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Inferno And Datacores

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Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
#381 - 2012-05-14 01:16:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Ten Bulls
Tessla Coil wrote:
Ten Bulls wrote:
Tessla Coil wrote:
I ran some numbers, based on info pulled from the dev blog.
FW people can buy datacores in a block of 5 for 200K and 200 LP.


So that 200k ISK + 200LP isnt very relevent, its actually a floating price, its high point is 16 times its low point


Yes, I read the dev blog, but I don't see how this multiple tier thing is relevant.
Enlighten me.


One day a FW player might be able to buy a datacore for 200K ISK + 200LP, the next day/week/month the same datacore might only cost them 50K ISK + 50LP.

Im not sure what the high and low points are specifically.
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#382 - 2012-05-14 04:49:38 UTC
Eaorgan Dax wrote:
Urgg Boolean wrote:
So is the real motivation for this change because Research as a business is costing CCP profits, as in training up my two alts to do R&D and buying PLEX with the profits? Well, I don't do that.


I think you missed school somehow.........
CCP missing profit because people buy plex in game.......... Right.....

Ok, let me help you out there..... PLEX, is bought from CCP, every PLEX in the game has been bought from CCP, so how does CCP not make profit?
Thank you. Our fellow subscribers miss this point more often than not.

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.
Francisco Bizzaro
#383 - 2012-05-14 06:38:06 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Let me just throw this in here.

One maxed datacore alt = passive income for one year of about 912.5 million (faction ship cores @125k per)

Training character for sale = passive income for one year 8-11 billion ( Focused @ max training rate)



Nice try, but paying for those 12 months of skilling aint free, and then you don't have a character after you've sold it. The two are not so simply comparable.


Not free since I am paying for the acct. But considering I'd be doing that anyway for the fully skilled character that needs no more training for what I want him to do, not an issue either. Two empty character slots with nothing to use them for but train up 20M SP characters and sell them. Total passive income at no cost for that specific character.

I'd argue the training character income is actually less passive than the datacores. You have to at least log in every couple of days to update the skill queue. Okay, it's not a high level of activity. But a lot of Eve jobs are like that - not intensive activity, but you need to tend to them every once in a while or they stop producing.

The datacore farming is different. You talk to the agent on Jan 1, and don't think about him again until Dec 31 when you pay him another visit. Passive.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#384 - 2012-05-14 06:58:49 UTC
Tessla Coil wrote:
I can't dig up the reference I am quoting for the numbers, but I am certain about what I read and saw.


Mea culpa — had forgotten about the dynamic LP store nonsense.

Tessla Coil wrote:
Am I alone in shutting down accounts?


I will not so much be shutting down accounts but letting them lapse as my various forms of income disappear. Maybe I will join FW and make 200M ISK/hr from blowing up other capsuleer's ships? That will not last long before it gets nerfed to oblivion, since that income will distract people from nullsec at which point the null overlords will declare war on FW. No doubt there are enough null drones to stage battles such that they pick and choose which FW store is worth how much for how long. Gaming the system is what they excel at.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#385 - 2012-05-14 07:36:16 UTC
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Let me just throw this in here.

One maxed datacore alt = passive income for one year of about 912.5 million (faction ship cores @125k per)

Training character for sale = passive income for one year 8-11 billion ( Focused @ max training rate)



Nice try, but paying for those 12 months of skilling aint free, and then you don't have a character after you've sold it. The two are not so simply comparable.


Not free since I am paying for the acct. But considering I'd be doing that anyway for the fully skilled character that needs no more training for what I want him to do, not an issue either. Two empty character slots with nothing to use them for but train up 20M SP characters and sell them. Total passive income at no cost for that specific character.

I'd argue the training character income is actually less passive than the datacores. You have to at least log in every couple of days to update the skill queue. Okay, it's not a high level of activity. But a lot of Eve jobs are like that - not intensive activity, but you need to tend to them every once in a while or they stop producing.

The datacore farming is different. You talk to the agent on Jan 1, and don't think about him again until Dec 31 when you pay him another visit. Passive.


That's a pretty lame thing to argue.

If I can be bothered to reset some of my PO2 characters to show time in game, you'd see a total of a couple of hours after 5 months. Do you really want to use that as an argument? I'd say less than a day in game over the course of a year for 10B is about as good as it gets for passive income. About equal with the time in game to collect and market the datacores for under a billion.

Try something a little less contrary next time you post.

Mr Epeen Cool
Francisco Bizzaro
#386 - 2012-05-14 07:55:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Francisco Bizzaro
Mr Epeen wrote:
That's a pretty lame thing to argue.

If I can be bothered to reset some of my PO2 characters to show time in game, you'd see a total of a couple of hours after 5 months. Do you really want to use that as an argument? I'd say less than a day in game over the course of a year for 10B is about as good as it gets for passive income. About equal with the time in game to collect and market the datacores for under a billion.

Try something a little less contrary next time you post.

Not at all. I'm just noting that I haven't been able to log in to the game for a couple of weeks due to travel. My PI is dead. My skill-queue is dead. But my R&D agents are still working. They will continue to work even if I don't log in for the rest of the year. That is not true of those other income sources. It is truly passive income.
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
#387 - 2012-05-14 12:32:28 UTC
To be consistent, they should ban BPO research next.

Once a BPO is researched, you dont have to do anything to keep getting the benefits of research.

Or make all BPO's degrade over time ?
Tessla Coil
Pirannha Corp
#388 - 2012-05-14 13:20:34 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Tessla Coil wrote:
I can't dig up the reference I am quoting for the numbers, but I am certain about what I read and saw.


Mea culpa — had forgotten about the dynamic LP store nonsense.

Tessla Coil wrote:
Am I alone in shutting down accounts?


I will not so much be shutting down accounts but letting them lapse as my various forms of income disappear. Maybe I will join FW and make 200M ISK/hr from blowing up other capsuleer's ships? That will not last long before it gets nerfed to oblivion, since that income will distract people from nullsec at which point the null overlords will declare war on FW. No doubt there are enough null drones to stage battles such that they pick and choose which FW store is worth how much for how long. Gaming the system is what they excel at.



I agree on Goons et al using this to control the datacore market, and by extension, T2 invention costs.
I envision a situation where they their traders get together at the beginning of the month, decide which racial datacores/modules they wish to invest or divest in, then making the necessary trading moves.

Once that is done, they give word for their fleets to wipe out or join whatever faction is necessary to control said factional datacore market.
It will be quite sad / funny watching the goons drop supercap fleets on FW fights and wiping out BOTH sides, to ensure their members are the only ones to generate LP from sov structure kills.

But I am positive this will never, ever happen.
Because Soundwave would never, ever design a mechanism that would benefit his ex-alliance mates, the goons, while hurting so many others.
I say ex-alliance mates, because even though Soundwave did the 2007 Goon presentation at Fanfest, he would never remain a Goon after joining CCP.
Tthat was 5 years ago. I am positive that when he joined CCP, he left all his friends and ingame loyalty at the CCP door, and now designs game mechanisms that are completely neutral, and would never have a Goon / null sec bias.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#389 - 2012-05-14 14:01:20 UTC
Goons have zero presence in FW.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Tessla Coil
Pirannha Corp
#390 - 2012-05-14 14:52:32 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Goons have zero presence in FW.


You are correct, just like they have zero presence in high sec.

Them organizing burn Jita, underwriting 2 different racial ice interdictions, and underwriting Hulkageddon, none of those actions had a presence in high sec.

Goons clearly have no history at all with interfering in other regions of space than null. They have zero financial interest in high sec, and I am sure they will have financial interest in applying pressure in datacore pricing.
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#391 - 2012-05-14 14:55:26 UTC
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
Not at all. I'm just noting that I haven't been able to log in to the game for a couple of weeks due to travel. My PI is dead. My skill-queue is dead. But my R&D agents are still working. They will continue to work even if I don't log in for the rest of the year. That is not true of those other income sources. It is truly passive income.

Unless you used a yearly subscription charge, R&D agents will cancel research as soon as your monthly subscrition ends. You can no longer accumulate RP points on a dead account until its re-subed, CCP killed this back in 2010 pretty much like ghost training.

As for the agents...I didn't even get 3000m3 worth of datacores sitting in a GSC at the moment. Not impressive after a year, 5 agents with level 4in the research for one character. Unless the problem is the fact that everyone is doing it, some with many (and others with multiple of many) maybe the problem....but lol at the fact that as the T2 material requirements shrink the more risk adverse people will become until fewer people are flying T2 ships should the price skyrocket because the supply/demand ends up being out of whack. Grats guys, keep up the work...lets get CCP to just remove T2 ships while we are at it Roll.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#392 - 2012-05-14 15:23:02 UTC
Aqriue wrote:
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
Not at all. I'm just noting that I haven't been able to log in to the game for a couple of weeks due to travel. My PI is dead. My skill-queue is dead. But my R&D agents are still working. They will continue to work even if I don't log in for the rest of the year. That is not true of those other income sources. It is truly passive income.

Unless you used a yearly subscription charge, R&D agents will cancel research as soon as your monthly subscrition ends. You can no longer accumulate RP points on a dead account until its re-subed, CCP killed this back in 2010 pretty much like ghost training.

As for the agents...I didn't even get 3000m3 worth of datacores sitting in a GSC at the moment. Not impressive after a year, 5 agents with level 4in the research for one character. Unless the problem is the fact that everyone is doing it, some with many (and others with multiple of many) maybe the problem....but lol at the fact that as the T2 material requirements shrink the more risk adverse people will become until fewer people are flying T2 ships should the price skyrocket because the supply/demand ends up being out of whack. Grats guys, keep up the work...lets get CCP to just remove T2 ships while we are at it Roll.

Love2BuyHulk

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#393 - 2012-05-14 15:54:04 UTC
Aqriue wrote:

Unless you used a yearly subscription charge, R&D agents will cancel research as soon as your monthly subscrition ends. You can no longer accumulate RP points on a dead account until its re-subed, CCP killed this back in 2010 pretty much like ghost training.

As for the agents...I didn't even get 3000m3 worth of datacores sitting in a GSC at the moment. Not impressive after a year, 5 agents with level 4in the research for one character. Unless the problem is the fact that everyone is doing it, some with many (and others with multiple of many) maybe the problem....but lol at the fact that as the T2 material requirements shrink the more risk adverse people will become until fewer people are flying T2 ships should the price skyrocket because the supply/demand ends up being out of whack. Grats guys, keep up the work...lets get CCP to just remove T2 ships while we are at it Roll.


You are doing it right. It's 2.2 datacores a day, per agent, no matter how you slice it. If you are smart you will make back the 200 mill you spent in skill books in less than 3 months. Then the OMFGWTF profits will just roll in.. soon you will be rocking out free T1 cruisers every month. Roll
Metal Icarus
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#394 - 2012-05-14 16:30:43 UTC
datacore farming...


Way to easy, remove that from the game. Make datacore BPC's come only from sites.

CCP and players will be better off.
Shpenat
Ironman Inc.
#395 - 2012-05-14 16:35:32 UTC
Tessla Coil wrote:
I ran some numbers, based on info pulled from the dev blog.

FW people can buy datacores in a block of 5 for 200K and 200 LP.
Someone else calculated that a T2 abaddon kill is worth 8100.

Say le's say gets 1 tenth of the kill, and gets 800 LP.

So, he goes to the LP store, plunks down 800K, burns his 800 LP, and now has 20 datacores.
20 datacores at a cost of 40,000 each.

Let's say he picked up molecular engineering datacores from a Minne LP store.
They are only used in trivial things like Damage Control II's.
No one would ever need to fit those to a ship, so a completely trivial example, right?
I am sure there won't be a need for that datacore.

In the meantime, the person who did all the standings grind to get the L4 R&D agents, blew 40 million on skillbook, burned who knows how much training time, well, they can get 1.8-2.2 datacores/ day, from this "passive" income, right now.

Let's call it 2 datacores/day. But wait, that is being hammered back to ONE datacore/ day very soon, and gets to pay 10,000 for that datacore.

Meantime, the FW guys are flooding the market with blocks of 20 every time they get one tenth of a T2 fitted BS kill.
Let's not even begin to get into the thousands they get for a sov structure.

So suddenly the Fw guys are flooding the market with datacores that cost them 40,000.
Let's say the FW datacore supplier market decides it wants 100% profit, and they sell for 80,000 each on the market.
Market will decide it, but I think my estimate is not out of whack.

So the R&D guy, he is now getting 1 datacore worth 80,000, less the 10,000 ISK fee, for a total of 70,000 ISK/day.
He was getting 600,000 /day (2 datacores worth 300K each).

600,000 vs 70,000.....Nope, just a slight nerf.
Payback time on that skill book.....40 million / 70,000 = 571 days.

Nicely done Soundwave.


Only slight correction: it is 1.8-2.2 datacores per day per agent. The skillbook you mentioned is needed for accessing multiple agents up to 6. So your final calculation should be: 40 million /70,000/6 = 95 days.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#396 - 2012-05-14 16:43:05 UTC
Francisco Bizzaro wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
That's a pretty lame thing to argue.

If I can be bothered to reset some of my PO2 characters to show time in game, you'd see a total of a couple of hours after 5 months. Do you really want to use that as an argument? I'd say less than a day in game over the course of a year for 10B is about as good as it gets for passive income. About equal with the time in game to collect and market the datacores for under a billion.

Try something a little less contrary next time you post.

Not at all. I'm just noting that I haven't been able to log in to the game for a couple of weeks due to travel. My PI is dead. My skill-queue is dead. But my R&D agents are still working. They will continue to work even if I don't log in for the rest of the year. That is not true of those other income sources. It is truly passive income.


Sorry I didn't realize this whole thing was all about you and your inability to plan ahead with a skill queue. Your little scenario affects less than one tenth of one percent of the current players. Most of whom have a clue.

The 300,000 players not affected by Minmatar brain block are managing just fine.

Mr Epeen Cool
Tessla Coil
Pirannha Corp
#397 - 2012-05-14 17:05:17 UTC
Shpenat wrote:
Tessla Coil wrote:
I ran some numbers, based on info pulled from the dev blog.

FW people can buy datacores in a block of 5 for 200K and 200 LP.
Someone else calculated that a T2 abaddon kill is worth 8100.

Say le's say gets 1 tenth of the kill, and gets 800 LP.

So, he goes to the LP store, plunks down 800K, burns his 800 LP, and now has 20 datacores.
20 datacores at a cost of 40,000 each.

Let's say he picked up molecular engineering datacores from a Minne LP store.
They are only used in trivial things like Damage Control II's.
No one would ever need to fit those to a ship, so a completely trivial example, right?
I am sure there won't be a need for that datacore.

In the meantime, the person who did all the standings grind to get the L4 R&D agents, blew 40 million on skillbook, burned who knows how much training time, well, they can get 1.8-2.2 datacores/ day, from this "passive" income, right now.

Let's call it 2 datacores/day. But wait, that is being hammered back to ONE datacore/ day very soon, and gets to pay 10,000 for that datacore.

Meantime, the FW guys are flooding the market with blocks of 20 every time they get one tenth of a T2 fitted BS kill.
Let's not even begin to get into the thousands they get for a sov structure.

So suddenly the Fw guys are flooding the market with datacores that cost them 40,000.
Let's say the FW datacore supplier market decides it wants 100% profit, and they sell for 80,000 each on the market.
Market will decide it, but I think my estimate is not out of whack.

So the R&D guy, he is now getting 1 datacore worth 80,000, less the 10,000 ISK fee, for a total of 70,000 ISK/day.
He was getting 600,000 /day (2 datacores worth 300K each).

600,000 vs 70,000.....Nope, just a slight nerf.
Payback time on that skill book.....40 million / 70,000 = 571 days.

Nicely done Soundwave.


Only slight correction: it is 1.8-2.2 datacores per day per agent. The skillbook you mentioned is needed for accessing multiple agents up to 6. So your final calculation should be: 40 million /70,000/6 = 95 days.



Sorry, you are correct on the per agent issue. I would suggest the vast, vast majority stop that skill at L4 because of the huge training commitment to L5, and use 5 agents, so payback time is more like 120 days, but we are quibbling.
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#398 - 2012-05-14 22:54:50 UTC
Dang the whining and moaning about datacore farming. I have increased my do not show posts by ____, by a large margin just from this thread alone.

All of you complaining about CCP moving your cheese, should really have a look at THIS.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Kuranei
The Flying Dead
#399 - 2012-05-15 08:18:23 UTC
I guess the ones who actually use there data cores for invention just got completely overlooked. No wander the data cores mostly used cost 300k + now. I have never sold any of my data cores to the market..never. it really gave me the perception of invention was free if I owned the bpo, so I was able to turn a profit quicker than repaying the cost of the cores. I run two Inventors and can burn threw a 1000 cores in less than a day. especially doing anything above cruiser size inventions. So what does this hit mean ?

Just like RL, what happens when a product cost more to make? it will cost more to buy. I will pass on the cost to the consumers. Or stop making said ship until it becomes more profitable. Every Invention/manufacturing tool out there caculates the cost of the data cores to determine or not if a ship is profitable. so yea we know...believe me we know what to make and what not to make. which will create a shortage in said ships, which will drive prices even higher (a viscious cycle). If you guys think paying 160-280mil for T2 ships is expensive now. wait till the supply of mechanical data cores dries up. Which are used in every t2 ship invention. This will create a huge demand for them with a slow supply (Which always catches the eye of those pesky market manipulators Evil) and will create another bottleneck besides moon goo.

Hehe I have no problem with the changes..anyone who is using the data cores as intended will not. Because we will pass that cost on. You think hulks and maruaders, vagabonds and the rest of the nice new shinys cost alot now...We havent seen anything yet ! But hey null -sec is so fat and rich now..they can afford it. Twisted
nat longshot
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#400 - 2012-05-15 08:36:14 UTC  |  Edited by: nat longshot
CCP Sounware put the beer down and listen to what is beening said for once.

Becuase of the moves ccp is makeing everything in the market as double in price allmost. unless this is how ccp is pushing people to buy plexs with real money so they can get isk so ccp makes more money becuase they messed up and had lay off because alot of people to keep ccp open. if thats the case your breaking the game because of greed oh wait we all read the mail you a ccp are ok with greed. Point in case Noble Exchange store ya that idea worked well morons. That did not work so push up game prices high so people buy plexs so they have isk and you get even more cash geezzz what a plan.

The market is messed up you kill the rouge drones and now your killing datacore given the above i see ccp greed clearly now what going to happen when the players say were done and ccp is kill by its own greed. Man the Ceo is nut job if he does the datacore stuff. without the people geting the core T2 price will go though the roof and die off no one will buy it your Morons.

 [13:12:18] CCP Punkturis nat longshot you're a cutie.. OH YAH I WIN!!