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@CCP: Extrinsic Damage Amplifier Balancing

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Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#121 - 2012-05-08 02:37:13 UTC
JEBUS CRIPES, just shut up about the module being a low slot. CCP has put the hammer down, and it is a low slot module, PERIOD, FULL STOP, END OF DISSCUSSION. Deal with it, or quit, (if you do can I haz ur stuffs?) your choice. Just stop whining and complaining that "it must be a highslot," abloo bloo bloo.

Now, let's talk about the stats CCP is kicking around. Frankly the 12/15% is a bit anemic, 15/20% seems about right, tho not fantastic. Drone damage is still weak even with these numbers, but CCP can adjust the numbers later if they are still sittning on the shelf next to sensor damps.(Jebus why did I train Gallente?Cry) Next lets look at CPU, 20/25 for CPU is still going to gimp a lot of ships, but CPU rigs are coming, so while not great, there are going to be options on the table to make it not so bad.

And everybody forgets the poor Arbitrator.Sad

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
LaserzPewPew
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#122 - 2012-05-08 06:09:29 UTC


First point TLDR: The Drone Damage Module's CPU cost is excessive.

Drone boats have low CPU's. This new drone module stands to cramp fits excessively. The sentry damage rig still stands to increase damage per CPU spent than the Drone Damage module even after the buff to ~15%. This is wrong. If the sentry rig isn't being used heavily, than this module isn't going to be used heavily. Nor is it going to improve the viability of drone boats in any aspect of the game.

If the EFT warriors are scared, add a role bonus to the Domi, Ishtar, Gila and other drone boats to reduce the CPU cost of drone upgrade modules.

Second point TLDR: The drone damage module should be on par with the other damage bonus modules @~22%.

A Domi with a set of Ogre II's (the slowest, worst tracking, highest dps drones available) does 475 dps without a damage mod at max skills.

A Raven with a rack of torps puts out 574 dps at max skills.

A Maelstrom with 800mm puts out 531 dps at max skills.

An Apoc with Mega Pulse Lasers puts out 554 dps at max skills.

A Hyperion with Neutron Blasters puts out 679 dps at max skills.

Yes, the Domi has turret slots, but each of these other battleships also have drone bays and can all carry a set of light and medium drones.

Note: almost anything with a MWD can outrun an Ogre, rendering it useless in very short order. It can also be shot, effectively defanging the Domi. Heavy drones consume a large portion of a drone boat's drone bay, shooting them cripples the weapon system altogether.

Bottom line: The drone damage module should be ~22%.


Third Point TLDR: The drone upgrade modules are spread too thin.

The Drone Navigation and Omnidirectional Tracking Links see very little use and, even combined, will likely still see little use. The Drone Link Augmentor is a highslot and is often ignored as the CPU cost it entails is absurd. Especially for the already gimpy CPU's that drone boats possess.

Drone speed, optimal, falloff, tracking, and control range should be combined in a way that makes sense.

Often a drone loses range on a target, even while the target isn't using propulsion (specifically heavy drones). Drone MWD speed increases should be changed to effect the base speed of drones to allow them to stay in range to hit the target. Lastly, drones wait until the target is out of their falloff before kicking on their MWD, perhaps this could be changed without causing the hamsters to go on strike.

Thank you for your time,
-Laserz
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#123 - 2012-05-08 06:35:29 UTC
Why not just get rid of the bays on most other ships. Why does every single ship get a drone bay these days? I say stick to the entire gal federation as it is their niche, and racial drone boats, I.e. Arbitrator hull.

It buffs the gal nicely, and gives them a reason to exist outside of cap ships.

On the EDA note, having played around in my new Ishtar I will agree, the CPU on this thing is terrible. It is atrociously hard to fit it out using drones as a primary dps method.

The Link augmentor is useless, drone range is already past max locking distance (75km). So I threw on a salvage/tractor beam in the highs (pve ishtar). Mids I used two nav computers and an omni tracking computer.

This setup makes the drones pretty nice, but it is completely useless in PVP. I have no mids tackle, and no CPU to support them anyway, Sure the drones are fast but they can't scram a target for me.

I had to downsize to the medium size guns since the CPU on them was too high. So I do crap turret dps (around 90 or so) outside of the drones.

The problem seems to be less the EDA requirements are too high, and more a lack of CPU on drone boats. When so much of our DPS is dependent on drone boosting modules, having such terrible CPU is cripping. I had to use a co-proc 2 AND an electronics implant to get everything to fit right.
Five Thirty
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#124 - 2012-05-08 15:09:24 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
Why not just get rid of the bays on most other ships. Why does every single ship get a drone bay these days? I say stick to the entire gal federation as it is their niche, and racial drone boats, I.e. Arbitrator hull.


Battleships and Battlecruisers have drone bays to field light drones as a defense against frigates.
Tankn00blicus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2012-05-08 19:07:43 UTC
Five Thirty wrote:
Battleships and Battlecruisers have drone bays to field light drones as a defense against frigates.
Don't you mean they have drone bays to field ECM drones as a defense against anything?
Shea Valerien
House of Valerien
#126 - 2012-05-08 19:28:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Shea Valerien
Pesadel0 wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I updated the modules slightly, it should be out on Sisi no later than Monday.

I reduced the CPU slightly (to 30 and 35 for t1 and t2 respectively)

I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively.

Unfortunately, due to how drones work in the backend, I can't affect their RoF. But we should be able to tweak the other numbers to make the module on par with the damage amplifiers for other weapon types.

Is there a specific reason for wanting to keep their overall effect on damage output lower than their counterparts for other weapons systems?



Maybe perhaps it would make them overpowered,.


LONG ways to go to make drones overpowered. There's a reason they're the forgotten weapon choice when it comes to PVP unless you're in a carrier. Even successful PVP Myrms don't rely heavily on drone damage because they're underperforming. Domi PVP reliant on drones as a main weapon system right now? lol.

My guess is you're just protecting your own interests here (e.g. you don't use drones).
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#127 - 2012-05-08 20:52:18 UTC
Five Thirty wrote:
PinkKnife wrote:
Why not just get rid of the bays on most other ships. Why does every single ship get a drone bay these days? I say stick to the entire gal federation as it is their niche, and racial drone boats, I.e. Arbitrator hull.


Battleships and Battlecruisers have drone bays to field light drones as a defense against frigates.


canes and drakes need protection from frigates?
Shish Tukay
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#128 - 2012-05-09 00:11:09 UTC
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
JEBUS CRIPES, just shut up about the module being a low slot. CCP has put the hammer down, and it is a low slot module, PERIOD, FULL STOP, END OF DISSCUSSION


From the people who brought you "It's tradition so it's right" and "Those in power said so so it's right", a more modern logical fallacy: "I'M USING CAPS LOCK SO I'M RIGHT" P

Link to hammer being put down? I have seen a dev say "v1 was low slot, v2 was kept as low slot, we're still looking for further feedback before it goes live", I haven't seen a dev say "it is low slot for reasons A / B / C, requests for high slot are invalid because X / Y / Z, we are no longer interested in player feedback"~
Mariner6
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#129 - 2012-05-09 00:24:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Mariner6
Just finished some time on Sisi very excited about the changes....not so much now.

No one blinks an eye at the thought of putting a gyrostab on a winmatar assault frig, but try putting this "extrinsically" poor mod on an Ishkur. Could not find a fit I like with it that wasn't completely gimped. Its not like its much damage increase, like 12 dps with one? silly. Much better off with guns. Why CCP? Why?

Agree with nearly everything on this post. Definitely should be a high slot mod. Much more damage % increase needed. No where near enough CPU on the ships that need these or, conversely, the mods eat up too much CPU. One of the two needs to change. The Gila is the only ship, maybe a shield tanked Domi that these are any good for. (can't fly Rattlesnake so can't comment on it.) Was not pleased with it on my Mrym either. Just not worth it compared to guns. And when outfitting it to a command ship myrm or a neut mrym just killed CPU. So a potential mod that might have balanced gallente drone boats a bit has only just made the Gila much better. Was that the intent? (I didn't try it on the Ishtar.) Gila fleets are all over Sisi. Sad that a drone improvement has not produced any movement toward Gallente drone boats for all the reasons that everyone has posted previously. Well, I suppose the Gila is half Gallente.

Overall very disappointed in the "Drone Masters." Really CCP, you need to go and change you whole forum page about Gallente on the front of EVE online. Because once you start playing this game you finally figure out how bad this "Drone master" race is. I was hoping for some significant changes to sentries also, which are terrible for most PvP situations.

I need to play around with the webbing drones some more. Overall seems ok. But too early for me to tell. Couldn't really find the kind of fights I wanted, to really experiment with them (ie, counter kiting). Only one engagement occurred that fit it, but of course ship insta- warped out at 40km, which I suspect with be the norm the second these are launched. Wasn't able to tell if the light drones web suffered from stacking penalty, which if they do...well, not much point then really.

But hey the missiles are nice....pretty obvious what ships CCP Dev's fly in... and it ain't a Gallente Drone Boat.
bldyannoyed
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#130 - 2012-05-09 00:51:26 UTC
It ain't gonna be a hgh slot mod.

They said so and they even gave a reason.

This isn't the final balance for drones, this just a start.

It's a low slot damage mod. It is not going to be the last thing that drones get.

Expect Drone Control Units to be coming to a subcap near you.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2012-05-09 00:54:25 UTC
I really think it needs a second bonus to be worthwhile. MWD Speed, tracking or durability I think would be best. A simple damage boost is not as useful if the drones can't apply it properly, or it gets killed.

Honestly, I'd favor 20 or 30% MWD speed. At the very least it would allow you to apply dps quicker and recover your drones more in an emergency GTFO situation. No one else has to deal with: 'Oh crap I left my guns behind' in pvp. I rarely use Ogres in PVP anymore because they are simply too slow.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Vaako Horizon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#132 - 2012-05-09 03:21:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaako Horizon
bldyannoyed wrote:
It ain't gonna be a hgh slot mod.

They said so and they even gave a reason.

This isn't the final balance for drones, this just a start.

It's a low slot damage mod. It is not going to be the last thing that drones get.

Expect Drone Control Units to be coming to a subcap near you.


DCU would be nice to subcaps, as a role bonus to drone boats. it, by it self, will increase our much needed dps ( and also making drone boats more of actual drone boats then an attempt at some hybrid which they all are today )
Rrama Ratamnim
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#133 - 2012-05-09 04:09:27 UTC
God i really hope we see a buff to this module before inferno launches, as it is its too hard to fit still and the damage just isnt worth it, on any mid sized to small ship its better just to fit a BCS/GYR/MAG and buff your guns, even if your guns arent the ship bonus'd item.
MalVortex
Kaladan Interstellar
#134 - 2012-05-09 08:02:02 UTC
Hrett wrote:
I really think it needs a second bonus to be worthwhile. MWD Speed, tracking or durability I think would be best. A simple damage boost is not as useful if the drones can't apply it properly, or it gets killed.

Honestly, I'd favor 20 or 30% MWD speed. At the very least it would allow you to apply dps quicker and recover your drones more in an emergency GTFO situation. No one else has to deal with: 'Oh crap I left my guns behind' in pvp. I rarely use Ogres in PVP anymore because they are simply too slow.


20-30% would completely invalidate drone navigation computers, we won't see any secondary effect strength anywhere near that high if one does indeed get added to it later on in development. Of course this underlines how DNC's are too weak to actually exist as a module, and should be merged into Omni's as a scripted system, but that also won't happen this patch cycle (and probably ever).

Which means you are stuck with sub <20% (probably =<15% or less) on whatever % secondary modifier it does get. Given that drone control range, tracking speed, optimal, and velocity are all accounted for, that really does only leave drone HP left as an option.

That ignores that these modules will only be taken if the drone damage modifier is itself worth taking. Even with the bump to their stats and fitting, they are still too weak to take on anything but the Rattlesnake (but they are finally slightly better than BCU on a Curse - progress!). As part of this sad comedy, the Rattlesnake will only take them because it has a ton of lows and really weak missile damage - making any drone damage upgrade in those lows an automatic shoe-in no matter how bad.


Of course I'm just repeating myself at this point.
miiriiah
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#135 - 2012-05-09 11:10:21 UTC
No to drone speed on it, DNC's are for that

Damage could still be upped slightly, 18% atleast
Tenga Halaris
Galactic Traders Union
#136 - 2012-05-09 11:56:26 UTC
[Dominix, Mother Drone]

Large Armor Repairer II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Extrinsic Damage Amplifier II
Extrinsic Damage Amplifier II
Extrinsic Damage Amplifier II

Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Drone Navigation Computer II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
100MN Afterburner II

Drone Control Unit I
Drone Control Unit I
Drone Control Unit I
Drone Control Unit I
Drone Control Unit I
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Drone Speed Augmentor II
Large Drone Scope Chip II
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Ogre II x10
Hobgoblin II x10


That would be awesome...
TheButcherPete
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#137 - 2012-05-09 15:13:36 UTC
Tenga Halaris wrote:
[Dominix, Mother Drone]

Large Armor Repairer II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Extrinsic Damage Amplifier II
Extrinsic Damage Amplifier II
Extrinsic Damage Amplifier II

Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Drone Navigation Computer II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
100MN Afterburner II

Drone Control Unit I
Drone Control Unit I
Drone Control Unit I
Drone Control Unit I
Drone Control Unit I
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Drone Speed Augmentor II
Large Drone Scope Chip II
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Ogre II x10
Hobgoblin II x10


That would be awesome...


lol drone control units on something other than a Carrier, you're insane.


Drone bandwidth nerf is that way ----->

[b]THE KING OF EVE RADIO

If EVE is real, does that mean all of us are RMTrs?[/b]
Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#138 - 2012-05-09 15:28:09 UTC
Perihelion Olenard wrote:
It's interesting to see that even with a ship bonus to drone damage on the curse that it's still better to put ballistic controls on instead of extrinsics. The only ship that may get use out of an extrinsic in it's current state is the ishtar just because it has only 3 turrets.



Wrong check, the math unless of course you have a failfit curse with more than 2 hmls.
Airto TLA
Acorn's Wonder Bars
#139 - 2012-05-09 16:09:47 UTC
I believe the slow buf from CCP is related to a few very distinct issue, First the range of variance in damage from the most dangerous drone users to the weakest is significantly larger than the most dangerous gun user, this means the module will have a a disproportionate effect on the applied DPS of the "big" users vs the supplemental users.

Second as far as I know the big drone users ships are considered solid choices, the DOMI, Ishtar and Gila (vexor and arbitor varients may fall here as well). This where s real problem lies if you buff a slightly unpowered ship to much you get FOTM if you overbuff a already balanced ship it becomes the most OP thing ever, the boards fill with tears.

The last issue is a caariers, CCP just nerfed super caps to get them out of the subcap murdering business, last thing we all need is more carriers are overpowered nonsence, like someone above said 2200+ DPS Thantos may be a little over the top for pvp and PVE

LaserzPewPew
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#140 - 2012-05-09 20:51:55 UTC  |  Edited by: LaserzPewPew
Airto TLA wrote:
I believe the slow buf from CCP is related to a few very distinct issue, First the range of variance in damage from the most dangerous drone users to the weakest is significantly larger than the most dangerous gun user, this means the module will have a a disproportionate effect on the applied DPS of the "big" users vs the supplemental users.

Second as far as I know the big drone users ships are considered solid choices, the DOMI, Ishtar and Gila (vexor and arbitor varients may fall here as well). This where s real problem lies if you buff a slightly unpowered ship to much you get FOTM if you overbuff a already balanced ship it becomes the most OP thing ever, the boards fill with tears.

The last issue is a caariers, CCP just nerfed super caps to get them out of the subcap murdering business, last thing we all need is more carriers are overpowered nonsence, like someone above said 2200+ DPS Thantos may be a little over the top for pvp and PVE



... You do know this module does not effect fighters?

A Thanatos with 10 garde II's (Highest dps sentry), does 600 dps before the Drone Damage Mod. With two? 781 dps.

That's a third of what you just claimed. Your argument is invalid.