cry about afk cloakers or who is in what alliance.
I didn't even know it had been upgraded to be the Official Alliance Tournament Testing Arena!!!

ATX: The best of the rest.
BombaLuigi
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#75 - 2012-05-24 20:01:56 UTC  |  Edited by: BombaLuigi
as someone who thinks the last at finals were an absolut disaster, i really think removing such strong teams from the tournament is... just wrong... suire, they ****** last at's finals, they train together...whatever, me, as a viwer-only of the at, couldnt give less... i watch the at to see strong teams, outbreak and especially hydra are two of those i would call strong teams...

as a viewer, i'm disappointed, especially after reading garmons post...
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#76 - 2012-05-24 20:02:23 UTC
claire xxx wrote:


Again, I'm not saying what CCP Sreegs wrote is actually true, or that I agree with the punishment, but if they're making that determination with Hydra/Outbreak and PL/Your Votes Don't Count then the punishment should be equal for both groups. To do otherwise absolutely goes against being impartial and fair. Either everyone is held to the same standard or no one.




No, because the Hydra/Outbreak teams were actually colluding together in a single wormhole, PL/YOURVOTESDON"TCOUNT were NOT.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Holy One
Privat Party
#77 - 2012-05-24 20:04:33 UTC
Zowie Powers wrote:
I expected CCP to pull this, but not to do it while simultaneously green lighting PL to do it's A-B team thing again. That bit did surprise me.


Lrn2devalt Roll

:)
Tyrrax Thorrk
Guiding Hand Social Club
#78 - 2012-05-24 20:05:40 UTC
Duncan Tanner wrote:
Understand that testing in regular space is different than testing in a wormhole. Explain to me how you can test with two teams in a wormhole?

Are you seriously arguing that we should've had two corps in the wormhole with two pos and two sets of everything as proof of being separate?

That we tested together isn't even the issue. The issue is that we asked for clarification and outlined our full intentions before we did ANYTHING and received no response until now.


Yeah you should've kept your teams more seperate is exactly what I was arguing. (Not sure how you can disagree when you already know what happens when you don't)

Setting up two POS isn't exactly super difficult, and I know exactly what wormholes and logistics to them is like, it's a pain in the ass, but you wouldn't have had to split up the hauling, could just deposit half at one POS, eject and have someone in other alliance take the rest.
That's assuming you weren't sharing all theorycraft and using the exact same setups of course (which is probably an incorrect assumption)

Was the GM response misleading ? Yes, do CCP in general suck at communicating ? Of course. Did you behave and look as if you were the same team (again) ? Absolutely.
Raivi
State War Academy
Caldari State
#79 - 2012-05-24 20:07:48 UTC
Duncan Tanner wrote:
Understand that testing in regular space is different than testing in a wormhole. Explain to me how you can test with two teams in a wormhole?

Are you seriously arguing that we should've had two corps in the wormhole with two pos and two sets of everything as proof of being separate?

That we tested together isn't even the issue. The issue is that we asked for clarification and outlined our full intentions before we did ANYTHING and received no response until now.


Two seperate teams that want to be able to compete against each other would either not test in the same wormhole, or would use sperate corps and posses with some kind of agreement to prevent spying if they want to do solo tests.

When you all have access to each other's ships, setups and practices it seems hard to beleive that you both wanted to win if you met in a match.

Why you would put both teams in the same corp and expect to be considered seperate is beyond me. You should have just brought Outbreak into Hydra and submitted one team if you needed each other in order to test.
Callic Veratar
#80 - 2012-05-24 20:10:24 UTC
Not the happiest about this decision, but the logic makes sense.

HYDRA and Outbreak making the argument that they're not going to collude, but is it ok if they test all their fits and fleets against each other in the same manner as last year? Seems fishy to me.

And all this because they decided to show boat in the finals.