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@CCP: Extrinsic Damage Amplifier Balancing

First post
Author
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#81 - 2012-05-05 17:44:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief
Pesadel0 wrote:

You are nor sure i'am pretty sure it would , you never saw a fleet of domis with a massive drone bonus , and what special cases around drone combat do you mean?The ability to lock send drones and be emune to ewar?Tracking disrupters ?Nos neut?

The Only thing dependent of drones are the ability of us to kill them, and to outrun them and gain range.


First, when was the last time you saw a fleet of Domis? Honestly? Or heck, a fleet of Gallente ships, period? I've kept an eye on the top 20 killboards, and there's less and less Gallente boats there every year. A year ago, there were two. Now it's down to just one, and that is Talos in the #20 slot. Yeah, I guess in the grand scheme of things it's a meaningless statistic, but it does show something, because I honestly don't remember a Domi making the list in the past 3+ years.

The special cases around drone combat are the fact that they can be destroyed, and that even a dedicated drone boat can only carry a limited amount based on size, and their travel time.

The fastest drone still moves a heck of a lot slower than a missile, and way slower than any turret (which are instant). In many cases, drones (especially heavies) just don't make it to the target before it dies. Sentries don't have this issue, but suffer of all the shortcomings if any turret, plus they're stationary - you either babysit them, or you likely lose them because you have to warp out or they get destroyed while sitting there. If you lose them for whatever reason, you have to dock up and resupply (biggest non-carrier can only carry 3 flights of big heavy/sentry drones in its bay), not to mention the price tag associated with losing a flight of T2 heavies (3 mil at current Jita prices).

While drones travel, they use MWD and approach in a straight line - which results in zero transversal to a stationary target and increased signature radius. Need I say more? And then of course there's smartbombs. A single T2 smartbomb can kill most drones in 3-4 pulses, last time I checked.

There's very good reason why drone boats are just not being used often, or at all. And giving drone boats a module that is WORSE than its turret/missile counterpart is not going to change that status quo.

And another fun drone fact? There are still no implants to improve drone damage. Yep, implants for turrets/missiles were added in 2008, I believe. So, 4 years and counting of being treated as a red-headed step-child. And the only rig that increases damage only affects sentries.
TheButcherPete
Blackbase Incorporated
#82 - 2012-05-05 17:52:14 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Pesadel0 wrote:

You are nor sure i'am pretty sure it would , you never saw a fleet of domis with a massive drone bonus , and what special cases around drone combat do you mean?The ability to lock send drones and be emune to ewar?Tracking disrupters ?Nos neut?

The Only thing dependent of drones are the ability of us to kill them, and to outrun them and gain range.


First, when was the last time you saw a fleet of Domis? Honestly? Or heck, a fleet of Gallente ships, period? I've kept an eye on the top 20 killboards, and there's less and less Gallente boats there every year. A year ago, there were two. Now it's down to just one, and that is Talos in the #20 slot. Yeah, I guess in the grand scheme of things it's a meaningless statistic, but it does show something, because I honestly don't remember a Domi making the list in the past 3+ years.

The special cases around drone combat are the fact that they can be destroyed, and that even a dedicated drone boat can only carry a limited amount based on size, and their travel time.

The fastest drone still moves a heck of a lot slower than a missile, and way slower than any turret (which are instant). In many cases, drones (especially heavies) just don't make it to the target before it dies. Sentries don't have this issue, but suffer of all the shortcomings if any turret, plus they're stationary - you either babysit them, or you likely lose them because you have to warp out or they get destroyed while sitting there. If you lose them for whatever reason, you have to dock up and resupply (biggest non-carrier can only carry 3 flights of big heavy/sentry drones in its bay), not to mention the price tag associated with losing a flight of T2 heavies (3 mil at current Jita prices).

While drones travel, they use MWD and approach in a straight line - which results in zero transversal to a stationary target and increased signature radius. Need I say more? And then of course there's smartbombs. A single T2 smartbomb can kill most drones in 3-4 pulses, last time I checked.

There's very good reason why drone boats are just not being used often, or at all. And giving drone boats a module that is WORSE than its turret/missile counterpart is not going to change that status quo.

And another fun drone fact? There are still no implants to improve drone damage. Yep, implants for turrets/missiles were added in 2008, I believe. So, 4 years and counting of being treated as a red-headed step-child. And the only rig that increases damage only affects sentries.


I agree. +1

[b]THE KING OF EVE RADIO

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Rrama Ratamnim
Phoenix Evolved Part Duo
#83 - 2012-05-05 18:14:43 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Pesadel0 wrote:

You are nor sure i'am pretty sure it would , you never saw a fleet of domis with a massive drone bonus , and what special cases around drone combat do you mean?The ability to lock send drones and be emune to ewar?Tracking disrupters ?Nos neut?

The Only thing dependent of drones are the ability of us to kill them, and to outrun them and gain range.


First, when was the last time you saw a fleet of Domis? Honestly? Or heck, a fleet of Gallente ships, period? I've kept an eye on the top 20 killboards, and there's less and less Gallente boats there every year. A year ago, there were two. Now it's down to just one, and that is Talos in the #20 slot. Yeah, I guess in the grand scheme of things it's a meaningless statistic, but it does show something, because I honestly don't remember a Domi making the list in the past 3+ years.

The special cases around drone combat are the fact that they can be destroyed, and that even a dedicated drone boat can only carry a limited amount based on size, and their travel time.

The fastest drone still moves a heck of a lot slower than a missile, and way slower than any turret (which are instant). In many cases, drones (especially heavies) just don't make it to the target before it dies. Sentries don't have this issue, but suffer of all the shortcomings if any turret, plus they're stationary - you either babysit them, or you likely lose them because you have to warp out or they get destroyed while sitting there. If you lose them for whatever reason, you have to dock up and resupply (biggest non-carrier can only carry 3 flights of big heavy/sentry drones in its bay), not to mention the price tag associated with losing a flight of T2 heavies (3 mil at current Jita prices).

While drones travel, they use MWD and approach in a straight line - which results in zero transversal to a stationary target and increased signature radius. Need I say more? And then of course there's smartbombs. A single T2 smartbomb can kill most drones in 3-4 pulses, last time I checked.

There's very good reason why drone boats are just not being used often, or at all. And giving drone boats a module that is WORSE than its turret/missile counterpart is not going to change that status quo.

And another fun drone fact? There are still no implants to improve drone damage. Yep, implants for turrets/missiles were added in 2008, I believe. So, 4 years and counting of being treated as a red-headed step-child. And the only rig that increases damage only affects sentries.


I agree as well, well said +1000000
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#84 - 2012-05-05 19:54:42 UTC
Just Alter wrote:
Vaako Horizon wrote:
Just Alter wrote:


Making it an high slot(and turret/missiles) item would:


  1. increase the tank(mag stabs/bcu slots could be used to increase the tank)
  2. give drone users the ability to avoid training gunnery(or missiles) skills at all
  3. increase drone dps to such a point that it would equal that of turrets. (so 5 ogres/sentries+7 EDA in a bonused ship would do about 1200dps)
  4. make drones a scalable weapon system, not stuck at 500dps.


But i see i'm talking about something completely different here.

So sticking to reality: make it an utility high slot, the increase in dps wont be so high to overpower ships.


+7 EDA? woot? that will make the drone range very limited ( 65km ), I'd really love 1200 dps on my rattle but the range is unacceptable, I would go something like 1 t2 cruise missile, 2x drone link augmentor and then rest EDA's


No other bs does 1200 dps at 65km so it would be fair.

About the tank: if you used sentries+sentry rigs now you can switch the rigs for tank/cap rigs and use the EDA in the lows, with similiar performance (at least in certain setups/ships)

I'd still like to see them on the high slots but it seems like it's not gonna happen.



my nightmare wants to have a talk with you...
Stetson Eagle
Paird Technology
#85 - 2012-05-05 20:22:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Stetson Eagle
Don't increase drone damage any further - it will severely tilt hybrid drone/gunships off balance due to ridiculous amounts of DPS. As is with 15%, a shield rail dominix is already pushing 1300-ish DPS to 50km.

Alternatively, make drone damage mods stacking penalized with other damage mods.
Vaako Horizon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#86 - 2012-05-05 20:48:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaako Horizon
Its CCP we are talking about.... you know, those ppl that say they listen to the community.
They wont listen to us now in regards to making this module high slot ( limited to turret/launcher slots )

Also... I see a few ships mentioned but I see almost no mentioning of the rattlesnake...
I think above all ships ( drone ships ) the rattle needs the most love, give us these highslots ( 4x launchers without ship bonus is crap )
MalVortex
Applied Agoraphobia
#87 - 2012-05-05 21:19:06 UTC
Stetson Eagle wrote:
Don't increase drone damage any further - it will severely tilt hybrid drone/gunships off balance due to ridiculous amounts of DPS. As is with 15%, a shield rail dominix is already pushing 1300-ish DPS to 50km.

Alternatively, make drone damage mods stacking penalized with other damage mods.



Christ and Hunter, what is with EVE-O posters?

Dominix, 3xMFS, 3x EDA, 1x TE, 6x426, 5x Bouncer II, 5% Large Railgun Damage, 5% Turret Damage: 1,170 dps @ 41+39km.

This dominix needs *three* ACRs to fit, and has 52k EHP, 32k effective shields. It has no tackle, low scan resolution, and is fat and slow. The railguns have 0.013 tracking, and the bouncers 0.012. Good luck hitting anything but other battleships. This is an entirely useless fitting. The dominix has to overheat all its rails (with those twin 5% damage implants) to hit your inflated numbers.

Let me make this clear - nobody is going to fly a dominix like this. Its useless at sniping, useless in roaming gangs. If you want to bash a POS without any counter hostile action knock yourself out, but that is its only possible use. Acting as if you can make a viable fitting like this is the friggin king of strawman arguments.


Just so we are clear, you can use this same Dominix, right now on TQ, and do 1,000 DPS at 41+39km. You even have a full 3 lowslots to maybe make your tank not completely suck! 3x EDA on a full-****** Dominix fit doesn't make the ship overpowered, its only 300 additional DPS for a completely gimped fit.


That all said, I do agree Domis are potentially problematic due to their ability to "double dip" on damage mods. I've been saying this sense my OP! This is why I wanted EDA's in the highslot, so you can't fit a full rack of guns at the same time. Each EDA would require a gun to be dropped on a ship like the Dominix, and that would easily counterbalance vs. the gain in DPS.


As it stands, if anybody actually read my post with numbers crunched, you'd see that 15% EDAs are too niche for the majority of drone ships to use (let alone a non-drone boat). If you want to dispute that, go make a reasonable fit showing 15% EDAs are OP and then come back. I'm getting tired of these overinflated DPS, useless boats being held up as examples of drone damage mods being too good.
MalVortex
Applied Agoraphobia
#88 - 2012-05-05 21:32:38 UTC
Regarding the requests for the Rattlesnake, I'll admit I forgot to run the numbers on her.. Kind of shows where the rattler is for PVP combat eh?

The rattlesnake actually loves EDA. Of every drone ship I've looked at so far, it has a massive, unadulterated lust for them. CN Torps from T2 launchers only do 273 dps off the rattlesnake, while Ogre IIs start off at 475. Even with roughly double the scaling power on BCU, the low initial damage numbers from the torps simply can't be made up compared to the high (comparatively) starting damage numbers of Large Drones. Plus it has a ton of lowslots and relatively few good ways to spend them after BCUs.

Just eyeballing the numbers, it looks like 2x BCU, 2x EDA on the Scorpion would be the optimal setup. If you want 5 damage mods, its almost a dead heat in which adds more. Third EDA adds more with Ogre IIs out, Third BCU adds more with any other drone out. So if you want 5x Damage mod Scorp, its really up to personal preference.

Shish Tukay
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#89 - 2012-05-06 01:45:35 UTC
High-slot would make pure-drone fits viable, where currently they're lagging behind pure-guns and pure-rockets; as they are now, even someone with lots of drone skills and little gunnery would still be better off fitting guns + gun damage mods.

Quote:
damage mods are LOW SLOT ITEMS

So "tradition" is a great reason for anything? By that logic, "weapons are high-slot items". Except drones aren't. Drones are different; they act differently and should be treated differently.

Quote:
A dev said it's low slot; this means it is low slot for now and forever, stop discussing it, abandon all hope of being listened to

Maybe once it's on the live server I'll grumpily tolerate it; but while it's on the test server and they're asking for feedback, I'm going to keep testing and giving feedback, as I would imagine that's what the "test server feedback" forum is for :-P
Vaako Horizon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#90 - 2012-05-06 08:21:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaako Horizon
MalVortex wrote:
Regarding the requests for the Rattlesnake, I'll admit I forgot to run the numbers on her.. Kind of shows where the rattler is for PVP combat eh?

The rattlesnake actually loves EDA. Of every drone ship I've looked at so far, it has a massive, unadulterated lust for them. CN Torps from T2 launchers only do 273 dps off the rattlesnake, while Ogre IIs start off at 475. Even with roughly double the scaling power on BCU, the low initial damage numbers from the torps simply can't be made up compared to the high (comparatively) starting damage numbers of Large Drones. Plus it has a ton of lowslots and relatively few good ways to spend them after BCUs.

Just eyeballing the numbers, it looks like 2x BCU, 2x EDA on the Scorpion would be the optimal setup. If you want 5 damage mods, its almost a dead heat in which adds more. Third EDA adds more with Ogre IIs out, Third BCU adds more with any other drone out. So if you want 5x Damage mod Scorp, its really up to personal preference.



the rattle's LOW missile damage ( useless even in pve ) makes me want these EDA in highslot, to replace the missles in favor of the drones...

I do tons and tons of more dps in my domi because the guns are far better then missiles :P and it also has somewhat of a better tank despite the rattles passive abilitys.
I only stay in my rattle because it needs less attention and that makes multiboxing easier.
MotherMoon
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2012-05-06 09:55:58 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Agreed.

CCP needs to take a look at Gallente tutorial, specifically the part that calls drones a Gallente racial weapon, comparable to Minmatar Projectiles and Amarr Lasers. And then they need to start treading drones accordingly - as a full fledged weapons system, not a red-headed step-child support system. The whole reason I spent the majority of my training time in drones is because I bought that line hook, line and sinker. And so far, it's just not comparable to missile or turret boats, not even close.

I was really hoping drones in general and drone boats in particular would get some serious review, but so far it looks lackluster at best.


also with the change to drone bandwidth and drone bay years ago, give me one good reason why all drone boats don't get their drone bays doubled, or even tripled?

http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1206/scimi.jpg

Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2012-05-06 10:10:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Pesadel0
forum ate my post.
LaserzPewPew
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#93 - 2012-05-06 19:16:29 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I updated the modules slightly, it should be out on Sisi no later than Monday.

I reduced the CPU slightly (to 30 and 35 for t1 and t2 respectively)

I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively.

Unfortunately, due to how drones work in the backend, I can't affect their RoF. But we should be able to tweak the other numbers to make the module on par with the damage amplifiers for other weapon types.



If you're going to do it, do it all the way. Do not implement half a band-aid and call it fixed, the band-aid will simply fall off.

More importantly, if you are cautious of adding a 22.9% drone damage modifier, mix in another bonus. 10% drone speed for instance.

This will cause drones to be more reliable and, thus, increase their damage.

On the plus side, the EFT warriors wouldn't complain, because the raw DPS doesn't change. Herpaderp.
Pink Marshmellow
Caucasian Culture Club
#94 - 2012-05-06 22:56:50 UTC
I agree with several posters. 15%/12% is still not enough. 22-23% is the way to go.

Now there are some that are afraid of drones being overpowered, but drones are the only weapon system that can be completely destroyed.


Sure droneboats have a large bay, but even then its only a few flights of heavy, mediums, and lights. You can kill an entire flight of heavy drones using smartbombs. Once a droneboat's drones are gone they are pretty much helpless and have little to no dps.

Drones also have a delayed dps like missiles, they take time to acquire and travel to the target. While traveling, they do no damage and are very easy to pop due to sig bloom from their mwd's.

Cpu should be no more than 30 for T2. And should give atleast a 20% bonus to damage, since you cannot increase rof of drones.
Gevlin
Pirates of the Caribbean.
Phantom Horde
#95 - 2012-05-07 02:38:13 UTC
remember drones boats are a ship that can be versitle changing drones etc. Drones should be a little bit weaker than other types of fire power.

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships

GetSirrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#96 - 2012-05-07 03:14:19 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I updated the modules slightly, it should be out on Sisi no later than Monday.

I reduced the CPU slightly (to 30 and 35 for t1 and t2 respectively)

I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively.

Unfortunately, due to how drones work in the backend, I can't affect their RoF. But we should be able to tweak the other numbers to make the module on par with the damage amplifiers for other weapon types.


an unlikely suggestion and I seem to be the first. Drone Interfacing, and both the Vexor and Arby also offer a mining drone bonus. Any change SoniClover that this module be expanded to offer this bonus as well?
Azura Solus
Rules of Acquisition
#97 - 2012-05-07 03:15:41 UTC
I posted this in the other thread related to the super friends changes but will post it here too since it has to do with the module

GetSirrus wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
I think the Drone WU needs to move to high slot to compete with guns and other drone modules.



I will put a second on this. I commonly fit so there are empty high slots while lows (tank) and mids (cap/ewar) are filled. It would be easy to give up a turret as a damage contributor in exchange for the drones applying the damage instead.



Agree with all the above Drone boats dont depend on turrets to do there damage. Any drone boat pilot i know would happily give up there turrets for the drone damage mods to be high slot. And most drone boats Armor tanked Ie (low slots are already taken). I can understand you want to make them in line with gyros and heat sinks and such but it just isn't viable.

As example of this A domi set up for afk missions will have there lows filled with armor hardeners 2 repairers and a cap power relay while the mids are all cap rechargers. Most people dont even fit turrets to a afk ship like that and instead choose drone link augs a laser ( any will do to pull agro) and reps to repair your drones. And for the PVP side of things A neut Arbitrator is about the same lows for tank Mids for scrams and utility mods and your highs are neuts.

***Both Drone boats have fits where these new mods would only be beneficial in a high slot position.****

Now im sure there are other examples of ships in the same situation, and people who fit there ships differently but i do believe that the new drone damage mod should be a high slot And should be buffed more then currently offered (especially since Nothing can be done about the ROF)
Tankn00blicus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2012-05-07 03:17:09 UTC
Gevlin wrote:
remember drones boats are a ship that can be versitle changing drones etc. Drones should be a little bit weaker than other types of fire power.
When they add in the ability to blow up turrets and missile launchers, sure.
LaserzPewPew
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#99 - 2012-05-07 04:15:21 UTC
Gevlin wrote:
remember drones boats are a ship that can be versitle changing drones etc. Drones should be a little bit weaker than other types of fire power.


The balance to that is the fact that drones need to be drawn in, then redeployed. Moving back and forth takes time. Lost time is lost damage. But by your logic, all weapon systems should be lower EFT damage.

Your argument is flawed.

And **** EFT.
Alice Katsuko
Perkone
Caldari State
#100 - 2012-05-07 04:49:24 UTC
LaserzPewPew wrote:
CCP SoniClover wrote:
I updated the modules slightly, it should be out on Sisi no later than Monday.

I reduced the CPU slightly (to 30 and 35 for t1 and t2 respectively)

I increased the damage bonus to 12% and 15% for t1 and t2 respectively.

Unfortunately, due to how drones work in the backend, I can't affect their RoF. But we should be able to tweak the other numbers to make the module on par with the damage amplifiers for other weapon types.



If you're going to do it, do it all the way. Do not implement half a band-aid and call it fixed, the band-aid will simply fall off.

More importantly, if you are cautious of adding a 22.9% drone damage modifier, mix in another bonus. 10% drone speed for instance.

This will cause drones to be more reliable and, thus, increase their damage.

On the plus side, the EFT warriors wouldn't complain, because the raw DPS doesn't change. Herpaderp.


A drone speed bonus would make some sense, especially for drone boats which use heavy/sentry drones. Probably the biggest disadvantage of heavy drones is their travel time. Boosting their MWD speed would help drones in general, and heavy drones in particular apply damage to the target faster, boosting their real dps quite a bit, especially if drone speed boosts are not stacking penalized. That may make it harder for frigates to kite drones deployed by drone boats, however.