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Inferno Features on Singularity

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Silly Slot
State War Academy
Caldari State
#441 - 2012-05-03 14:57:47 UTC
Cearain wrote:

1) Some people will like these changes. The same people who like null sec have expressed they like these changes. So its not like no one will do faction war. People will. Its just that it will be people who already have what they are looking for in other parts of the game shifting back and forth. You won't be adding anything really unique to keep the people who aren't interested in the sov null sec stuff entertained.

2) Well your past history in treating faction war as something that doesn't deserve ongoing concern.


and your solution to this would be.......

i hear no recommendations, the big complaint was no consequences for taking systems, i mean ya you have the system but you can still dock there even though another faction took that system... i mean if CCP was adding station bashing to lowsec THEN i'd say they were going a bit screw loose, but this is a simple ability to flip system and deny rights to give the owner of the system a perk, its much easier to flip a system in FW than in Nullsec even in the new system.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#442 - 2012-05-03 15:02:12 UTC
about 40 hours to cap a system? Very nice. Makes the station lockout not as punitive.

I hope if they FW LP ship costs went up in our stores, it goes un in the "normal" LP stores too.

These are some pretty major changes. Although we may not like how they all sound or know how they will all play out, I applaud the fact there seems to be some real effort put into it.

Thanks.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#443 - 2012-05-03 15:04:21 UTC
In Null Sec being denied docking rights covers all reds AND neuts! the docking rights changes being proposed for FW denies only the warring factions militias.

If you're concerned about getting your stuff out of a station you cant dock.. ask your corp directors to put up a POS in system close to the undock allignment of the station in question and get the corp to blue up neut alts that can fly said ships... undock and warp ur ships to the pos to collect later.

the ability for neut alts to have access is a very very VERY big difference to Null Sec. if you have stuff trapped in a null sec conquerable station you have no idea how many hoops u have to jump through to get access to them, its definitely a hell of a lot more that are a hell of a lot more involving than the ones proposed for FW.

Another thing... 24 hours isnt long for sov to flip... Null sec it can be up to a whole week. thats a 7x increase.

the fact it doesnt make sense that certain militia cant dock in a station thats called something akin to that militias faction is a surface detail only, but possibly one that could be remedied by devs maybe? for example if the station is flipped the name changed to a randomised name based on station names of the victorious faction.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#444 - 2012-05-03 15:09:53 UTC
Silly Slot wrote:
Cearain wrote:

1) Some people will like these changes. The same people who like null sec have expressed they like these changes. So its not like no one will do faction war. People will. Its just that it will be people who already have what they are looking for in other parts of the game shifting back and forth. You won't be adding anything really unique to keep the people who aren't interested in the sov null sec stuff entertained.

2) Well your past history in treating faction war as something that doesn't deserve ongoing concern.


and your solution to this would be.......

i hear no recommendations, the big complaint was no consequences for taking systems, i mean ya you have the system but you can still dock there even though another faction took that system... i mean if CCP was adding station bashing to lowsec THEN i'd say they were going a bit screw loose, but this is a simple ability to flip system and deny rights to give the owner of the system a perk, its much easier to flip a system in FW than in Nullsec even in the new system.



The solution is obvious. Allow docking and decrease the timers so smaller gangs can have an impact. This will mean large blobs won't be fast enough to react to threats everywhere throughout the faction war region and small gangs can accomplish something. Players will be able to coodinate attacks thoughout the faction war region and not just on the frontline systems. Even if the defenders have more numbers they may have to send fleets the same size as the attacking force due to the urgency to defend at that time in those ship types.

This will make faction war more fast paced and dynamic than the blobby and slow sov null sec.

Keep some consequences of course. Maybe make station guns start to fire in systems occupied or whatever. I agree with allot of the changes in this expansion in that regard.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#445 - 2012-05-03 15:14:08 UTC
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
In Null Sec being denied docking rights covers all reds AND neuts! the docking rights changes being proposed for FW denies only the warring factions militias.

If you're concerned about getting your stuff out of a station you cant dock.. ask your corp directors to put up a POS in system close to the undock allignment of the station in question and get the corp to blue up neut alts that can fly said ships... undock and warp ur ships to the pos to collect later..



Yeah right its pretty clear the minmatar have a stronger presence now. We won't be able to defend our space. So we already moved our stuff out of faction war space. That is not the issue.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#446 - 2012-05-03 15:14:32 UTC
Cearain wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Cearain wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:

New CCP is not old CCP.



Really? You talk about iterating on faction war as if it will happen every other month. But CCP doesn't even fix bugs in the mechanics.

We have had 2 or 3 patches since a bug in the plexing mechanic has been clearly identified and ccp has not fixed it.

Jade welcome to faction war. This aint sov null sec where ccp is constantly wringing their hands to make sure everything works as intended.

Please tell me what ccp has done for faction war lately that makes you think they will give it any priority at all. Everything points to them puking this out and letting it sit there for years.

We do not even get the courtesy of a clear explanation/devblog telling us what is on sisi. No one can say.

"Go try it" is the answer.

Ok I did I see a militia tab that says I am at war with minmatar and nothing else. I can't use any services in a 24th imperial crusade station even though I fight for amarr. I do a plex and get a 17k lp for a medium but beyond that I have no idea what I accomplished. I look at the map and its the same blurry balls that give very fuzzy information.

How long am I supposed to stay on sisi trying to figure out what they are doing? The only thing that is clear is they are following through with their null sec lite plans. No docking and long timers.


BTW
not all the drones show up on dscan.
The sov tab on the map says (faction war) but it is listing alliances that are not in faction war.


Just fyi, the team shipping the faction warfare changes in Inferno will continue working on faction warfare after Inferno. Their task will be to follow up on the release and if they have time, add more stuff. First priority will be reacting to the changes that we ship, second priority adding new stuff to FW and the UI. That is their only task for the expansion following Inferno.

The second thing is this: I'm not entirely sure where the impression that we want to turn faction warfare into "0.0" has come from, but it's entirely inaccurate. We're not about to do that and the only similarity to 0.0 is that you'll be able to deny docking rights, which isn't turning Fw into 0.0, but common sense for any territorial combat, no matter where it is.

This is Sisi, it's a test server. It's where we put stuff to test it out and make changes, fix bugs etc. We write devblogs for releases, not for the test server. If you expect a devblog for our test server, you've entirely misunderstood how devblogs work.



Well this is good news. I hope they continue to iterate on faction war - to the extent they make it better and not more like the same thing we see in null sec.

Let me explain why the comparison with sov null sec being made:


1) In null sec it takes a long enough time to flip a system so a small gang can't do anything of substance before the more numerous side can form a blob and chase them out. You are doing this by making it take longer to flip a system.
2) In null sec you can deny docking rights so roaming fleets in enemy are more rare and take more planning and time to form up.
3) In null sec if you get the blob to capture a system you can upgrade your system so you can carebear more effectively

I mean this is basically sov null sec in a nut shell. In this expansion you are doing all these things. So in those regards you are making it more like sov null sec. In what ways is this expansion making faction war less like sov null sec?

I am not sure why it is common sense that an amarr milita member is not allowed to use any services or dock in a 24th imperial crusade station.

As far as dev blogs, I have given up on expecting them at all. The last faction war dev blog was how many years ago? If you read the end of that dev blog does it say that ccp will continue to work on faction war?

Even now it is very hard to find out how the current fw mechanics work. Can you point me to a ccp created source that really gives a detailed explanation of how many plexes need to switch and what effect the the size of the plex has on flipping it?

I am not trying to give you a hard time. I am just trying to explain that what you are doing is not being received well from many because we are already offered allot of these sorts of game play in eve and are not interested.

And although some people are saying give it a try and if it doesn't work ccp will change it there are 2 problems:

1) Some people will like these changes. The same people who like null sec have expressed they like these changes. So its not like no one will do faction war. People will. Its just that it will be people who already have what they are looking for in other parts of the game shifting back and forth. You won't be adding anything really unique to keep the people who aren't interested in the sov null sec stuff entertained.

2) Well your past history in treating faction war as something that doesn't deserve ongoing concern.


hit in the nuts .... CCPs
Maz3r Rakum
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#447 - 2012-05-03 15:16:50 UTC
@soundwave

@hans

The idea of locking people out of stations is the worst thing you could do to faction warfare. This will be a counter productive change as a side that has a lot less active participants won't gain an influx of new corps players as they are already numbered and cannot hold systems to even dock.

For FW to work it needs active players on each side. This mechanic will most likely just kill one side, and then the other side is left with nothing left to shoot, wt wise.

You've mentioned "wait and see". Why would I want to stick around in a feature that at least in my opinion ruins the sandbox.

I'll probably ubsub my accounts over this one feature that no one wants besides our supposed savior of a CSM Hans.
Haulie Berry
#448 - 2012-05-03 15:17:43 UTC
Quote:
• New missiles, trails and explosions


Please tell me the current torpedo explosion effect is a placeholder.

Bring back the 20km blast ring please. Maybe make it a newer, sexier one, but this tiny little puff of smoke business is no fun.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#449 - 2012-05-03 15:32:15 UTC
May I suggest that there be a separate FW feedback thread, since we seem to be taking over the discussion here? ;)

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#450 - 2012-05-03 15:33:43 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
Quote:
• New missiles, trails and explosions


Please tell me the current torpedo explosion effect is a placeholder.

Bring back the 20km blast ring please. Maybe make it a newer, sexier one, but this tiny little puff of smoke business is no fun.


on that note Explosions for bombs are f*''kin AMAZING! they feeeeel 3D!

and tbh always thought torp explosions were a lil too over the top! tho id prefer it to be a lil more like it used to be.
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#451 - 2012-05-03 15:39:22 UTC
Maz3r Rakum wrote:
For FW to work it needs active players on each side. This mechanic will most likely just kill one side, and then the other side is left with nothing left to shoot, wt wise.


If everyone on your team quits just like you, that's exactly what will happen. But that will be on the players, not on CCP. I think you disrespect your faction by not giving them any credit and assuming they'll all bail the minute things become more challenging. I'm sure there are many Amarr who are willing to fight against the odds. And if not, than they deserve to lose their space. v0v

Quote:
You've mentioned "wait and see". Why would I want to stick around in a feature that at least in my opinion ruins the sandbox.


Cause its just your opinion that it ruins the sandbox, you don't know any better than me exactly how this will turn out. There are far too many variables, and you underestimate the resiliency and resolve of Faction Warfare pilots.

Quote:
I'll probably ubsub my accounts over this one feature that no one wants besides our supposed savior of a CSM Hans.


If you think this is a change I've been championing, that clearly you haven't been reading a single thing I've said. I've been opposed to lockout consistently from the beginning. Once I realized that CCP was adamant about this feature being implemented, the focus shifted to making it as sensible as possible, and I think we've done a good job of putting this consequence into a reasonable context.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#452 - 2012-05-03 15:44:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Quote:
1) In null sec it takes a long enough time to flip a system so a small gang can't do anything of substance before the more numerous side can form a blob and chase them out. You are doing this by making it take longer to flip a system.
2) In null sec you can deny docking rights so roaming fleets in enemy are more rare and take more planning and time to form up.
3) In null sec if you get the blob to capture a system you can upgrade your system so you can carebear more effectively


1: I can see the point you are driving at, a fast system flip means that smaller gangs can flip a system more easily and make for a more dynamic battlefield. This is a good thing, but also you need to realize that it also makes it easier for you to have resources trapped in those stations.

Also, a longer flip time can work in the favor of those that are outnumbered. It is more difficult to keep a large fleet together for an extended period of time than it is to keep a small one together. All the smaller fleet needs (depending on the details of the mechanics involved) is an opening of time where they have an advantage (numerically or otherwise) to disrupt the efforts of the larger force. The devil will be in the details.

2: Not being able to dock in a system controlled by the enemy not only makes sense, you also really (really) need to understand that the ability to dock favors those wishing to move larger fleets into an area. it provides a staging area for them that smaller fleets don't have as much need for. Restricted docking works in favor of the underdog, and encourages smaller, faster fleets.

3: Obviously you need to have control over the space you wish to upgrade and make more civilized from your point of view. Anything else would be highly illogical.

We will know more when all the fine details of the process come to light. I have a feeling that you are going to find that many (if not all) of your arguments end up in "cutting off your nose to spite your face".

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#453 - 2012-05-03 15:51:28 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Silly Slot wrote:
daghhhhh someone grab the inventory guys and get them on to respond in the test feedback forum, and in their own devblog topic, people are begging to make input but not seeing any devs :( makes me sad panda


RubberBAND, Optimal and Arrow have replied to plenty of feedback and encouraged more of it - also just because someone isn't seen to be responding, doesn't mean they aren't taking the feedback in.

Yea well after neocom fiasco the expectations are where they are. To be honest I will be blown away if the improvements I recommended to it or to this new unified inventory will ever make it to the tranq, but at least have done my part again and told what it takes to upgrade half finished product to finished state.

I am too sorry that it has to be this way, but as the history has proven - issues which are not "liked" get buried under silence and ignored till forgotten. This is one of those times again where we players roll dice in here whether we shall get nice new inventory or half baked pie once again. There is no way to tell before the patch day.

Perhaps after this you reopen the neocom and finish that too? No? How predictable.

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Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
#454 - 2012-05-03 16:02:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Damar Rocarion
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
And if not, than they deserve to lose their space. v0v


And there goes your neutrality. Welcome back Ankh, I quess....

You seem to think that being able to soak punishment and losses automatically means success. To quote immortal words of Private Frost, "What the hell are we supposed to use man? Harsh language? "
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#455 - 2012-05-03 16:03:13 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Silly Slot wrote:
daghhhhh someone grab the inventory guys and get them on to respond in the test feedback forum, and in their own devblog topic, people are begging to make input but not seeing any devs :( makes me sad panda


RubberBAND, Optimal and Arrow have replied to plenty of feedback and encouraged more of it - also just because someone isn't seen to be responding, doesn't mean they aren't taking the feedback in.

Yea well after neocom fiasco the expectations are where they are. To be honest I will be blown away if the improvements I recommended to it or to this new unified inventory will ever make it to the tranq, but at least have done my part again and told what it takes to upgrade half finished product to finished state.

I am too sorry that it has to be this way, but as the history has proven - issues which are not "liked" get buried under silence and ignored till forgotten. This is one of those times again where we players roll dice in here whether we shall get nice new inventory or half baked pie once again. There is no way to tell before the patch day.

Perhaps after this you reopen the neocom and finish that too? No? How predictable.


The opinions of Grey Stormshadow of xXPIZZAXx are very important.

[b]Don't worry about posting with your main!  Post with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."[/b]
Vaako Horizon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#456 - 2012-05-03 16:03:30 UTC
Typical, I get on SiSi just to discover that I dont have the ship nor the cash to buy the sip I wanted to try :P
How often are characters sent to SiSi? can I request that the current char on SiSi be removed and then updated with the tranq one? :D :D :D
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#457 - 2012-05-03 16:03:49 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Maz3r Rakum wrote:
For FW to work it needs active players on each side. This mechanic will most likely just kill one side, and then the other side is left with nothing left to shoot, wt wise.


If everyone on your team quits just like you, that's exactly what will happen. But that will be on the players, not on CCP. I think you disrespect your faction by not giving them any credit and assuming they'll all bail the minute things become more challenging. I'm sure there are many Amarr who are willing to fight against the odds. And if not, than they deserve to lose their space. v0v.


Hans I do *not* think you are just glad about this just because minmatar will win. But I do think minmatar have had the upperhand for so long you have forgotten what its like to be the underdog. These proposals of giving more time to flip a system and locking out the losing side all favor those who are already favorites.

If you think I am going to start thowing my ships away at minmatar blobs sitting in the frontline systems, for some sort of rp "Yay amarr" reasoning, you are mistaken.


Quote:
You've mentioned "wait and see". Why would I want to stick around in a feature that at least in my opinion ruins the sandbox.


Cause its just your opinion that it ruins the sandbox, you don't know any better than me exactly how this will turn out. There are far too many variables, and you underestimate the resiliency and resolve of Faction Warfare pilots..[/quote]

Its not that hard to figure some of this out. Gee when they nerfed mission loot and drone loot, minerals increased in price. Who would have guessed?

But limiting were we dock tends to force fights to limitted numbers of systems. This means the blob knows where it needs to be. Forcing longer times to accomplish anything means the blob will have time to form up and undue anything a small gang tries to accomplish. This is not rocket science or speculation.

Sure perhaps some new players who like the null sec game will come in and start doing this blob pvp. Thats fine for them. I'm not interested.


Quote:
I'll probably ubsub my accounts over this one feature that no one wants besides our supposed savior of a CSM Hans.


If you think this is a change I've been championing, that clearly you haven't been reading a single thing I've said. I've been opposed to lockout consistently from the beginning. Once I realized that CCP was adamant about this feature being implemented, the focus shifted to making it as sensible as possible, and I think we've done a good job of putting this consequence into a reasonable context.[/quote]

You have been repeatedly defending this decision in this thread by saying its what "many players want." You admit *most* faction war players do not want this, but you usually leave that out and just say "many players want this."

If you were posting "most players do not want this" as much as you were posting the misleading "many players want this" then people wouldn't be so confused where you stand.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#458 - 2012-05-03 16:05:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Lets focus in on the docking rights issue, as this seems to be the core of many complaints and misconceptions.

Scenario 1:

I am the underdog with fewer pilots at my disposal, and a larger force comes into a system I hold.

Do I want the larger force to be able to dock and easily set up shop there?

Absolutely not, I want to be able to dock and I want to make this larger fleets life as difficult as possible. This forces the larger fleet to either base out of a limited POS or move it's pilots continually back and forth to their base of operations. This situation creates "stragglers" that do not stick with the main fleet when they wish to log off or what not, easy pickings for the smaller force.

My main worry is having my forces camped into the station, but that danger would be the same (actually more so) if the large aggressor could simply dock up to resupply or for individual pilots to log off in.

Scenario 2:

I am the underdog with fewer pilots at my disposal, and I wish to take a system away from a larger force.

Do I have a need to dock in the target system, and do I even want to?

Not really. Docking up your smaller force will only get them camped in and unable to harrass the enemy. Your smaller fleets advantage is that it is more mobile and easier to hold together.

In this situation you need your pilots out in space, continually seeking smaller groups that you can focus on and avoiding being trapped and/or overwhelmed. Movement and mobility are your friend and work against the large and more cumbersome force. If you need a POS to stage out of that is easily accomplished, and your fleet is in a far better position to withdraw enmass for resupply when needed.

These are things you need to consider before you dismiss restricted docking.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Silly Slot
State War Academy
Caldari State
#459 - 2012-05-03 16:07:36 UTC
Cearain wrote:
Silly Slot wrote:
Cearain wrote:

1) Some people will like these changes. The same people who like null sec have expressed they like these changes. So its not like no one will do faction war. People will. Its just that it will be people who already have what they are looking for in other parts of the game shifting back and forth. You won't be adding anything really unique to keep the people who aren't interested in the sov null sec stuff entertained.

2) Well your past history in treating faction war as something that doesn't deserve ongoing concern.


and your solution to this would be.......

i hear no recommendations, the big complaint was no consequences for taking systems, i mean ya you have the system but you can still dock there even though another faction took that system... i mean if CCP was adding station bashing to lowsec THEN i'd say they were going a bit screw loose, but this is a simple ability to flip system and deny rights to give the owner of the system a perk, its much easier to flip a system in FW than in Nullsec even in the new system.



The solution is obvious. Allow docking and decrease the timers so smaller gangs can have an impact. This will mean large blobs won't be fast enough to react to threats everywhere throughout the faction war region and small gangs can accomplish something. Players will be able to coodinate attacks thoughout the faction war region and not just on the frontline systems. Even if the defenders have more numbers they may have to send fleets the same size as the attacking force due to the urgency to defend at that time in those ship types.

This will make faction war more fast paced and dynamic than the blobby and slow sov null sec.

Keep some consequences of course. Maybe make station guns start to fire in systems occupied or whatever. I agree with allot of the changes in this expansion in that regard.



its eve lol 24 hours to flip a system is pretty frigging quick actually, hell customs offices tend to be longer lol
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#460 - 2012-05-03 16:14:29 UTC
Lapine Davion wrote:
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Silly Slot wrote:
daghhhhh someone grab the inventory guys and get them on to respond in the test feedback forum, and in their own devblog topic, people are begging to make input but not seeing any devs :( makes me sad panda


RubberBAND, Optimal and Arrow have replied to plenty of feedback and encouraged more of it - also just because someone isn't seen to be responding, doesn't mean they aren't taking the feedback in.

Yea well after neocom fiasco the expectations are where they are. To be honest I will be blown away if the improvements I recommended to it or to this new unified inventory will ever make it to the tranq, but at least have done my part again and told what it takes to upgrade half finished product to finished state.

I am too sorry that it has to be this way, but as the history has proven - issues which are not "liked" get buried under silence and ignored till forgotten. This is one of those times again where we players roll dice in here whether we shall get nice new inventory or half baked pie once again. There is no way to tell before the patch day.

Perhaps after this you reopen the neocom and finish that too? No? How predictable.


The opinions of Grey Stormshadow of xXPIZZAXx are very important.

Pizza is the answer for worlds hunger and Grey Stormshadow opinion is sponsored by ponies. Never underestimate the ponies.

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