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New dev blog: Unified inventory

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Invictra Atreides
Toward the Terra
#521 - 2012-05-10 14:52:07 UTC
It is too BIG. I always have my ships cargohold open no matter what and the new window is too big.

Pls give us an minimalist version also. One that doesn't show volume, ISK and other stuff. Just a rly tiny frame inventory.

Like windows media player when you switch it to minimal view :D

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Dennie Fleetfoot
DUST University
#522 - 2012-05-10 14:54:58 UTC
I thought I'd give it a few days to try Sisi again and see if they have fixed what we told them them fix.

They haven't.

If the the unified inventory system goes on Traq as is they're is going to a lot of ticked of players out there when this P.O.S. hits 22nd May.

This is going to be an unmitigated disaster.

CEO Dust University

CPM 1&2 Member

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Maul555
Xen Investments
#523 - 2012-05-10 14:59:07 UTC
I really need to get some DEV feedback on this. I am watching a freight train hurtling down the tracks into a populated area, and the conductor appears to be asleep, slumped over on the accelerator...
Blue Harrier
#524 - 2012-05-10 15:20:05 UTC
Maul555 wrote:
I really need to get some DEV feedback on this. I am watching a freight train hurtling down the tracks into a populated area, and the conductor appears to be asleep, slumped over on the accelerator...


I have really got to give you a +1 and a like for that reply alone, well done Lol

"You wait - time passes, Thorin sits down and starts singing about gold." from The Hobbit on ZX Spectrum 1982.
Lara Dantreb
Reisende des Schwarzschild Grenze
#525 - 2012-05-10 15:24:57 UTC
8 years I think it is I who am messy, and I discover in this dev blog that in fact it is the user interface that is crap ! Shocked

---   Buying T2 ship bpos since 2005  ---
Maul555
Xen Investments
#526 - 2012-05-10 16:08:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Maul555
CCP. I don't have the luxury of looking over this and deciding if this is a game that I want to get into and spend my time on. I have already invested some 9 years with you guys, I have wasted time, and I am invested. I have been doing things a certain way for 9 years, and you are about to force me to abandon all my current workflows. If this was a brand new game that I had never played, I would probably not get into it because of the unified inventory alone. (its a nice game, too bad its a B!7CH to use) Do not implement changes that interrupt business as usual. You are not a new game, this is not a time to reinvent the wheel and throw it out there on everyone's cars. People have developed habits and procedures that work and serve them well. You cant just kill that off now without serious repercussions.

Think CCP! You have had 9 years of great success with the current windowed interface. The most basic and universal thing in the game, the User Interface. You are talking about throwing out your proven foundation!THINK CCP, THINK!
Tobiaz
Spacerats
#527 - 2012-05-10 17:32:49 UTC
Invictra Atreides wrote:
It is too BIG. I always have my ships cargohold open no matter what and the new window is too big.

Pls give us an minimalist version also. One that doesn't show volume, ISK and other stuff. Just a rly tiny frame inventory.

Like windows media player when you switch it to minimal view :D


You can split off windows.

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Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#528 - 2012-05-10 18:22:52 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:
Invictra Atreides wrote:
It is too BIG. I always have my ships cargohold open no matter what and the new window is too big.

Pls give us an minimalist version also. One that doesn't show volume, ISK and other stuff. Just a rly tiny frame inventory.

Like windows media player when you switch it to minimal view :D


You can split off windows.


Yeah, I like it when doing that. The main thing I find is when sorting stuff for sale, manufacture, I find it quite the handy tool as I get used to it. Some minimizing would be nice though, hide the isk tally and the filters with chevron clicks. Outside of that, the more I use it, the more I begin to like it. I want to do some testing though, haven't done yet because havent been in my cap. If windows stay sticky open when you open more than one. Myself, I like to quick open corp bays, fuel bays and cargo on my carrier and have them along top of monitor. Hopefully they still will do that.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Darth Kilth
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#529 - 2012-05-11 10:45:17 UTC
This new windown system is going to lower work efficiency a lot with the way multiple windows will be handled in the new system, especially the fact that the windows reset and forget their locations constantly.

The system seems great and will certainly benefit players at many points, but with the way it currently is I see a lot of pissed of people next patch.
The current UI is maybe old and lacking, but it works, are you sure fixing what is not broken is a good idea?
May O'Neez
Flying Blacksmiths
#530 - 2012-05-11 14:54:58 UTC  |  Edited by: May O'Neez
I have an industrial alt which relies a _LOT_ on multiple windows. I like to have persistant windows for the hangar (only active when docked), when outside I have my cargohold (with little place on screen so I can check overview, assets and directionnal scan at the same time), and sometimes I have also multiple cargo, specially when salvaging. I'm not even speaking about freighter including multiple containers, which were previously nicely sorted in tab in a separate stacked persistant window (persistant in presence AND order of the tabs, which are both of utmost importance).

Now we have 2 ways:
- either use the unified windows, which forces doing scrolling jutsu and heavy back and forth between window content, tree, drag and drop and pray not misclick when transferring assets
- either duplicate the windows to get the old behavior but loosing a lot of space because the tree on left seems duplicated on each window (correct me if I'm wrong) and does'nt totally disappears even collapsed.

I forecast an heavy increase in micromanagement. Multiple windows are not evil, there are just multiple, I don't understand why it was so important to get rid of them, is there any simplification/optimization behind the scenes which required this ? Now, the feature has been implemented and will be pushed anyway on TQ, so I only hope that some users will find ways to get around or find out an easy and efficient approach in this system to explain to others.
Raiku Onni
CONCORD Research
#531 - 2012-05-11 22:43:35 UTC
Why is estimated value only available as a tooltip? Why can I not have it as a selectable column value?

Why is volume not a selectable column value?

Use case: My 0.0 outpost/FW station/POS is about to be overrun, I need to pack my freighter with the most expensive items per m3 that I can find to maximise the amount of value I can escape with. The UI has all the details I need but makes it impossible to actually find the answer I want.
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#532 - 2012-05-12 14:05:03 UTC
Tiger's Spirit wrote:
- snip - We needto use the old function for easy transfer (shift+click) to treepanel, but pls tell to us if we need to use the old functions for easy transfer between multiple windows, why need the new one ? - snip -

Tiger, you make an excellent point.

I swear to God, the more I play with this, the more I think the "new and improved" tree system is designed specifically to thwart bots and macros at the expense of making it more difficult for the human users. They have designed in a usage paradigm where the layout changes every time you use it, semi-randomly, which it makes it far more difficult for a bot and virtually impossible for a macro.

(An aside: One way to catch bots is by analyzing their database calls and comparing that to the normal database activity of the front-end client. If there are differences, you've probably got a bot reading/writing information not normally available to the human user. Most macros are stupid - some are smart - point and click routines that require a fixed and stable screen layout, so are easily buggered by semi-random layout changes. )

Or is it that CCP is truly stupid enough to introduce a "new and improved" paradigm shifting system that is far less efficient (and far more frustrating) than the original, just to make the back-end code less CPU intensive?

I call upon the Devs/GMs to answer Tiger's question. In my own words : why do we need a new inventory paradigm/front-end if the old works fine? Why not optimize your back-end code while preserving the look and feel of the original inventory system? Have you been recently lobotomized?
Anxiir
#533 - 2012-05-13 04:49:38 UTC
Hang on a second here.

From what I'm gathering from the blog and the general feedback is that I will now have to keep a giant window open blocking the view just to load cap boosters during battle?

I thought this was a replacement of the assets window.Ugh
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#534 - 2012-05-13 04:55:55 UTC
…here's another fun bug, from the current (371805) build:

Buy stuff for your corp at a station where your corp doesn't have an office.
The stuff will, as usual, be delivered to your corp delivery hangar.
Your corp delivery hangar sorts under the Corp Hangar tree in the inventory.
You have no Corp Hangar in the station.
…so your corp deliveries cannot be reached.

You have to go through the Corp window → Assets → Deliveries and then deliver it to a pilot in order to get a hold of the stuff, and since this window is on a 5-minute delay (± fiddling with the range setting, which occasionally forces an update), you're stuck waiting when you buy stuff for your corp.

facepalm.jpg
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#535 - 2012-05-13 09:23:06 UTC
Thank you for all the hard work CCP, but tbh, why tinker with the inventory windows at all? instead of improving usability, the new inventory window(-s) might just gonna be reducing the overall functionality of the inventory functions. In my opinion, inventory window works fine as is.

What you guys at CCP should really look at in my opinion should be the overview, selected target, locked targets, drones, fleet, broadcasts and watchlist, if you want to improve usability as in reducing the screen space consumption by remodelling something to a more ergonomic design, these windows should be the ones you focus on.

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
Rammix
TheMurk
#536 - 2012-05-13 18:08:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Rammix
Tiger's Spirit,

Compare, Windows Explorer
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/254/45014286.jpg/
and Old UI
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/233/oldui.jpg/

Total Commander
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/829/86023596.jpg/
and New UI
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/109/newuiu.jpg/

And seems you don't understand the meaning of "multi-". It means "many". That is why Total Commander is absolutely NOT multi-windowed. If devs add split-view option to the new UI, it will be exactly like Total Commander (without plugins). But even now it's much closer to TC than to WinExplorer.

p.s. I'd say, new UI is like TC with one half in tree mode.

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Covert cyno in highsec: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296129&find=unread
Malice Redeemer
Kenshin.
Fraternity.
#537 - 2012-05-13 20:02:44 UTC
I guess at least I have 30 more bucks to spend on other things next month, that's cool. 'Im sure after a few they will figure out what pissed everyone off again, and fix it. See you guys then.
Shannae Darkehart
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#538 - 2012-05-13 20:21:07 UTC
TheLostPenguin wrote:
Ok so just a few minutes ago whilst thinking about this I had something of a brainwave, which I think would alleviate many of my personal and indeed other peoples issues with usability: Allow us to have inventory windows lock when pinned! Now this totally sounds like the "lock when pinned" option we already have that prevents moving/resizing windows but that's not what I mean, rather that when pinned inventory windows should lock to showing whatever they are showing at that time (unless explicitely modified by the player), irrespective of whatever other operations you carry out with opening/closing other inventory windows.

How would this end up working? Well say like myself and others you like to always (or nearly always) have active ship cargo open, you would shift-click to get this into its own window, set it up where you wanted and pin it. Now regardless of whatever else you do this window would persist showing active ship cargo, you could operate other inventory windows freely without impacting that window, or as happens now the client trying to use it for the next open-inventory event. Of course this would work with as many inventory windows as required, so we could setup a whole bunch showing whichever inventory location we wanted (ie corp hangers, fuel/ore bays) with whichever filter(s) applied that we wanted and they'd persist in that state untill either the user closed or modified them to show something else.

In particular this would be awesome in station as well as 'fixing' the cargohold/loot can issue (I imagine it being possible to have a window setup that shows 'cargoinspace' type windows only that would open/display nearby wrecks/cans in its tree as appropriate), as you could have multiple inventories pinned open with diferent filters applied meaning you could not only reproduce current functionality whereby everytime you dock ship hangar/station items hangar are already open, but you could also have many more windows filtered to each show say hardeners/ammo/BPOs/minerals only, giving you quick access to what you frequently want without having to manually apply filters each time, and with all those 'core' inventory windows pinned+locked you can freely open/close and modify a single inventory window to 'work' with.

Now just have to wonder how hard/not it would be to implement this behaviour...


This is basically my only gripe with the system, and while I can live with it easily enough, the solution proposed here is also what I consider the ideal end user experience.

I'm sorry if you feel there's a legitimate reason for botting but there isn't and that's basically that. Not liking a game doesn't entitle you to cheat. Ever. At all. Enough with the moral equivalency please. ~CCP Sreegs
Tiger's Spirit
Templars of the Shadows
#539 - 2012-05-13 21:29:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiger's Spirit
Rammix wrote:
Tiger's Spirit,

Compare, Windows Explorer
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/254/45014286.jpg/
and Old UI
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/233/oldui.jpg/

Total Commander
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/829/86023596.jpg/
and New UI
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/109/newuiu.jpg/

And seems you don't understand the meaning of "multi-". It means "many". That is why Total Commander is absolutely NOT multi-windowed. If devs add split-view option to the new UI, it will be exactly like Total Commander (without plugins). But even now it's much closer to TC than to WinExplorer.

p.s. I'd say, new UI is like TC with one half in tree mode.



Oh man, You are an idiot. The TC is dual panel system with same or other location the W exlorer is not.

Windows Explorer : http://www.kephost.com/view3.php?filename=rq1cvunejlyx5xnjn29l.jpg
New Inventory system: http://www.kephost.com/view3.php?filename=qg3ntf0s3n3svpuke6ra.jpg

Same like two twin.

But the TC is different : http://tcup.eu/tcup/screeny/003.png same when two different windows open in same time and the user can browsing copying deleting to same or other locations. Just such the old inventory system, with separated and different windows.



Just watch the video from Unified Inventory fails and go to hell with your idiotic try with opened four Explorer and etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHJ_gL3vzmM

This is the prove why crap the new inventory system. Fails and mistakes.
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#540 - 2012-05-14 05:01:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakaru Ishiwara
Inappropriate post removed. Spitfire

Oh dear, my very first post *ever* censored by CCP. At least we know that CCP is monitoring this thread. Pirate

Whether they decide to re-engage with their subscribers on the topic of the proposed inventory changes is another story. Roll

Also: Really great video, Tippia. If the CCP designers and this project's executive sponsor aren't convinced that they have an abortion of a feature, then we know that either something is rotten at CCP or that CCP is implementing this feature for some other reason than client-side usability.

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.