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A Nerf to Datacores....The CCP mistake
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Tasiv Deka
End-of-Line
#21 - 2012-05-16 17:09:15 UTC
hey so long as i don't lose the rp already gained when i don't get a decent kspace for a week ill be fine... i mean seriously i live in a wormhole and this last week i haven't had an exit worth using all week, granted i still think they should make it less automated than it is... force people to do the "OUR RESEARCH HAS REACHED AN IMPASSE" type missions more often to earn rp that way its still semi-passive and people have to do a misson every few days or so.

Also why shouldn't FW get a buff to their rewards... most of their LP rewards are terrible, especially when you look at the Risk/Reward ratio with High-Sec Lvl 4s.

Oh, Do go on... no seriously ive got nothing better to do then listen to all the petty arguments and feeble trolling attempts... 

The sad thing is i'm not sure if i'm telling the truth.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#22 - 2012-05-16 17:25:47 UTC
Given the amount of LP awarded for faction kills, I suspect there will be a glut of datacores and faction ships.
Haulie Berry
#23 - 2012-05-16 17:58:20 UTC
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Given the amount of LP awarded for faction kills, I suspect there will be a glut of datacores and faction ships.


Yep. I would not want to be holding large quantities of either when the patch drops.
Nevryn Takis
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2012-05-16 18:49:11 UTC
The nerf to datacores is just another nail in the industrialists coffin ... basically Eve is becomming PVP in Null sec under goon control ... any other gaming is being nerfed out of existance .. CCP should just bite the bullet and change their name go GoonPuppet Ltd
Haulie Berry
#25 - 2012-05-16 18:53:04 UTC
Nevryn Takis wrote:
The nerf to datacores is just another nail in the industrialists coffin ... basically Eve is becomming PVP in Null sec under goon control ... any other gaming is being nerfed out of existance .. CCP should just bite the bullet and change their name go GoonPuppet Ltd


Could someone be so kind as to attempt to quantify the actual isk per month damage done to industrialists by this change, please?

Ballpark figure, at least?
Marcus McTavish
Volcel Police
#26 - 2012-05-16 19:31:40 UTC
PI and Trading are clickfests, and require work.

Datacores, are more like come by station once per month, then profit.

This is a no-no for CCPs plan deal with it.

Go join FW and profit!
Nevryn Takis
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-05-16 21:27:06 UTC
Marcus McTavish wrote:
PI and Trading are clickfests, and require work.

Datacores, are more like come by station once per month, then profit.

This is a no-no for CCPs plan deal with it.

Go join FW and profit!

Fail on several fronts
1) Your assumption that all data cores are immediately sold ... do you actually have any idea of the success rates for invention?
2) Your assumption that everyone wants to actively engange in PVP or has the isk income to do so
3) Your assumption that industrialist can actually afford to have massive neg standings with 2 factions ...
Haulie Berry
#28 - 2012-05-16 22:42:18 UTC
Nevryn Takis wrote:
Marcus McTavish wrote:
PI and Trading are clickfests, and require work.

Datacores, are more like come by station once per month, then profit.

This is a no-no for CCPs plan deal with it.

Go join FW and profit!

Fail on several fronts
1) Your assumption that all data cores are immediately sold ... do you actually have any idea of the success rates for invention?
2) Your assumption that everyone wants to actively engange in PVP or has the isk income to do so
3) Your assumption that industrialist can actually afford to have massive neg standings with 2 factions ...


You do understand that you don't have to personally farm your own datacores, right? You can just go to that big market thingamadoohickey and buy them. It's easy.
qDoctor Strangelove
Doomheim
#29 - 2012-05-16 22:56:41 UTC
Nevryn Takis wrote:
Marcus McTavish wrote:
PI and Trading are clickfests, and require work.

Datacores, are more like come by station once per month, then profit.

This is a no-no for CCPs plan deal with it.

Go join FW and profit!

Fail on several fronts
1) Your assumption that all data cores are immediately sold ... do you actually have any idea of the success rates for invention?
2) Your assumption that everyone wants to actively engange in PVP or has the isk income to do so
3) Your assumption that industrialist can actually afford to have massive neg standings with 2 factions ...


Industrialists SHOULD not be self supplied with stuff. So, nerf of data cores, buff to mining
NULL sec NPC killers should not get minerals, so bye bye gun miners, buff to mining
Miners should not be able to roid-gank-fit their ships at no risk, buff destroyers, nerf high sec mining
Killing high sec miners should be expensive or a team effort... Nerf BS/BC solokill boats, buff small high damage ships for groups.


Eve is awesome
CCP is awesome

You on the other hand, should be killed.
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
#30 - 2012-05-16 23:04:02 UTC
Marcus McTavish wrote:
PI and Trading are clickfests, and require work.

Datacores, are more like come by station once per month, then profit.

This is a no-no for CCPs plan deal with it.

Go join FW and profit!


If datacore farming was so easy and passive, everyone would do it, profits would plunge and there would be nothing to nerf.

CCP have failed to understand the problem, so of course their solution is dumb.
Volar Kang
Kang Industrial
#31 - 2012-05-17 00:35:27 UTC
Personally, I dont understand the focus on datacores. There are so many other ways to make more money, why waste the development time to change the datacore system and screw a player out of a mere 100mill a month? There are so many other systems in this game that need dev love, why waste it on datacores. Its not like anyone is getting rich from them. Even if you spent the time to get all three of your char's to level 4 agents and trained up in the skills, you could not make enough on one account to buy a plex in 30 days.

With the datacore nerf, the talked about T2 production move to low/null sec only, destroyer buff for easy hulk killing and other CCP directives, I think being a highsec industrialist may become a thing of the past.
Tadeo Musashy
Doomheim
#32 - 2012-05-17 00:43:26 UTC
i'd bet that all those who favour the datacore nerf have never bothered to train a shtload of skills to lvl 5 for the only reason of having 300 RP/day... thay also never bothered to raise the standings with a corp and with an agent for the only reason of having 300 RP/day... in fact they are backing up this nerf mostly because they have no access to those "free" datacores so lets screw those who have access... let me remind them: those are not "free" datacores... maybe static but not "free"... we are talking about some good months of training time and gameplay in order to have that benefit... for example: what would a pvp'er think if suddently ccp would decide to nerf the "xxx gun specialization" skills so that the skill would not "grant" a 2% dmg increase per level but only 1%? i'm sure most if not all of them would scream out loud and clear that they "invested" training time and they dont deserve to be nerfed...
if "static" is consdered to be bad then find other means to enforce activity - but datacores gain should stay with R&D agents where it was and all those eager to get their hands on some "free" datacores should do the same effort to have them handy...

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Haulie Berry
#33 - 2012-05-17 01:06:41 UTC
Tadeo Musashy wrote:
i'd bet that all those who favour the datacore nerf have never bothered to train a shtload of skills to lvl 5 for the only reason of having 300 RP/day... thay also never bothered to raise the standings with a corp and with an agent for the only reason of having 300 RP/day... in fact they are backing up this nerf mostly because they have no access to those "free" datacores so lets screw those who have access... let me remind them: those are not "free" datacores... maybe static but not "free"... we are talking about some good months of training time and gameplay in order to have that benefit... for example: what would a pvp'er think if suddently ccp would decide to nerf the "xxx gun specialization" skills so that the skill would not "grant" a 2% dmg increase per level but only 1%? i'm sure most if not all of them would scream out loud and clear that they "invested" training time and they dont deserve to be nerfed...
if "static" is consdered to be bad then find other means to enforce activity - but datacores gain should stay with R&D agents where it was and all those eager to get their hands on some "free" datacores should do the same effort to have them handy...



Confirming that you are, in fact, the first player to ever have been adversely affected by a change in game mechanics.

Seriously, I don't agree at all that datacores should be tied to FW. It simply doesn't make sense that the faction militias would be the primary purveyors of engineering knowledge in the universe.

That said, the existing mechanic is pretty poor, too. Anything that encourages using an army of alts to passively farm items is clearly silly.

As for the shitload of skills to 5: They're almost entirely the same skills used in invention, so they haven't been rendered useless. Don't be so melodramatic.
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
#34 - 2012-05-17 04:41:24 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:

As for the shitload of skills to 5: They're almost entirely the same skills used in invention, so they haven't been rendered useless. Don't be so melodramatic.


CCP have stated they want to move T2 production to low-sec and zero-sec, so even if the datacore harvester does do use those skills for invention, they are soon to be redundant skills for high sec players

Unless of course CCP fail to live up to their plan of moving T2 production to low and zero sec, which is pretty likely given their track record of achievements.
Tadeo Musashy
Doomheim
#35 - 2012-05-17 06:54:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tadeo Musashy
Haulie Berry wrote:
Tadeo Musashy wrote:
i'd bet that all those who favour the datacore nerf have never bothered to train a shtload of skills to lvl 5 for the only reason of having 300 RP/day... thay also never bothered to raise the standings with a corp and with an agent for the only reason of having 300 RP/day... in fact they are backing up this nerf mostly because they have no access to those "free" datacores so lets screw those who have access... let me remind them: those are not "free" datacores... maybe static but not "free"... we are talking about some good months of training time and gameplay in order to have that benefit... for example: what would a pvp'er think if suddently ccp would decide to nerf the "xxx gun specialization" skills so that the skill would not "grant" a 2% dmg increase per level but only 1%? i'm sure most if not all of them would scream out loud and clear that they "invested" training time and they dont deserve to be nerfed...
if "static" is consdered to be bad then find other means to enforce activity - but datacores gain should stay with R&D agents where it was and all those eager to get their hands on some "free" datacores should do the same effort to have them handy...



Confirming that you are, in fact, the first player to ever have been adversely affected by a change in game mechanics.

Seriously, I don't agree at all that datacores should be tied to FW. It simply doesn't make sense that the faction militias would be the primary purveyors of engineering knowledge in the universe.

That said, the existing mechanic is pretty poor, too. Anything that encourages using an army of alts to passively farm items is clearly silly.

As for the shitload of skills to 5: They're almost entirely the same skills used in invention, so they haven't been rendered useless. Don't be so melodramatic.


in fact , since 2003 we've been screwed... errr... "adversely affected " several (dozens) times by all kind of changes in game mechanics - and i'm still here so at the end of the day i was able to survive GAME changes... the main issue i'm pointing on is some (including this datacores one) changes are rather radical screwes then lucrative tweaks, affecting way too much training-time-wise... when i've decided to folow the scientist path, investing several good months into the process the perspective was clear... therfore any changes to the "outcome" should be either a resonable (and/or justified) tweak - for example: one should "validate" his daily datacores harvest by visiting the agent every day... or, even better, if radical changes ar to be made, one should at least have the opportunity to reallocate, at will, all the skillpoints in the changed area, coresponding to the new "improved" game reality...

and no: i'm not melodramatic, i'm angry: almost as angry as i was when exploration was screwed... when another several good months of speced training time suddently ment sht and i was supposed to run side by side with every 2 months old chars who decided that spawning probes is "fun"... grrrr...

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clixor
Celluloid Gurus
#36 - 2012-05-17 12:14:06 UTC
Tadeo Musashy wrote:


and no: i'm not melodramatic, i'm angry: almost as angry as i was when exploration was screwed... when another several good months of speced training time suddently ment sht and i was supposed to run side by side with every 2 months old chars who decided that spawning probes is "fun"... grrrr...


So basically you are using the argument that older players should ALWAYS have an advantage. You still should be able to do everything way more efficiently than a 2 month char so i see no reason to deny young players to anything. Eve is a game and it needs fresh blood on a regular basis.

That said, a lot of people back in the day (before my time actually) trained up the skills to receive T2 BPO's. You sound just like the players back then who received a couple of T2 bpo's and then complained about the training time when the lotterly was removed.

So my advice to players who trained the skills, either go actually use the science skills and go invent. Or sell the char.
Tadeo Musashy
Doomheim
#37 - 2012-05-17 13:44:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tadeo Musashy
clixor wrote:
Tadeo Musashy wrote:


and no: i'm not melodramatic, i'm angry: almost as angry as i was when exploration was screwed... when another several good months of speced training time suddently ment sht and i was supposed to run side by side with every 2 months old chars who decided that spawning probes is "fun"... grrrr...


So basically you are using the argument that older players should ALWAYS have an advantage. You still should be able to do everything way more efficiently than a 2 month char so i see no reason to deny young players to anything. Eve is a game and it needs fresh blood on a regular basis.

That said, a lot of people back in the day (before my time actually) trained up the skills to receive T2 BPO's. You sound just like the players back then who received a couple of T2 bpo's and then complained about the training time when the lotterly was removed.

So my advice to players who trained the skills, either go actually use the science skills and go invent. Or sell the char.


So basically i am using the (common sense) argument that rules must not be changed in the midle of the game - at least not in a significant way. You and ofc most if not all younger players dont agree that older players should ALWAYS have an advantage - fair enough... but ONLY for the reasons you shown above ("eve...needs fresh blood" and stuff like that)... but you also KNOW and admit accordingly ("you still should be able to do everything way more efficiently... ") that's what its FAIR to be... so lets put it this way: older AND MORE SKILLED players should always have A SMALL advantage... for example a young (2 months old explorer with skills at lvl 4) should be able to find 1/10s. 2/10s and 3/10s plexes in highsec space but should need to have skills at lvl 5 in order to find the 4/10s... if we'd consider datacores aquisition: having the science skills at lvl 4 isnt that hard to aquire - max 2 weeks - and it would grant you a nice +250 RP/day from an R&D agent VS my 300 RP/day... it doesnt sound that bad considering i've wasted at least 3-4 months training time for those extra 50 RP/day...

- as for the T2 bpos from lottery: one who didnt receive any T2 bpo has every right to complain about removing the lottery while those who got some had they fair share from training therefore they have no reason nor the right to complain... see my point?

- and finally i have to return the advice favour:
my advice to players who havent trained the skills, either go actually train the science skills and have the (resonable lesser qty) datacores and go invent. Or go get them from the market... Or buy a char who would be able to do it... .

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Nlex
Domini Canium
#38 - 2012-05-17 18:45:13 UTC
This is indeed a CCP's mistake, and not because it nerfs datacore gathering from research agents. But because it changes nothing in a way people gather datacores from research agents. They don't change the mechanic to make research more active/dynamic profession. They take away toys from one group of people and give them to another, because later group whines more.
Thus they go against their own stated agenda of:
1. Hating passive income.(it's still here)
2. Hating mining with guns.(shooting stuff now gives you industry materials)
Volar Kang
Kang Industrial
#39 - 2012-05-17 19:11:27 UTC
clixor wrote:
[quote=Tadeo Musashy]

So my advice to players who trained the skills, either go actually use the science skills and go invent. Or sell the char.



How can I invent when I just lost half my cores and who wants to buy a char with useless skills? I'm not saying the datacore change is the gamebreaker here but when you add it to the coming change of T2 production in low/null sec only, many of the small invention corps just took a hit to the chin.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#40 - 2012-05-17 19:29:20 UTC
Volar Kang wrote:
clixor wrote:
[quote=Tadeo Musashy]

So my advice to players who trained the skills, either go actually use the science skills and go invent. Or sell the char.



How can I invent when I just lost half my cores and who wants to buy a char with useless skills? I'm not saying the datacore change is the gamebreaker here but when you add it to the coming change of T2 production in low/null sec only, many of the small invention corps just took a hit to the chin.


I'm concerned for this too. I'm not one of those nerds training dozens of alts for this purpose therefore I have my alt industrial toon only that does this.
It's a hell of a hit on it's chin because was not doing real benefits for the time invested on hauling the dam things/sell or invent, but was something to experiment and try out.

Now with these changes will just become totally useless and wasted SP since I'll be better killing rabbits (rats) for instant gratification and eventually buy some from all those nerds keeping dozens alts doing that, since because of their actions prices will not be that higher after a few speculation moments.

Still, spend time training for useless skills when same amount of skills in guns would probably be a better investment.

brb