These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page12
 

The Pros and Cons of Removing Static Belts. A discussion

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Spurty
#21 - 2012-05-09 11:18:44 UTC
What's all this then?

Exploration in space?

Say it ain't so!


Belts are currently beacons/locations for fights to occur with npcs in them for when no players are there.

I'm positive that we're not populated enough for what you ask to be viable yet.

Works in wormholes due to the nature of how dwellers exist, forced to live two steps evolved from dwellers of known space.

It would be a bit too tough on the average casual player. For null
Sec, I don't mind this idea. Elsewhere, don't think the average player is ready

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Freggan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-05-09 11:23:50 UTC
Tobiaz wrote:
Biggest PRO for dynamic belts: roid scarcity in high population areas

Supply of materials, production and consumption shouldn't all be possible within a few jumps of each other.


Dude space is big, intended that way so how close is close in your mind?
Aline Kia
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-05-09 11:23:52 UTC
Freggan wrote:
Roime wrote:
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:
Roime wrote:
Just make resources deplete over time.

New Eden needs more dynamic, evolutional mechanics. After months, the most mined systems would be void of asteroids, and would take months before new belts would start to form.

Same with moon resources and NPCs. Enough ratting, and the pirates would move elsewhere. Left in peace, they would grow stronger, take over gates and build starbases, and start raiding neighborhood systems. Rogue drones, if not killed, would multiply and swarm regions.

People would need to move, adapt and fight for resources.


Sounds too good to happen.


A really dynamic, responsive New Eden is my favourite pipe dream Cool

There's so much room for development in this area. Economy (taxes, customs fees), industrial and residential development (NPC-built structures and traffic), system security status (crime (both NPCs and players) and crimefighting in form of bountyhunting, ratting and missions), Empire borders (FW) and hell, what about environmental changes like pollution, comets and star lifespans?

But as Incursions showed us, CCP does not seem interested in changing things in this direction. Incursion systems should have definitely become lowsec, and Sansha influence should have spread from system to system unless stopped.


I played a game that had that implemented, wish i could remember its name? More often than not nothing could be done about the drones/bugs/monster left unhindered and they took over systems and made the game annoying until the server resets.



+1 to Dynamic EvE everyday of the year...

As for the systems that get taken over, as long as the rewards increase with time/difficulty pilots will move there... I can't see this being a problem, just look to how organised hisec incursion bears are despite the long held opinion hisec dwellers could never organise and work together....

The only problem would be dynamic sec status related to player activity at least when you consider systems like Jita, Niarja etc.... I mean these places see the most ganking activity and if their sec status dropped as a result you would dramatically effect logistics to domain (amarr) and the rest of new eden... if this would eb implemented a suitable counter measure to increase sec status would need to be introduced...

Luckily with CCP reworking Crimewatch this is a possibilty... increase sec by shooting of suspects and criminals... the vigilante profession becomes viable. Another possibilty is to join a concord FWish type entity to have players help in the policing of space... just throwing the idea out there....
JitaPriceChecker2
Doomheim
#24 - 2012-05-09 11:24:09 UTC
Roime wrote:


A really dynamic, responsive New Eden is my favourite pipe dream Cool

There's so much room for development in this area. Economy (taxes, customs fees), industrial and residential development (NPC-built structures and traffic), system security status (crime (both NPCs and players) and crimefighting in form of bountyhunting, ratting and missions), Empire borders (FW) and hell, what about environmental changes like pollution, comets and star lifespans?

But as Incursions showed us, CCP does not seem interested in changing things in this direction. Incursion systems should have definitely become lowsec, and Sansha influence should have spread from system to system unless stopped.


As for incursion yeah people also should be able to join sansha forces. So much wasted potential.
Aline Kia
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-05-09 11:26:36 UTC
Oh and I like the idea of hisec gravs (to get back on topic, tangent brought up was too good to ignore)

I'd say keep the regualr belts, reduce the respawn rate aka less reward to those who put no effort in.

Increase the number of grav sites, to reward those that actually put effort to find their ore... sort of null sec mining on training mode.
Freggan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#26 - 2012-05-09 11:29:48 UTC
Aline Kia wrote:
Freggan wrote:
Roime wrote:
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:
Roime wrote:
Just make resources deplete over time.

New Eden needs more dynamic, evolutional mechanics. After months, the most mined systems would be void of asteroids, and would take months before new belts would start to form.

Same with moon resources and NPCs. Enough ratting, and the pirates would move elsewhere. Left in peace, they would grow stronger, take over gates and build starbases, and start raiding neighborhood systems. Rogue drones, if not killed, would multiply and swarm regions.

People would need to move, adapt and fight for resources.


Sounds too good to happen.


A really dynamic, responsive New Eden is my favourite pipe dream Cool

There's so much room for development in this area. Economy (taxes, customs fees), industrial and residential development (NPC-built structures and traffic), system security status (crime (both NPCs and players) and crimefighting in form of bountyhunting, ratting and missions), Empire borders (FW) and hell, what about environmental changes like pollution, comets and star lifespans?

But as Incursions showed us, CCP does not seem interested in changing things in this direction. Incursion systems should have definitely become lowsec, and Sansha influence should have spread from system to system unless stopped.


I played a game that had that implemented, wish i could remember its name? More often than not nothing could be done about the drones/bugs/monster left unhindered and they took over systems and made the game annoying until the server resets.



+1 to Dynamic EvE everyday of the year...

As for the systems that get taken over, as long as the rewards increase with time/difficulty pilots will move there... I can't see this being a problem, just look to how organised hisec incursion bears are despite the long held opinion hisec dwellers could never organise and work together....

The only problem would be dynamic sec status related to player activity at least when you consider systems like Jita, Niarja etc.... I mean these places see the most ganking activity and if their sec status dropped as a result you would dramatically effect logistics to domain (amarr) and the rest of new eden... if this would eb implemented a suitable counter measure to increase sec status would need to be introduced...

Luckily with CCP reworking Crimewatch this is a possibilty... increase sec by shooting of suspects and criminals... the vigilante profession becomes viable. Another possibilty is to join a concord FWish type entity to have players help in the policing of space... just throwing the idea out there....


All good, would be nice if ccp had a "measuring stick" on balance to do with high sec pvp. If it was overly unbalanced or anything then bounty hunters could be given cool bonuses until its evened out a little P
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#27 - 2012-05-09 12:16:16 UTC
Spurty wrote:
What's all this then?

Exploration in space?

Say it ain't so!


Belts are currently beacons/locations for fights to occur with npcs in them for when no players are there.

I'm positive that we're not populated enough for what you ask to be viable yet.

Works in wormholes due to the nature of how dwellers exist, forced to live two steps evolved from dwellers of known space.

It would be a bit too tough on the average casual player. For null
Sec, I don't mind this idea. Elsewhere, don't think the average player is ready


Indeed the lack of a beacon is a con, though the same possibilities of fights and NPC ratting is still possible, it just requires a extra step in scanning them down. Nothing in Eve should be effortless so while some might look at having to add the step of scanning **** down redundant, I see it as making things a little more dynamic and interesting, in comparison to the current style of belt hopping. As to whether or not people are ready for this is hard to say, however adapt or die has always been the theme.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#28 - 2012-05-09 15:22:41 UTC
My $0.02 on "ring mining":

  • Create a ring in the system with an inner orbit at (whatever AU) and an outer orbit at (whatever AU) + (variance).

  • Make all static belts anomalies that spawn within the ring. No special equipment to scan them down, but you can't just warp to them without a bit of effort.

  • Add scannable belts to the ring with probe strengths in relation to the ore/resources that spawns there. True-sec should determine what the maximum resource type spawn is.

  • Static and scannable belts move every day, meaning you can't **** them up with tons of GSCs. Side effect: This can also provide infinite reference points for creating bookmarks.

  • Scannable belts should have decent rat spawns in relation to their probe strength, which might make it worth your while to bring along some friends in combat ships. Static belts should have the normal rat spawns. Side effect: belt ratting just became a bit more interesting.

  • Add any other scannable sites to the ring area as needed, and I would also suggest expanding the spawn area for other scannable sites, since they generally seem to spawn within a sphere with half the radius of the system (at least, that's where I normally find them...) Do the same for mission areas. Help make space big.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Nephilius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-05-09 16:58:41 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:

Perhaps there should be 'more' of that ore in riskier space, but it is seems very artificial that it just happens to be split along the exact boundaries that concord support.


This has always broken immersion for me. The ores available in any given solar system should not be dependant on the security within that system, but rather by the chemical make-up of that star system. Supernovae dictate that aspect, it doesn't take a degree in astronomy to understand that.

People talk about risk versus reward, but these days, it doesn't matter what part of the galaxy you play in, it's pretty damn dangerous to be a miner.

"If."
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#30 - 2012-05-09 19:02:36 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
So out of curiosity I'm wondering on how other feel about the removal of static astroid belts in all space. Now obviously before people start crying, this is not the complete removal of mining in high sec. However switching static belts to special grav sites that need to be scanned down. This would apply to all space(minus 1.0 starter systems for the true newbies) and would not so much change the contents of the belt. Grav sites would still be a separate site due to the increased rarity of ore found there.

List of Pros and Cons that I can think of:

Pros:
-Making mining somewhat more dynamic. Instead of just warp to astroid belt 2 and mine.
-Hinder bots somewhat. Though not by much.
-Due to added steps could mean mining would be slightly more profitably due to increased ::effort::.
-Ganking would be slowed down a bit since instead of belt hopping looking for targets, people will have to scan you or the belt down.
-Static belts don't make sense in the first place. Why would the same asteroid belts be in the same place every day, even though they are mined completely.
-It would better prepare newbie miners for null and WH mining since they actually have to rely on scanning skills, which is needed when mining outside of high-sec.

Cons:
-Increased ::effort:: for miners
-Miners would actually have to learn scanning skills.
-Creates a larger skill requirement for newbie miners to start the profession.
-Belt ratting wouldn't exist anymore(sucks for those trying to fix sec status).
-Less celestials to use and hop points and to instigate fights.

This idea was brought up awhile ago though don't remember all the reasons against it. So curious on how others think of this system and what pros/cons to having this system may have.



This has been discussed by CCP for some time (I talked to some devs about it when I was in CSM 2).

I think it is inevitable we get some shift to dynamic resources. I'd like to see a range from easy to find to full on probing like grav sites today. The easy to find ones might be in the vicinity permanent markers and the actual ore could be easily spotted from that location. The harder to find and more rewarding from there.

I hope some variation of this gets into Eve as part of a bigger "making mining better" set of miner love content!

Issler
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2012-05-09 19:47:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Stormshadow
I believe that having more grav sites in hisec would be good thing. I also believe that some of the ore types already existing in hisec belts could be moved to exist only in these grav sites. These grav sites could also have small amounts of higher value ores like they have today. However those kind of sites should remain rather rare.

Removing asteroid belts from systems is another issue which probably divides opinions to many direction. Personally as miners point of view I would probably leave them visible in overview, nerf the ores available in them all and make them re spawn slower. Then I would create few new hidden belts (or hide part of the existing ones) which are always in same place but do not show in overview. You would have to scan those at least once or obtain bookmark from somewhere.

This way there would be 3 different mining areas in hisec.
- Slowly regenerating standard static belt with basic ores.
- Slowly regenerating hidden static belt with basic ores, less competition and more safety.
- Common non static grav site with better ores and basic ores.
- Uncommon non static grav site with small amounts of higher quality ores.

Something between these lines... Obviously there could be many kinds of grav sites following the basic concept.

From combat pilots perspective removing/hiding the asteroid belts all together would give less warp points and remove ratting opportunities in null. Obviously these could be replaced with almost any combat outposts you can think of.

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest
Adunh Slavy
#32 - 2012-05-09 19:50:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Adunh Slavy
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Miners would actually have to learn scanning skills.



Could just use the onboard scanner while at a planet or the local star. No need to muck things up with the extra scanning. Besides, noobs need to be able to find things too.

Edit - it could work like this ... https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=98831

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Fluffy Sheep
Contra Operative Knights
#33 - 2012-05-09 20:59:25 UTC
I'm pure Indy and seem to have a disability when it comes to scanning. I've watched all the instructional videos, fitted a scanning ship and spent enough hours trying to know it's not my thing.

If it was ever changed so that scanning was a prerequisite for being able to find rocks, I'd be screwed. I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one either. Like many other rock shooters, I just play to relax. Keep at least some of it simple. For me, It's already difficult enough as it is in my handicap paper boat with the tassels and flags that have things like "shoot me, I'm a WoW ******" written all over them.

Don't make me any more of a handicap than I already am.
Ditra Vorthran
Caldari Imports and Exports
#34 - 2012-05-09 23:15:23 UTC
I a) love exploration, and b) love mining, and even c) like PI, so I like the ideas thus far presented.

Not sure how well a ‘heat map’ idea would work though. I’d think the griefers would rejoice over this given the increase in gankage potential. Hard to pay attention to the overview then you’re staring at a heat map.

I don't know how a big a deal this is but I read a great blog by Jester where he talks about various aspects of how the drone poo/meta 0 nerf would give a buff to EU miners due to when downtime happens and the respawning of asteroid belts. To sum, because downtime happens around EU primtime, they get first pick of respawned belts. With this theoretical change to exploration mining, maybe create a system of random respawn timers as well, especially since we’re looking at making mining more dynamic? Not sure exactly how this would work though. Imagine being in a belt mining away when suddenly, your belt gets marked to respawn in a different area and everything just vanishes. :P

"Miners mine so I don't have to." ~Metal Icarus
Citizen Smif
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2012-05-09 23:18:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Citizen Smif
Brooks Puuntai wrote:


Cons:
-Increased ::effort:: for miners
-Miners would actually have to learn scanning skills.
-Creates a larger skill requirement for newbie miners to start the profession.
-Belt ratting wouldn't exist anymore(sucks for those trying to fix sec status).
-Less celestials to use and hop points and to instigate fights.

This idea was brought up awhile ago though don't remember all the reasons against it. So curious on how others think of this system and what pros/cons to having this system may have.



Every one of these points apart from the last should be in the pro list imo. Belt ratting for fixing sec status sucked anyway, was a horrific grind - hopefully a more engaging method, that can be done in groups, will pop up in its place.

One obvious pro you did miss though is the hindrance to botting.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#36 - 2012-05-09 23:19:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Ditra Vorthran wrote:
I don't know how a big a deal this is but I read a great blog by Jester where he talks about various aspects of how the drone poo/meta 0 nerf would give a buff to EU miners due to when downtime happens and the respawning of asteroid belts. To sum, because downtime happens around EU primtime, they get first pick of respawned belts. With this theoretical change to exploration mining, maybe create a system of random respawn timers as well, especially since we’re looking at making mining more dynamic? Not sure exactly how this would work though. Imagine being in a belt mining away when suddenly, your belt gets marked to respawn in a different area and everything just vanishes. :P

It happens right now with grav sites. A bunch of hulks can strip a grav site of the ABC and leave the others for US time zone people.

Then you eat the bad ore or wait 3 days for respawn, but ah, it's all gone before you log on again.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#37 - 2012-05-10 00:04:27 UTC
Issler Dainze wrote:

This has been discussed by CCP for some time (I talked to some devs about it when I was in CSM 2).

I think it is inevitable we get some shift to dynamic resources. I'd like to see a range from easy to find to full on probing like grav sites today. The easy to find ones might be in the vicinity permanent markers and the actual ore could be easily spotted from that location. The harder to find and more rewarding from there.

I hope some variation of this gets into Eve as part of a bigger "making mining better" set of miner love content!

Issler


My thoughts exactly. I knew the idea was mentioned in the CSM but not to the extent. The idea of in a sense having 2 types of Grav sites, one being what static belts would be moved to, which would have less rare ore and easier to scan, and the other being the normal grav sites with even more rare ore but harder to probe. Now having the scanning for the first one be onboard or probing would be debatable, but either way would be better then the static nature of the current system.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Flamespar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#38 - 2012-05-10 00:10:06 UTC
Yes to dynamically respawning and depleatable asteroid belts.

You could even link this to adding comets, which could be one of the means by which asteroid fields get refreshed.

Since the arival of comets are normally known in advance. This coud result in encouraging a military buildup in a system where a particularly large and rich comet is about to pass through.
Previous page12