These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Missions & Complexes

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Post-escalation Incursion Changes

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Aareya
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#81 - 2012-05-10 12:35:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Aareya
Herr Ronin wrote:
Firstly i would like to say on how wrong you are, Incursions needed to be Nerfed, Are you aware that people made insane amount of isk per day, I will give you some Information about my Wallet regarding Incursions.

Herr Ronin's Wallet Review

Isk Per Hour: 130-160 Million

Hours Put In Each Day: 4-6 Hours

How Much Was I Earning: If i was lucky and Blitzing OTA wall's i would be earning : 700 - 900 Million Per Day.


Now you are telling us that CCP didn't need to Nerf Incursions, I think you need to look into the subject a bit more, I am aware that public fleets were not earning that much, Are you aware that there was many Blitzing community's like ISN, There was around five to seven of them, So calculate these community's running two Vanguard fleets 24/7


Ratting in Nullsec: 75-140 million per hour

Yes, the ISK generation of high sec incursions needed to be nerfed. However, for lowsec/nullsec incursions, the ISK payout wasn't too far out-of-balance. Solo ratting is easy, can be done instantly with little coordination. Incursions in lowsec/nullsec require a certain # of participants, coordination, and the necessity to dedicate pilots for scouting, as these fleets attract PVP'ers looking to get expensive kills.

Twitter:   @AareyaEVE
Herr Ronin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2012-05-10 12:54:39 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
CCP Affinity wrote:
Total hypothetical talk here.. but how would you feel about, long-term, Scouts being proper training grounds - mirroring vanguard type risk with more hints/tutorials and less reward? Geared towards settling new members into the community.

personally, i would prefer the sites to be soloable but that's just me. if i were a dev rather than a player, i would probably try and make the scout sites more like VGs but easier, maybe targeted to a 4-5 man battlecruiser gang. that way new players could train target calling and spider tanking (and not be afraid to lose shiny pirate BSs) while more experienced players could still get decent payout by grinding scout sites with three or even only two chars on grid.



So true, CCP needs to make scouts worth while, Like you said for 5-6 people doing them so that they can know what incursions are all about, Maybe with the payout somthing like this.

Scouts - 5.5 Million
Vanguards - 10.5 Million
Assaults - 18.5 Million

At this minute the only reason people run scouts is cause they are waiting in a fleet, They need to make it more appealing to people for them to make use of them.

Regarding the Hacking Tower in a OTA, Just take it out and remove the Mara's due to the Station is repping the Sansha fleet, Leave the Mara in the NMC and take out a Romi or Auga.

I'll Race You For A Amburhgear
Herr Ronin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2012-05-10 13:03:10 UTC
Aareya wrote:
Herr Ronin wrote:
Firstly i would like to say on how wrong you are, Incursions needed to be Nerfed, Are you aware that people made insane amount of isk per day, I will give you some Information about my Wallet regarding Incursions.

Herr Ronin's Wallet Review

Isk Per Hour: 130-160 Million

Hours Put In Each Day: 4-6 Hours

How Much Was I Earning: If i was lucky and Blitzing OTA wall's i would be earning : 700 - 900 Million Per Day.


Now you are telling us that CCP didn't need to Nerf Incursions, I think you need to look into the subject a bit more, I am aware that public fleets were not earning that much, Are you aware that there was many Blitzing community's like ISN, There was around five to seven of them, So calculate these community's running two Vanguard fleets 24/7


Ratting in Nullsec: 75-140 million per hour

Yes, the ISK generation of high sec incursions needed to be nerfed. However, for lowsec/nullsec incursions, the ISK payout wasn't too far out-of-balance. Solo ratting is easy, can be done instantly with little coordination. Incursions in lowsec/nullsec require a certain # of participants, coordination, and the necessity to dedicate pilots for scouting, as these fleets attract PVP'ers looking to get expensive kills.



True but the majority of people like to Bear in high sec, There is risk's in Null and Low that people just do not want to take, So they need to keep the Balance with High Sec and Null Sec, But respect that people like High Sec more than Null, I am one of the people, I just love high sec, Always have done.

I'll Race You For A Amburhgear
Janoun
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#84 - 2012-05-10 13:43:10 UTC
Herr Ronin wrote:
True but the majority of people like to Bear in high sec, There is risk's in Null and Low that people just do not want to take, So they need to keep the Balance with High Sec and Null Sec, But respect that people like High Sec more than Null, I am one of the people, I just love high sec, Always have done.


A lot of people don't mind the risk, but there's a difference between risk and stupidity.
That difference is an AHAC fleet which stands up very well in close range PvP against a wide range of fleet compositions versus a Nightmare / Machariel fleet that acts as a gank magnet and is not a proper PvP gang at all.

Vanguards in lowsec were great, but they're useless now.
Herr Ronin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2012-05-10 15:23:08 UTC
Janoun wrote:
Herr Ronin wrote:
True but the majority of people like to Bear in high sec, There is risk's in Null and Low that people just do not want to take, So they need to keep the Balance with High Sec and Null Sec, But respect that people like High Sec more than Null, I am one of the people, I just love high sec, Always have done.


A lot of people don't mind the risk, but there's a difference between risk and stupidity.
That difference is an AHAC fleet which stands up very well in close range PvP against a wide range of fleet compositions versus a Nightmare / Machariel fleet that acts as a gank magnet and is not a proper PvP gang at all.

Vanguards in lowsec were great, but they're useless now.



Well considering i have had two Gank attempts on me, That is with a Glass cannon fitting, 14 Tornados didn't even kill me, That includes a OGB and me have a full set a Slave's, Unless the Gankers are complete idiots.

It didn't work.

I'll Race You For A Amburhgear
Janoun
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#86 - 2012-05-10 15:57:36 UTC
I'm talking about using those kinds of bling pirate BSes in lowsec, not suicide gankers
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#87 - 2012-05-10 16:03:49 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Aareya wrote:
Herr Ronin wrote:
Firstly i would like to say on how wrong you are, Incursions needed to be Nerfed, Are you aware that people made insane amount of isk per day, I will give you some Information about my Wallet regarding Incursions.

Herr Ronin's Wallet Review

Isk Per Hour: 130-160 Million

Hours Put In Each Day: 4-6 Hours

How Much Was I Earning: If i was lucky and Blitzing OTA wall's i would be earning : 700 - 900 Million Per Day.


Now you are telling us that CCP didn't need to Nerf Incursions, I think you need to look into the subject a bit more, I am aware that public fleets were not earning that much, Are you aware that there was many Blitzing community's like ISN, There was around five to seven of them, So calculate these community's running two Vanguard fleets 24/7


Ratting in Nullsec: 75-140 million per hour

Yes, the ISK generation of high sec incursions needed to be nerfed. However, for lowsec/nullsec incursions, the ISK payout wasn't too far out-of-balance. Solo ratting is easy, can be done instantly with little coordination. Incursions in lowsec/nullsec require a certain # of participants, coordination, and the necessity to dedicate pilots for scouting, as these fleets attract PVP'ers looking to get expensive kills.


The truely INSANE null sec ratting done I beleive in the "Forsaken Hubs (?)" by super CAP Titans was netting 200-300 million an hour.
NULL SEC ISK/salvage loot generation and W-Space sleeper sites often dwarfs Incursions wealth generation in many many areas
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Col Ostomy
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#88 - 2012-05-10 16:09:42 UTC
CCP Affinity please consider reviewing the mail sent to you from Electric Shoe. The information he provides is invaluable and is dead on how low sec runners feel things can be fixed.

Thanks for listening.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#89 - 2012-05-10 16:11:26 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Last night 3-5 hours before down time I was FCing a Vanguard fleet with 2-3 newcommers to Incursions. I DO NOT DARE BRING THEM INTO OTAs. To put it simply: THEY WOULD HAVE DIED. We had the situation once again that in the 4 Vanguard systems of the Amarr incursion was populated by 100% OTAs. I tried to get more logi so we could upgrade to an assault but the numbers were not there ( armor community has been MORE then decimated by the NERF ) I eneded up having to disband Cry

CCP Affinity STACKING OF SITES is a real problem how about putting an exception in the system spawning code so that no Vanguard system becomes 100% OTA's, no Assault system becomes 100% NCN's, or no HQ system becomes 100% TCRC's, PLLLLLEEEEEAAASE
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
CCP Affinity
C C P
C C P Alliance
#90 - 2012-05-10 16:41:24 UTC
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
I think a lot of us would like a simple yes/no answer on the subject of NCNs....is there a plan to re-do them? As is, fleets completely avoid them when possible, and once a system is full of them, the fleet either slows down drastically or simply disbands.

I recommend, at the very least, re-configuring them to single rooms rather than parallel ones, with the whole fleet staying together. Splitting them up drastically lowers the fleet's efficiency, and creates logistics headaches. Tweaking the number of sniper targets would help as well, particularly in the last room.



As I said, I hope to look at an overall Incursion design after we fix the immediate issues. The NCNs would come under that.

♥ CCP Affinity ♥

Follow me on Twitter

Game Designer for EVE Online

Team Astro Sparkle
CCP Affinity
C C P
C C P Alliance
#91 - 2012-05-10 16:42:32 UTC
Col Ostomy wrote:
CCP Affinity please consider reviewing the mail sent to you from Electric Shoe. The information he provides is invaluable and is dead on how low sec runners feel things can be fixed.

Thanks for listening.



Have already read it - will reply to him tomorrow

♥ CCP Affinity ♥

Follow me on Twitter

Game Designer for EVE Online

Team Astro Sparkle
Kodavor
Iz Doge Korp .
#92 - 2012-05-10 16:42:51 UTC
CCP Affinity wrote:
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
I think a lot of us would like a simple yes/no answer on the subject of NCNs....is there a plan to re-do them? As is, fleets completely avoid them when possible, and once a system is full of them, the fleet either slows down drastically or simply disbands.

I recommend, at the very least, re-configuring them to single rooms rather than parallel ones, with the whole fleet staying together. Splitting them up drastically lowers the fleet's efficiency, and creates logistics headaches. Tweaking the number of sniper targets would help as well, particularly in the last room.



As I said, I hope to look at an overall Incursion design after we fix the immediate issues. The NCNs would come under that.


Work in progress . Good . +1
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#93 - 2012-05-10 18:10:54 UTC
Aareya wrote:

Ratting in Nullsec: 75-140 million per hour[/quote]

Not counting the time and isk it took you to:

-Form a corporation of multiple people

-Get that corporation into an alliance that holds sov

-Take or rent a system to rat in (you need an upgraded system, "natural anoms" that don't respawn in the same system provide much less isk.hr lol)

-Buy all the upgrades and the IHUB

-Upgrade the system to military 5

-KEEP the system at military 5

-Pay the rent and sov bills

-Buy, anchor and fuel/maintain a pos in the system if their is no station

-Stop ratting and safe up or change to combat ships when someone not blue comes in

-Stop ratting to go on a cta

-ect ect

"Ratting in an upgraded system" is a group activity, just all the work is done on the front end before hand, so you can THEN make "75 to 140 mil an hour"

As opposed to the whole "buy a couple GTCs or run a buttload of missions", buy shiny ship and minimally shiny fit (or less shiney but much more welcome logi) and x up with ship fit in incursion or incursion community chat in high sec.

Pre-nerf high sec incursions were an abomination.

Quote:

Yes, the ISK generation of high sec incursions needed to be nerfed. However, for lowsec/nullsec incursions, the ISK payout wasn't too far out-of-balance. Solo ratting is easy, can be done instantly with little coordination. Incursions in lowsec/nullsec require a certain # of participants, coordination, and the necessity to dedicate pilots for scouting, as these fleets attract PVP'ers looking to get expensive kills.


Agree totally. My roaming gang lost 2 ships simply PASSING through a null sec incursion yesterday, the people who fleet up and organize to tackle those WHILE people like me are trying to hunt them deserve better isk/hour than anyone else in them (pve) game IMO.
Asmodes Reynolds
Rayn Enterprises
#94 - 2012-05-10 19:01:23 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Aareya wrote:

Ratting in Nullsec: 75-140 million per hour


Not counting the time and isk it took you to:

-Form a corporation of multiple people

-Get that corporation into an alliance that holds sov

-Take or rent a system to rat in (you need an upgraded system, "natural anoms" that don't respawn in the same system provide much less isk.hr lol)

-Buy all the upgrades and the IHUB

-Upgrade the system to military 5

-KEEP the system at military 5

-Pay the rent and sov bills

-Buy, anchor and fuel/maintain a pos in the system if their is no station

-Stop ratting and safe up or change to combat ships when someone not blue comes in

-Stop ratting to go on a cta

-ect ect

"Ratting in an upgraded system" is a group activity, just all the work is done on the front end before hand, so you can THEN make "75 to 140 mil an hour"

As opposed to the whole "buy a couple GTCs or run a buttload of missions", buy shiny ship and minimally shiny fit (or less shiney but much more welcome logi) and x up with ship fit in incursion or incursion community chat in high sec.

Pre-nerf high sec incursions were an abomination.

Quote:

Yes, the ISK generation of high sec incursions needed to be nerfed. However, for lowsec/nullsec incursions, the ISK payout wasn't too far out-of-balance. Solo ratting is easy, can be done instantly with little coordination. Incursions in lowsec/nullsec require a certain # of participants, coordination, and the necessity to dedicate pilots for scouting, as these fleets attract PVP'ers looking to get expensive kills.


Agree totally. My roaming gang lost 2 ships simply PASSING through a null sec incursion yesterday, the people who fleet up and organize to tackle those WHILE people like me are trying to hunt them deserve better isk/hour than anyone else in them (pve) game IMO.


I have said this exact same point, numerous times using a wall of text in many of these threads so thank you, why didn't I think of doing it that way. The only thing that she didn't mention was the effort it takes to defend the space, but if that is miniscule compared to the rest of it

And to get more than I would say about 80 million per hour, you require multiple characters, I make about I would say 100-120 using Tengu with fighters assigned. I usually let the salvage go to a cute newbie in my alliance.

DarthNefarius wrote:

The truely INSANE null sec ratting done I beleive in the "Forsaken Hubs (?)" by super CAP Titans was netting 200-300 million an hour.
NULL SEC ISK generation ( and W-Space ) dwarfed Incursions in many many areas



You are 100% correct on the insane part. I'm not sure the exact amount one would make but that was before the Nerf and it requires a Titan completely fit with officer tracking enhancers and officer tracking computers with scripts!! In case you people at home or wondering that is around 70 billion, and a very hard to attain tracking down that many copies of the same officer mod would be a huge pain. Not to mention that it would be extremely dangerous, stupid, and if you lost it you will probably get kicked out of your alliance. {Sarcastic} CCP should totally balance 0.0 ratting on this. {/Sarcastic}
Herr Ronin
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#95 - 2012-05-10 19:10:36 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Last night 3-5 hours before down time I was FCing a Vanguard fleet with 2-3 newcommers to Incursions. I DO NOT DARE BRING THEM INTO OTAs. To put it simply: THEY WOULD HAVE DIED. We had the situation once again that in the 4 Vanguard systems of the Amarr incursion was populated by 100% OTAs. I tried to get more logi so we could upgrade to an assault but the numbers were not there ( armor community has been MORE then decimated by the NERF ) I eneded up having to disband Cry

CCP Affinity STACKING OF SITES is a real problem how about putting an exception in the system spawning code so that no Vanguard system becomes 100% OTA's, no Assault system becomes 100% NCN's, or no HQ system becomes 100% TCRC's, PLLLLLEEEEEAAASE



If you wish, I can help/Advise you with OTA's on the Kill Order, Get in touch, Via Ingame.

Or on Skype: Herr-Ronin


Regards.

I'll Race You For A Amburhgear
Apolyon I
Shadow of ISW
#96 - 2012-05-10 19:14:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Apolyon I
DarthNefarius wrote:


The truely INSANE null sec ratting done I beleive in the "Forsaken Hubs (?)" by super CAP Titans was netting 200-300 million an hour.
NULL SEC ISK generation ( and W-Space ) dwarfed Incursions in many many areas

have you seen losses while pveing in wh space???

http://rooksandkings.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=36059

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13256025

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13142589

can this happen in HS incursion??
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#97 - 2012-05-10 19:35:02 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:

The truely INSANE null sec ratting done I beleive in the "Forsaken Hubs (?)" by super CAP Titans was netting 200-300 million an hour.
NULL SEC ISK generation ( and W-Space ) dwarfed Incursions in many many areas


#1. They should, at least with regards to high sec incursions

#2. That outrageious figure for Titans is no longer true after the last series of titan nerf. Now Titans have trouble killing even target painted battleships in anomalies. The Titan Ratting isk fountain is gone.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2012-05-10 19:45:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Apolyon I wrote:
DarthNefarius wrote:


The truely INSANE null sec ratting done I beleive in the "Forsaken Hubs (?)" by super CAP Titans was netting 200-300 million an hour.
NULL SEC ISK generation ( and W-Space ) dwarfed Incursions in many many areas

have you seen losses while pveing in wh space???

http://rooksandkings.com/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=36059

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13256025

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13142589

can this happen in HS incursion??

I'd imagine so if you were willing to suffer the loss of those same ships (or greater numbers of lesser ships) to concord retaliation after you made your kills. It would actually be easier I'd think due to the lack of cap ship level tank and EHP to deal with.
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2012-05-10 19:58:29 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Last night 3-5 hours before down time I was FCing a Vanguard fleet with 2-3 newcommers to Incursions. I DO NOT DARE BRING THEM INTO OTAs. To put it simply: THEY WOULD HAVE DIED. We had the situation once again that in the 4 Vanguard systems of the Amarr incursion was populated by 100% OTAs. I tried to get more logi so we could upgrade to an assault but the numbers were not there ( armor community has been MORE then decimated by the NERF ) I eneded up having to disband Cry

CCP Affinity STACKING OF SITES is a real problem how about putting an exception in the system spawning code so that no Vanguard system becomes 100% OTA's, no Assault system becomes 100% NCN's, or no HQ system becomes 100% TCRC's, PLLLLLEEEEEAAASE


we had a Legion go pop right before you came on. Granted, it was not the best fitted Legion either.
Aareya
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#100 - 2012-05-10 20:28:37 UTC
Leave it to DarthNefarius to go off topic and talk about Titans (and quoting information no longer current).

Incursions are a group PVE activity. A group activity that holds more risk than solo activity should not yield less reward. CCP has already diverged from the "one size fits all" approach in that the effects of the incursion are significantly lessened in high sec. High sec incursions do not negatively impact pilots passing through. Outside high sec, you have disruptions in cynosural fields and jump bridges, which have a significant impact to travel. You have Sansha tackling and killing pilots who try to fly through the incursion area. Only in high sec can you fly through and ignore incursions entirely.

So instead of "fix incursions", let's break it down to 2 requests:

1. Fix High Sec Incursions
2. Fix Low Sec and Null Sec Incursions

Incursions are some great group activity. For those living outside high sec, one can run an incursion, build relations with other pilots, make ISK, and experience that thrill of an unexpected PVP engagement. However, with the ship & weapons updates (ohgod blasters!) and the latest change to incursions, the ones outside high sec just aren't that good anymore. Please find a solution to make incursions challenging and fulfilling (i.e. worthwhile) for all regions of space.

Twitter:   @AareyaEVE