These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Inferno And Datacores

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#361 - 2012-05-11 00:02:10 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Salinas Montif wrote:
Llyandrian wrote:

This is a massive nerf of invention based T2 production, months of training now useless, hundred of hours grinding standing up all wasted, prices will rocket. Predictable the main beneficiaries will again be the favoured sons of null-sec.





Again the favors go to the large alliances that already have the T2 BPO market by making research that much more expensive.


Ideally if they wanted to improve the T2 market and increase the FW LP store, they could offer T2 BPCs with better ME and PE on the LP store then could be garnered through invention. Like 1 run BPC with 4ME and 4PE (versus the -4,-4 of an invention BPC). Or multiple run BPCs of 0ME and 0PE. BPC types would be divided among the factions based on the data interface required. Then FW would get the buff it needs, Research of Datacores would get the nerf they aparently want price wise, and everyone would be happy. Sortof.



Personally I started researching for the T2 lottery (back in 2006). And I was furious when the T20 scandle broke. Still am actually thinking about how I had hoped like many others of getting a BPO only to find out the system was rigged for a bunch of good ol boys. But I thought the datacore thing would be a good leveler for T2 BPO monoplies. That of course never panned out.


Also as said before, Datacores do not make a lot of isk as the more they are worth, the more players train up for them and the price drops. So the idea that datacores are some form of passive isk is a myth.

oh well. Roll



Let me get this straight, you want to KILL invention because datacore prices are low? Huh?

T2BPOs don't significantly impact the profitability of the intelligent inventor. More importantly, T2BPOs serve the purpose of keeping marginal markets filled. The idea that Invention didn't cut the T2 BPO owners' monopoly profits off at the taint is ludicrous. It moved the production bottleneck to the R64s. Then another change moved it to Tech where it remains. If T2 BPOs were still the driving force in T2 production, the Tech cartel wouldn't exist as we know it.

Inventors will pass their increased/decreased datacore costs on to the consumer, depending on what's happening in FW or however it's going to work out.

Datacore farmers may be able to pass their costs along or not, depending on how the FW LP turn in turns out. Either way, so long as the cost to extract the datacores is lower than the price of the datacores, you will make a profit. Whether or not it remains a good return on your investment of training and standings grinding is a separate matter.

Oh, and of course Datacores are a passive source of income. They're just not a large one.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Maxpie
MUSE LLP
#362 - 2012-05-11 01:27:26 UTC
Is there some lore reason as to why datacores are no longer going to be made by scientists, but as a result of people fighting other people from a different political faction?

No good deed goes unpunished
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#363 - 2012-05-11 12:37:57 UTC
Maxpie wrote:
Is there some lore reason as to why datacores are no longer going to be made by scientists, but as a result of people fighting other people from a different political faction?


In the same way that US scientists keeps its military secrets to themselves, or Russia, or China, or well you get the point.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Maxpie
MUSE LLP
#364 - 2012-05-11 13:00:59 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Maxpie wrote:
Is there some lore reason as to why datacores are no longer going to be made by scientists, but as a result of people fighting other people from a different political faction?


In the same way that US scientists keeps its military secrets to themselves, or Russia, or China, or well you get the point.


But we, the capsuleers are supposedly the scientists. And we apparently are not bound to assist any particular faction unless we choose to do so. Anyway, I still don't get how the datacores are 'discovered' as a result of one militia fighting another. The A-bomb was created by scientists, it didn't spontaneously appear after the 1000th bombing mission or something.

No good deed goes unpunished
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#365 - 2012-05-11 13:14:52 UTC
Maxpie wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Maxpie wrote:
Is there some lore reason as to why datacores are no longer going to be made by scientists, but as a result of people fighting other people from a different political faction?


In the same way that US scientists keeps its military secrets to themselves, or Russia, or China, or well you get the point.


But we, the capsuleers are supposedly the scientists. And we apparently are not bound to assist any particular faction unless we choose to do so. Anyway, I still don't get how the datacores are 'discovered' as a result of one militia fighting another. The A-bomb was created by scientists, it didn't spontaneously appear after the 1000th bombing mission or something.


You don't create datacores solely by yourself, otherwise why would you need to go to a certain agent or station? If the pod pilot was the only one involved I would be making Mechanical Engineering Cores 24/7 in Jita 4-4. In the end the idea of Militia factions taking control over the scientific discoveries is nothing new and wouldn't be hard to RP into Eve.

Plus from my understanding of the recent the Dev blog they aren't even completely moving datacores to FW, they are only making it easier for them to get. Having a military budget to speed up research for example.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Haulie Berry
#366 - 2012-05-11 14:27:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Quote:
Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly?

We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system.


I'm going to disagree with the "very cool" part. Very cool would be a means of moving production more towards low sec in a logical, believable fashion.

Instead, you've shoehorned an arbitrary relationship between FW and production into place. It's about as logically consistent as, say, asteroids dropping criminal dogtags. Given the ingame concept of what a datacore is, it just doesn't make sense to have to source them primarily from the faction militias.

Starbase charters (with revised pricing) would have made sense. Datacores, though? This just reeks of, "Well, we couldn't come up with a really good idea, so we just went with the first thing that came to mind."

So, +1 for the notion of moving production more toward low-sec, and -10 for the lazy, haphazard implementation.
Guttripper
State War Academy
Caldari State
#367 - 2012-05-11 15:30:26 UTC
Taking a page from listening to CCP Soundwave during the Alliance Tournaments...

Soundwave: "Ummm, so yea, this is going to be so awesome. Removing data cores and putting them with Factional Warfare! Ummm, this is going to be great! Ummm, what do you think of this Kil2?"

Kil2: "Thought we were talking about the tournament fights?"

Soundwave: "Ummm, so Verone, as a low sec pirate, what do you think of this awesome change of mine?"

Verone: "Yea... errr, so factional warfare and data cores go together how...?"

Soundwave: "Yea, so awesome I think. Ummm, let me check out some forum posts before our next match." Soundwave reads a bunch of negative replies before locating his alt character. "Ahhh here is one - from Soundwavealt asks, "You are so great Soundwave, what other changes you have in mind?" Soundwave stares at the camera. "Well ummm, you see, we're thinking about restricting all tech 2 and tech 3 ships to low and null sec space. Ummm, you can sell them in Jita and stuff but ummm, you can only assemble and fly them in low and null! Ummm, so what do you two think about that?"

Kil2 and Verone sit there dumbfounded, speechless.

Soundwave: "Alright, for out next match, ummm, we have Retired Industrialists versus Special Ed Kids... Ummm, two no-name alliances, so we'll skip that and go back to discussing how awesome I am. Verone..."

The alliance tournament cat jumps off the table and runs away.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#368 - 2012-05-11 16:28:05 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:

Starbase charters (with revised pricing) would have made sense. Datacores, though? This just reeks of, "Well, we couldn't come up with a really good idea, so we just went with the first thing that came to mind."


That would make a whole lot more sense (moving all starbase charters into the FW LP store). Especially if CCP would change the rules so that all towers in empire space (including low-sec) have to pay in charters based on who has Sov over the system.

Yes, low-sec towers should require charters. It's empire space.

(POS towers in contested areas would simply have to stock a few hundred of both racial charters. They don't take up much room, so this is not a huge burden.)
Brunaburh
Ever Vigilant Fountain Defenders
#369 - 2012-05-11 17:15:46 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:

Starbase charters (with revised pricing) would have made sense. Datacores, though? This just reeks of, "Well, we couldn't come up with a really good idea, so we just went with the first thing that came to mind."


That would make a whole lot more sense (moving all starbase charters into the FW LP store). Especially if CCP would change the rules so that all towers in empire space (including low-sec) have to pay in charters based on who has Sov over the system.

Yes, low-sec towers should require charters. It's empire space.

(POS towers in contested areas would simply have to stock a few hundred of both racial charters. They don't take up much room, so this is not a huge burden.)


When's the last time you saw an empire ship patrol losec?

Oh, yeah you haven't. Gee, let's put a random change in (starbase charters in losec) because we don't like the datacore changes. I'd love to hear your justification for this.
Haulie Berry
#370 - 2012-05-11 17:18:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Haulie Berry
Brunaburh wrote:

When's the last time you saw an empire ship patrol losec?


From an IC perspective, that's exactly what the militias are - acting agents of the sovereign empires, patrolling the space that their respective empires own.

It makes perfect sense that they would want to collect some form of rent from people who set up shop in those systems. Regardless of whether or not the formal faction navies patrol those systems, they still own them.

What *doesn't* make sense is the militias suddenly becoming the primary purveyor of the universe's engineering knowledge.
Eaorgan Dax
Blood Moon Traders
#371 - 2012-05-11 17:43:15 UTC
Urgg Boolean wrote:
So is the real motivation for this change because Research as a business is costing CCP profits, as in training up my two alts to do R&D and buying PLEX with the profits? Well, I don't do that.


I think you missed school somehow.........
CCP missing profit because people buy plex in game.......... Right.....

Ok, let me help you out there..... PLEX, is bought from CCP, every PLEX in the game has been bought from CCP, so how does CCP not make profit?
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#372 - 2012-05-13 18:37:06 UTC
Let me just throw this in here.

One maxed datacore alt = passive income for one year of about 912.5 million (faction ship cores @125k per)

Training character for sale = passive income for one year 8-11 billion ( Focused @ max training rate)

So by the reasoning in most of this thread (and a few others) we need to nerf SP training massively as it is the highest passive income generator in the game.

Remove passive training? Why not? Wouldn't want someone to make money they didn't work for, right?

Right?

You bunch of morons Roll

Mr Epeen Cool
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#373 - 2012-05-13 21:36:52 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Let me just throw this in here.

One maxed datacore alt = passive income for one year of about 912.5 million (faction ship cores @125k per)

Training character for sale = passive income for one year 8-11 billion ( Focused @ max training rate)



Nice try, but paying for those 12 months of skilling aint free, and then you don't have a character after you've sold it. The two are not so simply comparable.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#374 - 2012-05-13 22:19:22 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Let me just throw this in here.

One maxed datacore alt = passive income for one year of about 912.5 million (faction ship cores @125k per)

Training character for sale = passive income for one year 8-11 billion ( Focused @ max training rate)



Nice try, but paying for those 12 months of skilling aint free, and then you don't have a character after you've sold it. The two are not so simply comparable.


Not free since I am paying for the acct. But considering I'd be doing that anyway for the fully skilled character that needs no more training for what I want him to do, not an issue either. Two empty character slots with nothing to use them for but train up 20M SP characters and sell them. Total passive income at no cost for that specific character.

In other words, completely comparable.

As much as I hate giving away good info that will add to my competition in the character forum, it needed to be said, I guess.

Mr Epeen Cool
Tessla Coil
Pirannha Corp
#375 - 2012-05-13 22:33:49 UTC
I ran some numbers, based on info pulled from the dev blog.

FW people can buy datacores in a block of 5 for 200K and 200 LP.
Someone else calculated that a T2 abaddon kill is worth 8100.

Say le's say gets 1 tenth of the kill, and gets 800 LP.

So, he goes to the LP store, plunks down 800K, burns his 800 LP, and now has 20 datacores.
20 datacores at a cost of 40,000 each.

Let's say he picked up molecular engineering datacores from a Minne LP store.
They are only used in trivial things like Damage Control II's.
No one would ever need to fit those to a ship, so a completely trivial example, right?
I am sure there won't be a need for that datacore.

In the meantime, the person who did all the standings grind to get the L4 R&D agents, blew 40 million on skillbook, burned who knows how much training time, well, they can get 1.8-2.2 datacores/ day, from this "passive" income, right now.

Let's call it 2 datacores/day. But wait, that is being hammered back to ONE datacore/ day very soon, and gets to pay 10,000 for that datacore.

Meantime, the FW guys are flooding the market with blocks of 20 every time they get one tenth of a T2 fitted BS kill.
Let's not even begin to get into the thousands they get for a sov structure.

So suddenly the Fw guys are flooding the market with datacores that cost them 40,000.
Let's say the FW datacore supplier market decides it wants 100% profit, and they sell for 80,000 each on the market.
Market will decide it, but I think my estimate is not out of whack.

So the R&D guy, he is now getting 1 datacore worth 80,000, less the 10,000 ISK fee, for a total of 70,000 ISK/day.
He was getting 600,000 /day (2 datacores worth 300K each).

600,000 vs 70,000.....Nope, just a slight nerf.
Payback time on that skill book.....40 million / 70,000 = 571 days.

Nicely done Soundwave.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#376 - 2012-05-13 22:38:38 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Nice try, but paying for those 12 months of skilling aint free, and then you don't have a character after you've sold it. The two are not so simply comparable.


You get back a character slot in which to train up a new character-for-sale. Training and skilling up for data core production wasn't free either: it cost time that couldn't be used to train something else on the other two characters. If you have two characters trained as far as you want (because the next clone level is too expensive, and you don't want your T2 cruiser specialist to be able to fly a titan, and have no desire for your disposable cyno alt to cost more than a beta clone) that slot is effectively "free".

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#377 - 2012-05-13 22:53:24 UTC
Tessla Coil wrote:
FW people can buy datacores in a block of 5 for 200K and 200 LP.
Someone else calculated that a T2 abaddon kill is worth 8100.


Weren't the values 1M ISK and 1k LP for a block of 5 datacores? Have they sunk this low already just on Singularity?

Tessla Coil wrote:
Meantime, the FW guys are flooding the market with blocks of 20 every time they get one tenth of a T2 fitted BS kill.


With the 1M/1k price point, this is going to be closer to 4 data cores per share of a BS kill, each core costing about 200k ISK. So the floor price for FW data cores will be 200k. Datacore farmers will only be losing about 2/3 of their income (1/2 from the RP nerf, 1/3 from the FW floor putting pressure on the old price of 260k).

The people I'm feeling the most empathy for right now are those who were enjoying Faction Warfare before Inferno. They will be facing a completely different game after Inferno, complete with new players: those who join FW purely for the ISK farming, and will manipulate battles to suit their own avarice.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Tessla Coil
Pirannha Corp
#378 - 2012-05-13 23:15:24 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Tessla Coil wrote:
FW people can buy datacores in a block of 5 for 200K and 200 LP.
Someone else calculated that a T2 abaddon kill is worth 8100.


Weren't the values 1M ISK and 1k LP for a block of 5 datacores? Have they sunk this low already just on Singularity?

Tessla Coil wrote:
Meantime, the FW guys are flooding the market with blocks of 20 every time they get one tenth of a T2 fitted BS kill.


With the 1M/1k price point, this is going to be closer to 4 data cores per share of a BS kill, each core costing about 200k ISK. So the floor price for FW data cores will be 200k. Datacore farmers will only be losing about 2/3 of their income (1/2 from the RP nerf, 1/3 from the FW floor putting pressure on the old price of 260k).

The people I'm feeling the most empathy for right now are those who were enjoying Faction Warfare before Inferno. They will be facing a completely different game after Inferno, complete with new players: those who join FW purely for the ISK farming, and will manipulate battles to suit their own avarice.



I can't dig up the reference I am quoting for the numbers, but I am certain about what I read and saw.
It is buried deep within who knows how many threads screaming about the unfairness of this attack on the players who took the time to grind up the skills on the chars.

And even assuming your numbers are right over mine, a 2/3 hit on income, that is fair??????
It is all going to be irrelevant to me soon enough. The last of my high sec based accounts lapses in early June.
I have and enough of giving CCP money for constant game design changes to my income streams, let alone the constant and increasing attacks in game that CCP clearly revels in.

Am I alone in shutting down accounts?
Maybe. CCP better hope that I am the only one.

Otherwise, it is going to very interesting reading CCP stumble all over themselves to reverse the damage to the subscription base. Who knows, maybe the marketing dept figures that the drop in high sec based subs will be made up for and then some by more people joining in low sec and null sec. Maybe the devs who hate high sec so much have got it right.

We shall see.
Ten Bulls
Sons of Olsagard
#379 - 2012-05-14 00:40:25 UTC
Tessla Coil wrote:
I ran some numbers, based on info pulled from the dev blog.
FW people can buy datacores in a block of 5 for 200K and 200 LP.


"First, the offer requirements in the respective faction LP store will decrease. As such, at the lowest tier, LP store offers will be 4x times more expensive as they are now, while at the highest tier, they will be 4 times as cheap" - http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=28659

"We do realize a 16x multiplier to be quite high, which is why we will keep looking at this situation and change it if need be." - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1278754#post1278754

So that 200k ISK + 200LP isnt very relevent, its actually a floating price, its high point is 16 times its low point
Tessla Coil
Pirannha Corp
#380 - 2012-05-14 01:01:43 UTC
Ten Bulls wrote:
Tessla Coil wrote:
I ran some numbers, based on info pulled from the dev blog.
FW people can buy datacores in a block of 5 for 200K and 200 LP.


"First, the offer requirements in the respective faction LP store will decrease. As such, at the lowest tier, LP store offers will be 4x times more expensive as they are now, while at the highest tier, they will be 4 times as cheap" - http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=28659

"We do realize a 16x multiplier to be quite high, which is why we will keep looking at this situation and change it if need be." - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1278754#post1278754

So that 200k ISK + 200LP isnt very relevent, its actually a floating price, its high point is 16 times its low point


Yes, I read the dev blog, but I don't see how this multiple tier thing is relevant.
Enlighten me.