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AFK Cloaking in System is a Terrible Mechanic
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AFK Cloaker
Matari Exodus
#141 - 2012-05-21 08:37:08 UTC
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Seleia O'Sinnor
Drop of Honey
#142 - 2012-05-21 08:42:00 UTC
REMOVE LOCAL!

Odyssey: Repacking in POS hangars for modules +1,  but please for other stuff too, especially containers. Make containers openable in POS hangars.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#143 - 2012-05-21 08:43:14 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
yes this is clearly behavior demonstrated by every last member of every alliance that, unlike ExhaleDOT, has succeeded in the eve online end-game of conquering and holding space

It is the behaviour or everyone who has ever complained about AFK cloakers.

Christa Larne wrote:
What is unbalanced is that for the cloaked ship there is very little risk to offset the potential reward of getting kills. You can park at a safespot, aligned to something under cloak, and you know 100% that there is no risk to your ship and character.
There is also no reward for doing that, so that's pretty balanced as far as risk-vs-reward is concerned…
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#144 - 2012-05-21 08:44:41 UTC
Seleia O'Sinnor wrote:
REMOVE LOCAL!


yes clearly local is the reason you're not getting any ratter kills, it can't be your overconfidence because you're obviously the best pvper ever

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#145 - 2012-05-21 08:45:43 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
yes this is clearly behavior demonstrated by every last member of every alliance that, unlike ExhaleDOT, has succeeded in the eve online end-game of conquering and holding space

It is the behaviour or everyone who has ever complained about AFK cloakers.


i.e. renters and fair-weather carebears who scream at a wall about something that is not a problem

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Emuar
Vak'Atioth War Veterans
#146 - 2012-05-21 08:50:51 UTC
whats wrong with you ppl? cant deal with one afk!!! ship? you can cynojam system, you can buble gates, intel chan and so on... and you still whining.. pathetic

The mind is a constant. Unfortunately the number of people increases every year....
Americe Zane
The Lucky Punx
#147 - 2012-05-21 08:51:34 UTC
Christa Larne wrote:
In my opinion the issue here is risk versus reward. Many posters have talked about miners being too risk averse to mine with a hostile in system - I guess I can relate to that and I agree that is their choice. They know what the risks are and the rewards and can make their own informed choice.

What is unbalanced is that for the cloaked ship there is very little risk to offset the potential reward of getting kills. You can park at a safespot, aligned to something under cloak, and you know 100% that there is no risk to your ship and character. I don't really care what mechanic is used but we need to introduce some element of risk to leaving a ship cloaked in a system. Whether it be fuel, or some sort of anti-cloak probing module, I don't really care but there needs to be some element of risk.

Personally I would prefer to see some sort of cloak scanning device. Not because I want to stop AFK-cloaking but because I want to kill them! I logon and see a red in my system I want to hunt it down and kill it but today I can't do that because only the cloaker gets to decide when they engage (which will generally be at the point of lowest risk to them). For sure make it so that scanning down a cloaked ship is a slow and painful activity, and of course a smart cloaked pilot will switch safespots from time to time in order to restart the scanning cycle, but it would add a lot of risk to just going AFK and leaving your ship in space.

Of course this is all fairly irrelevant. From the comments posted earlier from CSM it looks like CCP can't do anything to change cloaking without assigning significant development resource that they don't want to take away from other projects. Which is a shame because irrespective of the whole null bear / ganker debate I think we are missing a potentially fun additional game mechanic in the ability to actively hunt cloaked ships.



What is the point of a cloaked ship if it can be scanned down?

There are downsides to flying a cloaky ship. A SB can be popped very easily, for example. Sure, its safe to be in a safe spot cloaked. But what are the rewards? You have to take chances to find someone. You have to uncloak to launch probes or the possibility of landing on something that will uncloak you.

There is always a risk of being attacked in 0.0. If you cant fend off a single ship, maybe bringing a friend will help.

It seems most of the angst has to do with someone being AFK, though. I dont see how that is a legit problem.
RAP ACTION HERO
#148 - 2012-05-21 09:06:52 UTC
but i heard some they are going to do a afk cloaking thing to the goons in deklein.

vitoc erryday
Lexar Mundi
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#149 - 2012-05-21 09:16:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexar Mundi
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Beledia Ilphukiir wrote:
Just make it so, that cloaked people don't show up in local. Problem solved.

Bombing runs make this impractical. You can camp a system with a fleet and no one knows you are there.

Then make a per-aligned bombing run that takes 3 seconds to execute and warp off to freedom with a completely accurate assessment of the enemy force.

Makes Stealth Bomber Ganking 99% Risk Free.



Sounds like Wormhole Space, doesn't it lmao.

Nul sec shouldn't have local, afk cloakers wouldnt have a reason to sit there unless they plan on decloaking and blow something up.

You know how you combat a afk cloaked ship... go about your business and when he decloaks kill the SOB.

~edit~
if you have a problem with someone afk in a cloak ship and you want him to be found... what about low sec where people AFK in stations... you want them to get ejected if the are away too long?
Elena Melkan
Magellanic Itg
Goonswarm Federation
#150 - 2012-05-21 09:39:59 UTC
Lexar Mundi wrote:
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Beledia Ilphukiir wrote:
Just make it so, that cloaked people don't show up in local. Problem solved.

Bombing runs make this impractical. You can camp a system with a fleet and no one knows you are there.

Then make a per-aligned bombing run that takes 3 seconds to execute and warp off to freedom with a completely accurate assessment of the enemy force.

Makes Stealth Bomber Ganking 99% Risk Free.



Sounds like Wormhole Space, doesn't it lmao.

Yes, with couple of exceptions...

To enter certain Wormhole, you need to scan down entrances to it. The entrances will change their places eventually. Also entrance may collapse, if you take too many ships through it. I could imagine this makes co-ordinated bomber fleet assaults to Wormhole space more difficult.

To enter a certain nullsec system, you simply need to take a gate. It will always be there at the same place and you can take as many ships through it as you want and it won't collapse.

See the slight difference in nullsec and wormhole space?
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#151 - 2012-05-21 10:00:07 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
"didn't cut it in nullsec"

Sorry but wormhole alliances aren't the ones who run screaming and crying back to their pos because an AFK player is in the same system, then spread their tears all over the forums begging CCP to protect them from players who aren't even there and can't do a damned thing.


yes this is clearly behavior demonstrated by every last member of every alliance that, unlike ExhaleDOT, has succeeded in the eve online end-game of conquering and holding space


Exhale have succeeded in the eve-online endgame that is not being a bunch of pussies who run to their pos and sob when a single unknown jumps into one of their systems. I am truly astonished at the amount of players who live in nullsec who can't handle a single player loitering around in their little system. The fact you even know they're there at all is a massive help, yet thats not good enough for you and you still cry for more security (via decloaking timers, ability to probe out cloaked ships, or whatever other stupid, stupid ideas you whiners come up with)
Cass Lie
State War Academy
Caldari State
#152 - 2012-05-21 10:30:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Cass Lie
Tippia wrote:
Roime wrote:
Cloak fuel has been brought up numerous times and is a perfect solution.
That's because it's a pretty bad solution. Either it wouldn't restrict cloaking for long enough to appease those who are afraid of local, or it will be so restricting that it breaks cloaking.

The reason local keeps coming up is because that's where the supposed problem of AFK cloaking resides: people are getting their panties in a twist due to having their perfect free intel tool subverted. They want to be able to be able to use local to determine who is a threat and who isn't. The presence of AFK cloaking makes this less reliable.

The core issue is that, at the end of the day, AFK cloakers aren't doing anything. The residents of the system are the ones who choose to be disrupted; who choose not to try to not control their space; who cannot conceive of any way to protect themselves; and generally to stick their heads in the sand and complain about their own choices. It's a psychological warfare tool that subverts intel and provides the single counter to the source of intel that local provides.

The two are inextricably linked. Want to fix one? Then you have to adjust the other.


Afk cloaking indeed isn't a problem. But I can see people being somewhat rightly frustrated by dedicated semi-afk cloaking. Have you ever been on a receiving end of such a thing? Guy sits in system 23.5/7, once every few hours checks scan and if the stars are right, drops ten stealth bombers on you. He can asses the situation pretty well and hence he is not risking much by hotdropping. But it can get really frustrating if you try defending against that, you basically have to have a fleet formed during enemy peak hours doing nothing but sitting on a pos/station/next system gate being alert all the time, doing nothing but waiting for the distress call of the bait ship. Not fun. In the end, the most efficient way is just to relocate to a different system, and let all the hard work you did on getting military/mining indexes up go void.

That isn't much of problem in current political situation in null, where alliancies typically control an entire region and are allowed to rat everywhere. But if CCP actually introduced treaties, build-in renter options or some such, and start-up alliances would only have a handful of systems at their disposal, a small dedicated group could shut up fledging null enterprises with minimal effort.

Not saying it is good or bad (HTFU still applies), it is just how it is right now. It is also why some people are calling for some active means to combat cloaky cyno ships, however difficult/time consuming those means may be.
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#153 - 2012-05-21 11:41:12 UTC
Eso Es wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I like cloaking, I like ganking in WHs, I like breaking gate camps, but to be able to sit afk in someones system cloaked FOR DAYS with no repercussions is just unacceptable. Make cloakers susceptible to combat probes, or really, just do SOMETHING to limit the un-interactiveness of cloak, its a fail mechanic as is. Let the flames begin ^^



the answer is simple,,, remove local see this post >>>CLICK ME<<<
Degren
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2012-05-21 11:47:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Degren
Well I'm off to work.

My six cloaky alts all have cynos/fuel equipped in enemy space.

Occasionally I'll use a remote access android app to dscan, send up an alert and then pop said cyno.

I'm just super satisfied everytime a ratting nightmare or tengu dies to a swarm. They should have stayed aligned.

Cloak tank best tank.

Cyno dps best dps.

Hello, hello again.
xxxTRUSTxxx
Galactic Rangers
#155 - 2012-05-21 11:49:47 UTC
Degren wrote:
Well I'm off to work.

My six cloaky alts all have cynos/fuel equipped in enemy space.

Occasionally I'll use a remote access android app to dscan, send up an alert and then pop said cyno.

I'm just super satisfied everytime a ratting nightmare or tengu dies to a swarm. They should have stayed aligned.



don't you mean,, well i'm clocking off work, i might remote in later to check on things. Roll
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#156 - 2012-05-21 12:09:58 UTC
Tippia wrote:
No. You can be present in local and not be a threat, and you can be absent from local and still be a threat.


If you're in local and not known to the inhabitants then you are a threat....see endless afk cloaking whine. The point is, if you're not blue you're immediately perceived as a threat. If you're absent from local then there is no afk cloaking whine because you are not in the system and cannot be a threat to anyone there perceived or not. If you're not there, you can't do anything to anyone in that system.

Quote:

It means cloaking your ship actually cloaks your ship, and that this is a double-blind (or, not entirely… one-and-three-quarters-blind maybe) state. If you want to find a target for your bombing run, you have to manually warp around (and risk being uncloaked) or use probes (and be spotted on dscan). Yes, you can still use dscan to look for people, but there's a limit to what you can do with that information and what it actually includes.


OK, I'll concede this point here because your previous post implied that you could do nothing but be afk in order to not be in local. I.E. if you moved, even cloaked, you'd be seen in local.

Quote:

It increases the stakes on both sides of the fence: people can no longer tell whether a cloaker is in the system (AFK or not — it doesn't matter), but a cloaker can also no longer tell that there are any targets in the system… or whether they have backup. It provides buffs and nerfs to both sides: the psychological warfare of just being there is gone — you have to actually prove that you're active for it to work, but baiting any such potential attackers is also much easier.

The psychological factor having an unknown neut/red in local is replaced (on both sides) by the psychological factor of inherently being unable to determine whether anyone is watching or not…


Well, that still conveys intel to the inhabitants, doesn't it? If you're a cloaky, you can't really enter the system uncloaked. So, they'll see you pop up, if they're paying attention. But, the large question here, for me is, why even have local update at all for anyone? The natural progression of what you described is more reliance on cloaky vessels, particular T3's. Unfortunately, in order for those cloaky scouts and recon vessels to bring more DPS onto the field local still telegraphs such ship movements when a fleet arrives in response to favorable intel from the scouts. I want to understand that importance to you.

Don't ban me, bro!
doombreed52
TunDraGon
Goonswarm Federation
#157 - 2012-05-21 14:03:24 UTC
Can we reset SMA now and take thier tech moons?
Eso Es
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#158 - 2012-05-21 14:15:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Eso Es
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
I love AFK Cloaking tear threads. Nullbears are as terrible as hisec bears.


I love how the second I even think about shooting a rat Im deamed "a carebear". I'd like to PvP, PvP costs money, Im skilled in such a way that lets me shoot stuff....there must be something I can do to make the ISK I need to get blown up in glorious PvP fire...

Also Im not raging cuz I lost my ship to a hotdrop, Im angry because my ISK making ability was shut down for 3 days by a single guy that was (maybe?) not at his computer for more than a few hours a day. For all of you crying "Set up a defense, problem solved" let me direct you to this excellent post:

Wild Rho wrote:
Zoe Athame wrote:
Obligatory "Zero people have ever died to an AFK player."


That''s either missing the point or ignoring the actual problem.

The AFK cloaker can sit in a system all day but only needs to be actively used by the player when they (and possibly their friends) are ready to take action. If they're bored or there are no targets they can leave the character sitting there and go do something more interesting until an opportunity presents itself.

On the other hand the defenders have no idea when the cloaker is active or genuinely afk. Their only response is to remain docked and do nothing or to actively form a gang to protect whatever activity is going on.

This sounds reasonable at first but what this means is several things are stacked against the defenders:
- Several defenders are forced to stop what they are doing to baby sit others and (if they have an organised defence) there is then a realistic chance that nothing will happen. The attacker only requires a single character and can be active when they feel like it.
Also maintaining this type of defence constantly is neither engaging or fun.

- An attack is only likely to occur if the attackers know they have enough of an advantage to win, the defenders can never preempt this or counter attack.

- The attackers will always have the advantage of knowing what they are engaging in advance, the defenders have no information at all until the attack is launched.

- The attackers have the advantage of mobility since their goal is typically combat orientated and they can move elsewhere. Defender goals are usually around resource collection of some form which is mostly static, so the option to move around is limited.


None of this is really the fault of either side, it's just the inevitable outcome of Eves mechanics that hand out information to the players at no cost or effort.


So the defender cannot even make an educated as to enemy strength, if the enemy is stronger they attack, if they are weaker the waste hours of others people's time and never attack at all. Let me iterate my point, cloaking a ship effectively removes a player from interacting with other players Sure, sitting in a station does the same thing, but the station is meant to be a point of safety and rest, and a player can always dock in said station and see whether or not the player is there. Its a small interaction, but one nonetheless that exists. Why are so many so opposed to having more interaction. Remove local or don't remove local, I dont really care, Ive lived in WHs and I enjoyed not using local. Make cloakers not show up in local, fine. But give us a way to interact with said cloaker, whether it be an anti-cloak ewar ship, or specialized probes, ANYTHING, but IMO more player interaction=more fun.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#159 - 2012-05-21 14:18:26 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
If you're in local and not known to the inhabitants then you are a threat....see endless afk cloaking whine.
Close, but not quite. If you're an unknown in local, people assume you're a threat, regardless of whether you are one or not… and thus we have the endless AFK cloaking whines. That's kind of my point: people assume a connection between the data and its meaning that isn't really there. Making the mechanics enforce a much sharper disconnect between the two might snap people out of that flawed perception.

Quote:
OK, I'll concede this point here because your previous post implied that you could do nothing but be afk in order to not be in local. I.E. if you moved, even cloaked, you'd be seen in local.
Nah, it's a more of a double-blind system. The comms system can't pick you up; you can't use the comms system. It comes with both benefits and detriments. I think the original suggestion (now lost in the depth of the forum archives) also suggested a spool-up time on cynos to make them mutually detrimental as well, since that's the thing people are really worried about.

Quote:
Well, that still conveys intel to the inhabitants, doesn't it? If you're a cloaky, you can't really enter the system uncloaked. So, they'll see you pop up, if they're paying attention. But, the large question here, for me is, why even have local update at all for anyone? The natural progression of what you described is more reliance on cloaky vessels, particular T3's. Unfortunately, in order for those cloaky scouts and recon vessels to bring more DPS onto the field local still telegraphs such ship movements when a fleet arrives in response to favorable intel from the scouts. I want to understand that importance to you.
The importance really lies in hose five words: “if they're paying attention”. I have no problems with intel being used in various ways (and it being subverted) — I have a problem with it being done automatically for you. At that point, it's no longer intel — it's an automated alarm system. If that attacking cloaker fleet leaves a trail of bread-crumbs behind for the eagle-eyed to spot, then that's excellent! That means you both sides have to exercise some situational awareness and stealth to gain an advantage over the other side.
knulla
Doomheim
#160 - 2012-05-21 14:21:12 UTC
Make all local in eve like WH local.

 [u]Malice Redeemer[/u] - "Post if you are unsubing over the new inventory"  Posted: 2012.05.23 01:39

    lol