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Darwinism Died with Eve? How Space Ship Engineers Never Learned to Adapt - And Stopped Worrying.

Author
Archdaimon
Merchants of the Golden Goose
#1 - 2012-05-05 00:05:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Archdaimon
Disclaimer: Not a carebear blah blah, didn't lose any hulks blah blah, don't live in Hi blah blah.

Matter at Hand:

Eve is a Sandbox or tries to be as much as possible. What is not "sandboxable" is the ship designs of Eve. They are sort of given to us by magical beings deciding what we can fly and what we can't.

As with any thing in Human history when one thing failed things started to adapt. We see this in fleet doctrines or fits for ships.

What we do not see is the ship design itself change. What am I getting at?

Mining ships. It makes no sense, from any fluffy perspective that ships continuously ganked never develops and becomes able to counter that thread. Few times in history have people insisted on being so ******** as to continue doing the same mistake over and over. No place in Eve has ever been safe enough for any ship design as paper thin as an exhumer to be designed in the first place!

One should think that an Engineer had at least enough some entrepreneurial spirit as to create a mining design not popin on sight. The resource is worth it. Current ship design just plain weird.

Faq:
q) omfg omfg omfg carebear don't want suicide ganks.
a) Yes I do. But lets put some fun into it. School Yard bully only fun for so long?

q) Your a botter
a) No.

q) You just butthurt
a) Not really. I just haven't lost faith in common sense

q) Don't fly what you can't afford to lose
a) I don't

q) Have you tried mining
a) Yes

q) Why should I care?
a) Dunno, maybe you just will?

tbc

Edit:

q) But there are many other ships that doesn't make sense. How about t1 cruisers and ****?
a) Indeed. But our Engineers said they were going to do something about that in the Tiercide. Lets have those same engineers invest a bit of time on mining as well?

Wormholes have the best accoustics. It's known. - Sing it for me -

Nick Bison
Bison Industrial Inc
#2 - 2012-05-05 00:09:16 UTC
Yup, that is actually pretty accurate.

+1

Nothing clever at this time.

Alara IonStorm
#3 - 2012-05-05 00:10:25 UTC
Business 101.

Guy buys Mining Ship > Mining Ship is destroyed > Guy buys new Mining Ship.

They don't have much incentive to put money into designing something when everyone just keeps buying new current Mining Ships after getting ganked.

Like how new light bulbs burn out quicker then ones made in the 30's.
Rezig Huruta
Fiction.
BlackRose.
#4 - 2012-05-05 00:12:12 UTC
So, how about using a buffer ship... maybe I don't know... shield transfer arrays and other such things to last a bit longer until the baddies get Concorded?

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2012-05-05 00:13:41 UTC
There's this one hull that can be fit to mine pretty well and fit a great tank.

You may have heard of it, it's called the Rokh.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#6 - 2012-05-05 00:14:18 UTC
Andski wrote:
There's this one hull that can be fit to mine pretty well and fit a great tank.

You may have heard of it, it's called the Rokh.

Yay for the rokh !

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Archdaimon
Merchants of the Golden Goose
#7 - 2012-05-05 00:18:07 UTC
Hi Goons. Yeah I heard of the Rokh. It is also a battleship designed for combat able to fit mining lasers (wtf?).

My point is. If this was a sandbox and I spent 100 bil isk designing a better tanked mining ship I am pretty sure I'd find investors pretty fast.

I mean I would almost be able to find investors on this real planet called earth:

http://www.economist.com/node/21553419

Wormholes have the best accoustics. It's known. - Sing it for me -

Sycho Pathic
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2012-05-05 00:25:20 UTC
As far as the Hulk goes...
A fool and his ISK are soon parted.
Alara IonStorm
#9 - 2012-05-05 00:27:28 UTC
Archdaimon wrote:
Hi Goons. Yeah I heard of the Rokh. It is also a battleship designed for combat able to fit mining lasers (wtf?).

My point is. If this was a sandbox and I spent 100 bil isk designing a better tanked mining ship I am pretty sure I'd find investors pretty fast.

That's great but no one would buy it. ORE holds pattens on all their Mining Gear and would never sell permission to use it to you.

Your Ship would Mine less then a Hulk, about as much as a Rokh really if you are lucky. No one would invest the capital you need because surprise, surprise they are all investing in ORE.

Why are they investing in ORE? Besides being industry leaders all their Ships are easily destroyed so they end up triple billing everyone. You would never make enough to reverse engineer the technology.
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2012-05-05 00:27:45 UTC
Archdaimon wrote:
Hi Goons. Yeah I heard of the Rokh. It is also a battleship designed for combat able to fit mining lasers (wtf?).

My point is. If this was a sandbox and I spent 100 bil isk designing a better tanked mining ship I am pretty sure I'd find investors pretty fast.

I mean I would almost be able to find investors on this real planet called earth:

http://www.economist.com/node/21553419


This is about balance - the Hulk has great mining abilities, but that comes at the expense of the ability to take damage.

It does not take much to kill a gank-fit Catalyst - one HAC/BC will take care of it quickly.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Archdaimon
Merchants of the Golden Goose
#11 - 2012-05-05 00:31:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Archdaimon
Andski wrote:
Archdaimon wrote:
Hi Goons. Yeah I heard of the Rokh. It is also a battleship designed for combat able to fit mining lasers (wtf?).

My point is. If this was a sandbox and I spent 100 bil isk designing a better tanked mining ship I am pretty sure I'd find investors pretty fast.

I mean I would almost be able to find investors on this real planet called earth:

http://www.economist.com/node/21553419


This is about balance - the Hulk has great mining abilities, but that comes at the expense of the ability to take damage.

It does not take much to kill a gank-fit Catalyst - one HAC/BC will take care of it quickly.


Of course it is about balance. But currently the setup is so off balance it should be obvious.

Another piece of evidence is the weird manifesto from our dear James(whatever)(tm) about carebears destroying Eve.
What he is right about is that no one dares to mine. Those that do either failed math at school or I don't know is masochists or something.

If we want a game of hunted and hunters, there must be a food chain. Currently Mining itself has ******** gameplay but combine it with ******** ship designs make it even more inbearable.

In short. Bad mining design kills pew!


- Let me add to this:

In the grander scheme of things mining in Low sec should not be a fools errand. Mining ops with protection what not should be exciting endeavours. They are not!
Why?
Because mining ships is on a small tactical scale largely undefendable.

But I mine in Zero or my WH?!?!?!
-Yeah and you have a thousand man fleet to keep the enemy 5 jumps away.

Bring tactical gameplay back to mining and give them a tanking change!

Wormholes have the best accoustics. It's known. - Sing it for me -

Merrc
Merrc Corporation
#12 - 2012-05-05 01:16:22 UTC
I would like to see a new ship also, unkillable no, but damn Hulks are dated ( I cant even remember are they circa 2006?) There is a larger consumption of ore now but no one designs a larger mining vessel? Carriers, Dreads,Titans...but the ship that helps build many of these... sometimes I think the Orca was initially designed to be a mining vessel but was viewed as too powerful, lets pull the srtip miners and give it Tractors X
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-05-05 01:19:04 UTC
Good point. You know there has been many additions to mining vessels with t2 macks and hulks and the orca but zero vessels dedicated to suicide ganking. This obviously needs rectifying.

I mean there should certainly be advances in suiciding ships so how about a cruiser with 8 gun hardpoints that can fit medium guns with a 60%/lvl bonus to damage. Ship costs about 5m and after firing dies in 20s, no matter what!
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2012-05-05 01:23:31 UTC
lol space ship designers have to adapt so incompetent pilots don't have to
Darth Tickles
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-05-05 01:25:04 UTC
Vaal Erit wrote:
Good point. You know there has been many additions to mining vessels with t2 macks and hulks and the orca but zero vessels dedicated to suicide ganking. This obviously needs rectifying.

I mean there should certainly be advances in suiciding ships so how about a cruiser with 8 gun hardpoints that can fit medium guns with a 60%/lvl bonus to damage. Ship costs about 5m and after firing dies in 20s, no matter what!



wololololol

******* owned

end thread
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2012-05-05 01:40:03 UTC
Vaal Erit wrote:
Good point. You know there has been many additions to mining vessels with t2 macks and hulks and the orca but zero vessels dedicated to suicide ganking. This obviously needs rectifying.

I mean there should certainly be advances in suiciding ships so how about a cruiser with 8 gun hardpoints that can fit medium guns with a 60%/lvl bonus to damage. Ship costs about 5m and after firing dies in 20s, no matter what!


I'm down with this.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

ivar R'dhak
Deus est Mechanicus
#17 - 2012-05-05 01:48:49 UTC  |  Edited by: ivar R'dhak
VERY good thread. Actually OP, the Exhumers were supposed to be these ships.

CCP just dumped them on the miners then promptly ignored ALL their failings, then killed mining with drone alloys and nobody really cared much afterwards.

Stupidly CCP now killed "gun mining" for good thinking there was some actual viable gameplay to replace that.
Well, whoopidy-effin-doodah, there isn´t!

Hulkageddon perfectly proves that, which I´m actually glad the Goons are doing. Nothing like cold hard data to show how stupid the whole mining gameplay is ATM.
Which after all now provides the minerals and thus the whole backbone of EVE´s industry.

The food chain metaphor is perfect here.
There is now indeed NO real food chain left. Only big fish eating the smaller ones.

The PVP masterminds will eventually have to start their own mining OPs, and I can´t wait to watch how that one will pan out.
Bet Goonswarm mining will be a sight to behold. P

Or rather not .. as even the Mitani can´t polish that turd shiny enough for his merry bunch of bastiches.
Merrc
Merrc Corporation
#18 - 2012-05-05 01:50:49 UTC
Vaal Erit wrote:
Good point. You know there has been many additions to mining vessels with t2 macks and hulks and the orca but zero vessels dedicated to suicide ganking. This obviously needs rectifying.

I mean there should certainly be advances in suiciding ships so how about a cruiser with 8 gun hardpoints that can fit medium guns with a 60%/lvl bonus to damage. Ship costs about 5m and after firing dies in 20s, no matter what!



Something like the TIII battlecruisers ?
Thomas Orca
Broski is ded
#19 - 2012-05-05 01:51:20 UTC
ivar R'dhak wrote:

The food chain metaphor is perfect here.
There is now indeed NO real food chain left. Only big fish eating the smaller ones.


I'm curious as to what you think a food chain is.
ivar R'dhak
Deus est Mechanicus
#20 - 2012-05-05 01:55:44 UTC
Thomas Orca wrote:
I'm curious as to what you think a food chain is.
It begins with plankton or in EvE´s case miner "pond scum". Bear
"Food chainy" enough for you?
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