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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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FW: I-hub and system upgrades

First post First post
Author
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2012-05-12 08:23:39 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
They should reap any rewards.


Given the content of your post I think you are missing a word.

Neutrals should have access to upgrades that support industry only, access to slots and market broker fee reductions yes, clone costs no.

This should continue if other benefits are introduced such as reduced repair costs etc, these should not benefit neutrals.

As for other upgrades: -

Link NPC Strength to systems level. Only E-war at higher levels.

If station lockout is introduced at higher level then perhaps a bribe docking fee at lower levels for the enemy militia to discourage repeatedly docking up.

Repair costs.

Planetary interaction bonuses - perhaps a good one for neutrals.

Could introduce cheaper, faster slots to benefit local production
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
#22 - 2012-05-12 09:54:54 UTC
Post Fixed. Why should nuetrals have access to any of it? They did nothing to secure the system? Only thing I can think of is that they may help defend the system if they reap the benefits (?).

Maybe FW players could rent out upgraded space? Would it be worth it?
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
Team Amarrica
#23 - 2012-05-12 10:23:10 UTC
I think the hope is to get some trade hubs established in low sec. Most FW pilots I know aren't into industry. Offering upgrades to neutral or friendly pilots seems neccesary.
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
#24 - 2012-05-12 10:30:04 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Post Fixed. Why should nuetrals have access to any of it? They did nothing to secure the system? Only thing I can think of is that they may help defend the system if they reap the benefits (?).

Maybe FW players could rent out upgraded space? Would it be worth it?

So low sec industry having an advantage over high sec industry is a bad thing? If the benefits are good enough, then low sec might not be 'dead' anymore

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice.

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#25 - 2012-05-12 12:34:41 UTC
Grey Azorria wrote:
So low sec industry having an advantage over high sec industry is a bad thing? ...

No, but adding slots to stations that are rarely if ever "full" is pretty bad as it changes absolutely nothing .. it is the proverbial drop in the ocean.
If the goal is to 'boost' the FW areas by attracting industrialists and marketeers, then almost all actions one can do in that field needs to be tax/fee-free and actual bonuses applied to manufacturing, invention and the like. Remember that if it is 'float' it needs to be able to compete with the 4 hubs and high-sec in general which the current level of benefit is nowhere near enough to.

X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
#26 - 2012-05-12 13:15:02 UTC
Grey Azorria wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Post Fixed. Why should nuetrals have access to any of it? They did nothing to secure the system? Only thing I can think of is that they may help defend the system if they reap the benefits (?).

Maybe FW players could rent out upgraded space? Would it be worth it?

So low sec industry having an advantage over high sec industry is a bad thing? If the benefits are good enough, then low sec might not be 'dead' anymore


I meant would it be worth it for a FW corp to spend 150k LP initially, and then probably 10-50k lp / day to keep the system upgraded so that neutrals can farm? Would the nuetrals be willing to pay 10-50 million isk/ day (converting LP to isk at 1000 isk/LP) to rend a low sec system? Probably not.

Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#27 - 2012-05-13 16:18:46 UTC
I think that certain upgrades should be generally available, because we want to encourage lowsec industry, while certain upgrades should be available only to the militia, because we want to reward them specifically.

For example, suppose that at a certain level of upgrades, a system had: reduced repair bills, improved insurance, improved refining, reduced clone costs, reduced transaction taxes, improved manufacturing ME/PE, improved research, additional slots, and improved invention chance.

I would reserve the improvements to clones, repair bills, insurance, number of slots, and invention to the militia. That it their exclusive reward for holding the system. Neutrals would benefit from improved refining, manufacturing, research, and taxes.

Additional/refined upgrade ideas:
-militia stations improve the performance of faction-appropriate t2 bpcs. They get a bonus to ME, PE, and max run number based upon the level of system upgrade. This would give a pretty incontrovertible advantage to people producing T2 stuff in lowsec vs highsec.
-Allow militia to benefit from the full degree of upgrades. Neutrals get a somewhat reduced benefit (either at a lower level of upgrade, or reduced on a percentage basis).
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
#28 - 2012-05-13 21:08:40 UTC
If improving low sec is the goal, then why provide these improvements only to FW space?
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2012-05-13 21:24:18 UTC
The cost and method of maintaining the upgrades is certainly an interesting point. As a mainly Solo pilot would I want to add LP to the hub? Perhaps if I was LP rich but the bonuses do not really seem tailored to give me an immediate benefit. I can certainly see corps and alliances wanting to keep certain systems upgraded but the onus will still be on the individual to contribute LP. Is there any method of seeing who has contributed LP?

At the moment I get an evemail notifying me of an LP reward I have received from a complex completion; normally I just spend it in bulk on faction mods/ships. With different methods of expenditure I would perhaps like to track this better. Is there any other way to track you LP reward history and spend? I can find the total in the journal, it may be helpful for it to work like the faction standings tabs so you can see your history, a proper LP wallet journal would be better though. Is the LP history in the API, could corps track their members contributions this way?
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-05-14 03:22:55 UTC
I think the bonus to science and manufacturing time is a good idea, maybe give these bonuses to people who spend LP on them. I like the added slots idea, but I don't think that you're adding enough, maybe +5 per level would be good. Or you can have extra slots (with bonuses) for members of the faction only. Like a fast pass. Sadly, I'm staying in CAS with this character so I'm not going to see use of that feature.

Another option would be tech 2 BPCs have a reduced time and mat waste in them or you could use LP and a lot of ISK to turn a T2 BPC into a T2 BPO. Maybe 100,000 LPs and 100 million isk for things like ammo and drones to 1 million LPs and a billion or five isk for a ship BPO. IMO I'd really like to see research upgraded, but this thread isn't the place for it.

You could also offer skill point rewards for LP and allow players or alt chars to participate to speed up their training.

Battleground systems could have named NPCs and NPC groups for both sides and they could meet and slug it out. These NPCs wouldn't give ISK but they could get LP for FW members and neutrals who want to access the LP store.

Another option is a home-field advantage: donate enough LP and all members of your faction in that system get small boosts to things like damage dealed, cap recharge, and resists and the other side gets small penalties.

I'd like to see assist the cause quests for non-FW members. That way you could participate to a limited degree for reduced or no faction losses. Things like: attack NPC pirates so the militia doesn't have to, or donate a ship, or go scout/probe an enemy system under the guise of a trade mission. You could also have donate ISK for LP. Ideally all NPC security missions involving faction loss would be moved to FW, but that's for another discussion.
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-05-14 16:25:32 UTC
As far as additional upgrades, I would like to see a few things.

First, I think there should be some benefit to POCOs and PI in upgraded systems. Some ideas are increased shield regen on POCOs. More shield hitpoints on POCOs. A bonus to PI materials extracted from installations belonging to the controlling militia. Some sort of PI material kickback to the corps holding POCOs (ie if my faction has an upgraded system and my corp own a POCO there, I get some number of PI materials sent to my corp based on what is being produced on my planet). Etc...

Second, I'd like to see a bonus to POS fuel usage in upgraded systems.

Third, I'd like to see something like Concord Billboards shoot at enemy militia while in a upgraded system. (Minimal damage, but enough to stop instalocking frigs/destroyers from camping the gates).

Fourth, I'd like to see additional station services added (ie cloning facilities where there was none, manufacturing slots where there were none, reprocessing where there was none, etc).

Fifth, very cheap office rent to the controlling faction corps and not haivng those corps offices count against the office limit.

.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#32 - 2012-05-15 22:48:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
This is a discussion about system upgrades received when donating LP into the FW infrastructure hub, and how to make them more appealing after Inferno. Please refer to the FW blog for more details.


At the moment they are:

  • Upgrade level 1 - 10,000 LPs required: +1 more station manufacturing, ME, PE, invention and copy slots*, 10% price reduction for medical clones (not jump clones), 10% reduction in market / contract broker fees

  • Upgrade level 2 - 25,000 LPs required: +2 more station manufacturing, ME, PE, invention and copy slots*, 20% price reduction for medical clones (not jump clones), 20% reduction in market / contract broker fees

  • Upgrade level 3 - 45,000 LPs required: +3 more station manufacturing, ME, PE, invention and copy slots*, 30% price reduction for medical clones (not jump clones), 30% reduction in market / contract broker fees

  • Upgrade level 4 - 70,000 LPs required: +4 more station manufacturing, ME, PE, invention and copy slots*, 40% price reduction for medical clones (not jump clones), 40% reduction in market / contract broker fees

  • Upgrade level 5 - 100,000 LPs required: +5 more station manufacturing, ME, PE, invention and copy slots*, 50% price reduction for medical clones (not jump clones), 50% reduction in market / contract broker fees

  • Buffer - 100,000+ to 150,000 LPs


* Slots are only given for stations that already have that given activity before upgrade. For instance: a station only having science slots will not receive extra manufacturing slots.

It's a start, but nothing fancy. We would like to iterate on that after Inferno, and we have already heard some good comments, but your input is welcome.


Some ideas, not necessarily in any order:

  • Bring back the cyno jammer, if polished enough to be shot down by neutral third parties. Fanfest taught us it is a very tricky move, so we want to hear from all interested parties here
  • Move station deny docking from being automatic when a system is captured to something that only happens when the enemy upgrade a system to level X
  • Provide science, manufacturing time reduction bonuses to further encourage industry in low-security space


Speaking of which, how do you feel about neutrals having access to your precious upgrades? As explained in the blog, the original goal was to promote an industrial backbone in low-security space, but you may feel differently.



Thanks for your time!


First let me say that the upgrades and the gain and loss of lp that occurs every time an offensive plex is run is what I consider the best part of this expansion. Ideally it should lead to both factions having a sense of urgency to stop an enemy from plexing.

However I do not think these upgrades are gonna cut it. I am not sure who would invest this sort of lp for these upgrades in the vast majority of systems.

I think the key as to whether people will work toward these upgrades will be how the 16x multiplier works. How much do these levels of upgrades play into that?

If the losing side can knock down the other sides multiplier by taking lp from the upgrades and thereby raise their own multiplier fairly quickly then I think we will see allot of fights over plexes. However if keeping the systems upgraded is just some vague and minor "factor" in that then I don't think we will get that sense of urgency.

In other words, for the 16x multiplier, the level of upgrades of the systems you do should be relatively very important versus just the raw number of systems you have nonupgraded "sov" in.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#33 - 2012-05-16 00:45:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Ok more on the above, the only thing that I would really care at all about is how the upgrades effect the 16x multiplier.

But we don't really know how this will work very much other than this:


CCP Ytterbium wrote:

"War zone control and LP store prices

On the bigger scale, we wanted to help participating players feel more like they were in the middle of a fluctuating war zone rather than just participating in a line of unconnected skirmishes. That is why progress will now be tracked by counting the number of solar systems held, how many upgrades are installed for each faction and compared to the faction's enemy over the regions being competed for.


[picture]
Click to enlarge

As individual factions conquer space and upgrade systems, their respective war zone control tier will increase to unlock several benefits.

First, the offer requirements in the respective faction LP store will decrease. As such, at the lowest tier, LP store offers will be 4x times more expensive as they are now, while at the highest tier, they will be 4 times as cheap. This only applies to ISK and LP requirements for offers, not tags or items. It also only counts for the 4 Factional Warfare militia LP stores; no other corporation will be affected."



What if 16x multiplier was based *soley* on the ratios of total lp each faction invested in their systems. The number of systems in an of themselves wouldn't count toward the 16x multiplier. Its just that if you have 2 systems instead of just one you have another system you can invest your lp in to help throw the multiplier in your favor.

By making this all important 16x multiplier be at risk from plexing it will create a sense of urgency for plexing and defending plexes. It will be the basic risk reward aspect of eve. People will risk their lp to get more lp.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Dirk Smacker
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-05-16 17:41:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirk Smacker
I think there should be different bars to donate isk to.

* The current one provides the defensive buffer, so leave that. All deducted LP's from plexing gets taken from it.

* Another bar for the probability of professional sites in that system similar to the null sec upgrade, but each step in the ladder applies to a different type of site (grav,mag,ladar, radar), say the first four rungs 2X probability, the last four 5X probability for each. The only time LP is taken away is when sov changes, but the amount of LP to get better upgrades is steep.

* An additional bar, more of a button, for cyno jamming. This should be used for protection during operations, not a 24/7 thing. For instance, donate 100,000K LP and you can online a cyno jammer in the system for an hour. That could be a good enough reason to take/hold a stationless system if you plan on doing POS removal.

I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one.

Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#35 - 2012-05-16 19:45:26 UTC
This is slightly off-topic, but it was inspired by Cearain's comments about multipliers, so whatever

What if, instead of the tiers causing an increase/decrease in LP store costs, determined what was available in the LP store, e.g. at the lowest tier, only basic warfighting equipment (stuff like the faction ships and faction ammo) in available. Progressively more awesome becomes available, until at max tier you're getting Navy Issue titans or something.

Also, +1 for cynojam button.
Nicklaus Klaus'nik
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2012-05-17 02:51:27 UTC
bring on the cyno jammers. moar fights.
Seanigulous
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Dock Workers
#37 - 2012-05-17 03:18:43 UTC
Why not have defensive plexing put some LP back into the hub? Still no personal benefit, fine, but at least a benefit.

On another note, +1 to cyno jammers. Without it there is no way for faction alliances to be serious contenders...

Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2012-05-17 10:23:12 UTC
Seanigulous wrote:
Why not have defensive plexing put some LP back into the hub? Still no personal benefit, fine, but at least a benefit.



This I think is a good idea and cynojammers as well but needs careful balancing. Could it be made to still allow jump freighters to lock on but not combat capitals?

Insurance - not cheaper insurance as people would just buy from the one system but increased pay-outs based on system level.

System Safety (Lawlessness) - there has been an assumption that upgrades boost a system from the current level, what if systems that are not upgraded are not as good/safe as they are now, side effects of the warzone. No upgrades - Gate Guns do less damage or take longer to activate, could also link in Navy Faction NPC strength/E-war ability in plexes. Perhaps also increase difficulty and therefore bounties of local pirate rats at lower levels, this kind of connects in if neutrals do not end up getting benefits when the system is upgraded, may give reasons for some neutrals to try to keep systems less upgraded/interfere with the militia although this is tricky if they have no method of bringing the LP in the hub down.

Devs seem a bit quiet, will there be any last changes or is it all going out as it is on the test server?

I would still like a better way to track LP spend in hubs and LP received?
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#39 - 2012-05-17 13:42:22 UTC
Ok lets assume it spending lp on upgrades does not effect the 16x multiplier (It does have some, as yet undescribed effect, but assume it doesn't just for the sake of argument). Is anyone thinking they would actually spend their own lp to upgrade more than maybe 1 or 2 hub systems?

Unless it greatly effects the 16x multiplier I personally won't be spending any of my own lp for these upgrades I know that.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#40 - 2012-05-17 18:18:48 UTC
Perhaps one of the upgrades could be a notification system that lets us know if the enemy is attacking plexes in our control that way we could protect the lp we invest from ninja plexers.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815