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Inferno And Datacores

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DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#121 - 2012-05-02 22:14:18 UTC
Peter Raptor wrote:
CCP Soundwave can you answer this:
Arrow

1. Are people who have spent months training the now fairly useless R&D skills, going to be compensated with SP reallocation,

2. and are people like me, who have spent weeks grinding the now fairly useless lvl 4 R&D agents, going to get a chance to reallocate their standings?

Probably not.

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#122 - 2012-05-02 22:33:12 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
We're not removing research agents or the ability to farm datacores from them. What we're going to do is slow down the rate of datacores you accumulate and put a small pricetag on them.

Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price.

We should have a devblog out later this month with the exact details.

Another question, during the interview with TTH you seemed to indicate an intent to eventually phase out R&D agents altogether. Is this still on the drawing board for when FW comprises a significant amount of datacore production?
Jastra
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2012-05-02 22:39:37 UTC
why does t2 need to move more towards 0.0, wtf happened to the sandbox ? - you know, play how you want, except now it;s play as you want if your in a sov holding alliance otherwise bugger off, I am not usually one to complain, I certainly support 0.0 alliances holding sov because they earned it but slowly stripping all other value from the game for those who play less hardcore or simply do not want to be in 00 is not the way to go.

I DGAF about datacores because the market will adjust but i do resent the implication that t2, despite needing 0.0 moongoo already needs to move towards 0.0 it's upsetting, frankly, please explain the rationale otherwise more tinfoil hattery will result about you being in bed with the major alliances rather than ALL your players

many many people of all types do t1 and t2 manufacturing as a major part of there enjoyment of the sandbox, please respect all these folks and explain what you are doing rather than constantly starting rumours....

If you want to change things, introduce new things, not fix possibly one part of the game that actually works pretty well
Dataa
LightBender Mining and Research Corp
#124 - 2012-05-02 23:02:46 UTC
Grr forum ate my post .


This is just screwing people that play the inventor industrialist.

Why should somebody with a gun be able to get datacores , that i had to train for and on top of that slow down my production of them ? Yes yes i am an inventor i actually use these .

Ill be clear i have 0 interest in your FW or pew pew ,lo or null sec over all pretty much.

Mining sucks ,not only is it boring might as well just paint a target on yourself and throw your cash out to everybody in the system if you take an exhumer out.

Want to do something worth while give mining ships some sort of survieablity, or let us fight back or escape something throw us a bone.
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#125 - 2012-05-02 23:43:35 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Peter Raptor wrote:
CCP Soundwave can you answer this:
Arrow

1. Are people who have spent months training the now fairly useless R&D skills, going to be compensated with SP reallocation,

2. and are people like me, who have spent weeks grinding the now fairly useless lvl 4 R&D agents, going to get a chance to reallocate their standings?

Probably not.


They had no ethical reservations about wasting 2 years of game time when they "rebalanced" super crapitals. Some how I don't see restitution for data core miners.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Vyktor Abyss
Abyss Research
#126 - 2012-05-03 00:33:53 UTC
Ioci wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Peter Raptor wrote:
CCP Soundwave can you answer this:
Arrow

1. Are people who have spent months training the now fairly useless R&D skills, going to be compensated with SP reallocation,

2. and are people like me, who have spent weeks grinding the now fairly useless lvl 4 R&D agents, going to get a chance to reallocate their standings?

Probably not.


They had no ethical reservations about wasting 2 years of game time when they "rebalanced" super crapitals. Some how I don't see restitution for data core miners.


Pity your idea of game time equates to accruing skill points....perhaps in your next 2 years accruing skill points you can lecture us all more on what constitutes ethical changes to our beloved MMO spaceship game.

Super caps are still there in game way up there top of the food chain, they just got balanced a bit. It is not like folks stopped flying them because of these changes.
Faith Patrouette
Careless Carebears Inc.
#127 - 2012-05-03 00:34:38 UTC
I know you guys cannot make everyone happy, so obviously there are people pro and con. However what I have seen in highsec lately is just more and more wannabe-controlling behavior by big alliances,

-Player groups (constant qq about high sec players getting too much isk out of things because they dont have much risk) - lets take all drone poo out of missions so high end minerals only come from nullsec

-QQ about incursions in high sec, that brought a new and 'fun' way of teamwork into the game et voila, big alliences cry and low and null sec dwellers whine, and ..... - yay nerf.

-Changes to war mechanisms , sure they were broken, they needed changes, but hey.. why not stir in the pot of non pvp players, by making wardecs against smaller corps cheaper, and thus looking for an easy prey much easier. Force people to either pvp or join a big alliance.

- Most null sec alliances that have held sov for a while now, are loaded, what the F do they need the upper hand. sole control over t2 production for? They are sitting on billions and billions of isk while whining en-masse to CCP because 'care-bears' have such an easy life.

And for some reason, either people at CCp are too heavily influenced by the bigger group of louder voices, or their own notion of how the game should be played, to see that changes like these will ruin the sandbox.
Things like these, slowly but steadily moving certain core aspects for industrialists out of high sec so people are forced to do what you want them to do, or unsub.

Yes I would call myself 75% carebear, no I don't hate pvp, I have a character I pvp with as well as chars in high sec. I like both, but I am not always in the mood to do pewpew. There are many people in eve who do not do pvp. They know eve is pvp, they know they cannot evade it and will lose ships, they just choose not to participate in it.
That was always the nature of the sandbox. Do what you want to do, choose your career, choose your own path.

These changes will just slowly but steadily kill the way you could live in the sandbox while being your own individual, and choose your own path, it will eventually limit the choices for people that do not intend to do FW or go to low or null way to much, while giving big null-sec corps more and more easy handouts.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2012-05-03 00:45:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
Ioci wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Peter Raptor wrote:
CCP Soundwave can you answer this:
Arrow

1. Are people who have spent months training the now fairly useless R&D skills, going to be compensated with SP reallocation,

2. and are people like me, who have spent weeks grinding the now fairly useless lvl 4 R&D agents, going to get a chance to reallocate their standings?

Probably not.


They had no ethical reservations about wasting 2 years of game time when they "rebalanced" super crapitals. Some how I don't see restitution for data core miners.


Pity your idea of game time equates to accruing skill points....perhaps in your next 2 years accruing skill points you can lecture us all more on what constitutes ethical changes to our beloved MMO spaceship game.

Super caps are still there in game way up there top of the food chain, they just got balanced a bit. It is not like folks stopped flying them because of these changes.

Considering time is the only way to accrue skill points and all else that doesn't explicitly require then can be gained through one form of direct effort or another, how would you propose that SP be accounted for? The time that could have been spent training other skills which would remain relevant seems pretty significant.

Edit: Though personally, I agree with you that such changes, so long as a use remains for the skills, are hardly unethical.
Vyktor Abyss
Abyss Research
#129 - 2012-05-03 01:01:06 UTC
My point is you pay to "play" the game; skillpoints are part of the game yes, but after a while you can play the game almost equally effectively with 10 or 100 million.

I'm at 113 million now and trust me, getting all excited about your next skill dies pretty quickly after a while. Research project management was never exciting, even back in the days you 'could*' win a T2 BPO.

* If you were in the right allianceShocked
Killer Gandry
The Concilium Enterprises
#130 - 2012-05-03 01:25:25 UTC
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
* If you were in the right allianceShocked


Seems the opposite side is now the "right" alliance.
Yalneg Splet
Neptune PVP Corporation
#131 - 2012-05-03 01:46:45 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
As for the reference CCP made about Data Cores:

FYI - Data Cores from R&D Agents are not a big ISK printing press. The amount of ISK gained by selling Data Cores in market is extremely low when compared to the amount of time it took to acquire those Data Cores. This is not something that enables players to get rich quick. I don't know where CCP got the idea that it's an ATM machine but they are obviously mistaken.



This.

Forget for a second all the time spent grinding stats to use top R&D agents. DC prices fluctuate a lot over the years but once they go below a certain point (which they have been at for about 2-3 years) it's barely worth the time spent to fly around and pick them up anymore. I can spend that same time grinding FW missions and make a lot more isk per hour.

So since I have 2 toons trained for maximum datacore farming (I used to have 3 and sold 1), this change would not even make me sad. It helps make the decision to finally stop wasting time flying around to pick them up and just keep grinding missions.
Yalneg Splet
Neptune PVP Corporation
#132 - 2012-05-03 01:50:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Yalneg Splet
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
My point is you pay to "play" the game; skillpoints are part of the game yes, but after a while you can play the game almost equally effectively with 10 or 100 million.

I'm at 113 million now and trust me, getting all excited about your next skill dies pretty quickly after a while. Research project management was never exciting, even back in the days you 'could*' win a T2 BPO.

* If you were in the right allianceShocked



lol, my main is at 90 million sp and I agree totally. First of all I actually get annoyed when something stops training because I have to find something new to train for that I don't even really care about or will never fly. Also, anyone playing this game more than 3 months could probably beat me at PVP despite me maxing dps via skills.
Vince Snetterton
#133 - 2012-05-03 02:33:29 UTC
Ten Bulls wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:

We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec.


Your changes wont achieve the result you desire.

Production is done in high sec, because thats where the BUYERS are, its lower risk, and its more time efficient for producers due to scale. The changes your suggesting are only effecting the SUPPLY side of production, which is already controlled by low and zero-sec and it makes production less efficient.

Have you ran this idea passed the CSM ?



LOL..who do you think GAVE him the idea.
Once null sec zealots realized how powerful a meta-game tool the CSM was, it was all over for high sec.
Vince Snetterton
#134 - 2012-05-03 02:42:23 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price.


At least your previous suggestions of moving a large portion of data core production to exploration made sense. This change sounds an awful lot like you ran the hat around for ideas on boosting the attractiveness of Faction Warfare, and data core production by blowing up militia ships happened to make it into the cut.

Do you really want people engaging in Faction Warfare simply because it is a better income than level 4 missions or Incursions? What do the current FW community feel about having their numbers bolstered with mercenaries?

Mining with guns, all over again.


Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly?

We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system.


My god, how deep the hypocrisy runs in you.
You are either a complete moron, or plain evil.

How is this bad..gun mining is bad, but acquiring datacores by guns is OK.
I am truly not surprised anymore, once I read a couple days ago in a comment on Jester's blog that you are a goon.

So when you were drinking with your null sec buddies on April 27th, how many beers did they buy you over the giggles you all must have had over how you screw the little guy again. And how much lead time are you giving your goon buddies about what datacores are with what race?

I posted a thread last week asking this question, naturally ignored by you.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#135 - 2012-05-03 03:12:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
CCP Soundwave wrote:


We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system.



If this happens......"this will not be the game for me" after 2 1/2 years. Definitely.

This is not empty posting.

Just like POCO's......yet another Goon ISK Fountain. I see what you are doing here.
Disguised as "making FW relevant".

I cry huge foul.

That Goon's Pocket you are in smells terrible.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Kesker
The Sagan Clan
#136 - 2012-05-03 04:12:31 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Additionally to that, they're being added to the Faction Warfare LP store, with a dynamic price.


At least your previous suggestions of moving a large portion of data core production to exploration made sense. This change sounds an awful lot like you ran the hat around for ideas on boosting the attractiveness of Faction Warfare, and data core production by blowing up militia ships happened to make it into the cut.

Do you really want people engaging in Faction Warfare simply because it is a better income than level 4 missions or Incursions? What do the current FW community feel about having their numbers bolstered with mercenaries?

Mining with guns, all over again.


Mining with guns was bad because it detracted from real mining. This is bad because it detracts from......what exactly?

We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system.


Why do we have to keep moving more and more to low and zero-sec. You keep making it harder and harder for a small corporation to get on it's feet. Soon it will be nothing but mission runners, and mining bots in highsec.

Frankly, I'm getting a little peeved at the changes. I've been in this game for a bit over a year, and just as I start to get into a profitalbe stream on some part of the game you change it again. I'll respond and start training different skills to adjust, only to have you change another aspect of the game and all my efforts are for naught.

Why should I have to be part of a mega alliance in low or zero-sec to engage in these activities.

It wasn't easy the first few months in game to make enough isk to get into a battlecruiser. Anyone remember the grinding you did back then. It wasn't so long ago for me. Sure I've a fair amount of isk now, but lets look at the new player and how much more grinding is needed for that first battleship even. Yeah off topic, but someone has to say it.

So, this isn't the well thought out response I was planning to write, but your post really got me fired up. So you just get the flame response from a paying customer.

PI and POCO's benefit low/null sec corps and nerf small hisec corps
Removal of Meta 0 item from drops (not a bad idea for small industrialists, but horrible margins for sure on production) income and minerals from refining gone.
Drone poo removal - mineral speculation shoots through the roof, and drone mission compounds and highend mineral supply dwindles.

Have you not skrewed with the market enough? Look at all of these changes that have affected the price of T2 modules. Now you want to impose another because it should be moved to low or zero (but you nerfed drones)?

Now you want to make T2 invention even less attractive than it already is. If you ask most industrialists, its a royal pain. There is a decent amount of profit in it, but the isk per hour is not. It takes time to make copies, invent T2 BPCs, purchase/build components, collect PI materials, and finally build the T2 module/ship.

You know why so much T2 production takes place in high sec? A properly fit POS is expensive for invention and production purposes. The risk to run that in low sec is enourmous, and certainly no small corp is going to be able to do that.

Thank you... AGAIN... for wasting so much time and effort.

BAH! I'm so right peeved that I'm not even going to clean up my post.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#137 - 2012-05-03 04:17:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Well, its be nuts to repost this in a place where he's reading it so....



Sigurd Sig Hansen wrote:
Vince Snetterton wrote:
So I have been stating for weeks now what most people have just tweaked to: Soundwave is an idiot.

Then I read a couple days ago in Jester's blog in one of the comments that Soundwave was plucked from the ranks of the goons.



oh plz linkies lol

Nick Bison wrote:
When my RL situation changed and I could no longer spend the time I wanted to in null, I decided to stay with Eve because it's just so damn cool. So I moved to HiSec.

I am one of those "casual" players. I've got 3 accounts, 7 toons all with specific jobs.
I mine a little.
I mission run a little.
I build a little.

I saved up so I could buy the BPOs to build Orcas, invent and build Hulks and Mackinaws.
No big production line, just a few ships here and there.

Assuming this datacore change actually happens as planned, it may be time for me to move on.
Don't get me wrong, I still love the game but, my reason for playing will be effectively removed.

An yes, if it happens, I will be a "UmadBro"


Hopefully the loss in subs kicks them in the groin like this summer does and this soundwave idiot is one of those on the chopping block.

Yes, I accept ppl from Goons can seperate real life from game and job from goons but when you hire a guy from a faction in the game who have stated their goal isnt just to win the game but to destroy it for everyone, then you make him lead designer and he starts DESTROYING THE GAME, its time to remove him from the workload and roll back his ideas


Thomas Kreshant wrote:
It's not been confirmed as of yet, the closest was Soundwaves Ten Ton interview where he suggested the possibly they'd go into FW LP stores and said he'd cash out all your cores from the current system prior to inferno.


"if youre smart" cash out. Telling.

Xython wrote:
The problem is, people aren't doing datacore farming for datacores, but as a source of free money.

3x Datacore Farming Alts that are also PI Alts at the same time = enough money for a PLEX or Two a Month, as I understand it. The fact it took them this long to fix such a horrific isk faucet is kinda sad.


tech moons. You get infinite isk, yet THIS is a "horrific isk faucet"??

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#138 - 2012-05-03 04:24:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Something Random wrote:
This to me is a bit worrying.

Free datacores for the skill investment HAS always felt like a cheat - one i dont mind collecting on of course. However i USE my datacores mostly, my current spread is to have 3 dedicated useable datacore researchers and i have 2 that produce cores i dont currently use and sale for cash for yet more produce basically.

My alts do other stuff.

Dont kill me CCP - really think about this hard.

Datacore for ISK is pointless - all will happen is datcore sales will rise to reflect the input isk and boom back where you were. I dont mind a little work - research orientated work - for my cores in the future.



Theyre not killing you, theyre killing T2

SO prior to this, go and but a CRAPLOAD of hulks and T2 ammo cause you aint gonna see it again if Soundwave's fun destruction comes about

MotherMoon wrote:
Skydell wrote:
It's kind of wierd. A few years ago when they nerfed shadow training, the datacore thing came up and they chose to not nerf it out. Now they are saying it's a problem.

They nerfed it out with shadow training

also it's not an isk facet, And FW will only ADD to the datacore pool.

Finally from what I understand, an isk cost for gathering datacore, say of 10,000 per core, would only increase the price of cores by 10,000, meaning on your end you won't see a difference unless you try to make a huge stock pile. That's an awesome change.


Given he says he wants to remove agents it doesnt JUST add. it takes away too

Well, this issue will just let us see wether CCP has junked to see what they do not what they say thing or not. Im willing to be a lot a ppl are gonna walk away cause of this one and theyer getting PLENTY of advanced warning on it too

Quote:
We want to move T2 production more towards low and zero-sec. This gives us a very cool venue for FW to influence the rest of the universe instead of being a closed-loop system.


So its NOT a sandbox and IS a linear universe is what youre saying. Good to know. Im out. Sandbox is what I came to play, not Highsec is the starting area 0.0 is endgame.

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#139 - 2012-05-03 04:29:00 UTC
Aron Croup wrote:
To those who don't know here is a breakdown the amount of ISK earned with Research Agents:

With lvl 5 negotian, lvl 5 in the relevant research skill and lvl 4 agent you can earn around 120 RP's pr. day in the high value category.


  • That's 2.4 datacores pr. day pr. agent.
  • You can have six agents so that's 14.4 datacores.
  • Prices on datacores vary greatly, but normally ranges between 150k and 300k, so that's an average of 225k.
  • 14.4 x 225k = 3.24m ISK


So, if we assume you have done this for all three characters on your account you can now in total earn:

3.24m ISK x 3 characters x 30 days = 291m ISK pr month.

That's not even close to being a PLEX.

Also, consider that players who chose to do this normally train a character on a separate account and then transfer it once it's ready to make ISK. That means the initial investment is 3 months of game time which translates into 3 plex of around 500m plus a character transfer fee.

That's a 2b ISK investment pr. character, so each character will have to run research for almost 2 years before you see a return on your initial investment.

Whomever said this was an ISK printing machine needs to learn the facts.

/Aron


The sad thing about this is who said it -.-

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#140 - 2012-05-03 05:12:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Right now, 0.0 feels a lot more healthy than low-sec. There are a few good ways of making money there right now and I'm not sure adding another steady source to compete is as good as doing something for low-sec. Exploration is something I see getting a lot more rare and "jack-pot" type rewards, rather than something farm-able like datacores. It's profession that should rely on you tracking down diamonds, not standing at an assembly line.


Exploration doesn't only happen in nullsec. Lowsec is not only Faction Warfare. Shooting things isn't the only activity in this game.

How is a cache of a dozen datacores not a "jackpot" while a single decryptor is? Even if every single magnetometric or radar site dropped datacores, that is hardyl "standing at an assembly line". Instead you are increasing the attractiveness of FW to the ISK/hr maximizers. You are turning shooting things into the assembly line.

"C'mon fleet, we need to chase down this guy and blow him up!"

"Hell no! We get more LP from this bunker that just spawned!"

Sad

100 datacores is a month or more production from a single agent. That's 20M ISK or so. One decryptor is worth around 9M ISK. Even a dozen drops per month of a dozen datacores would spice up exploration a little for the pilots involved while simultaneously replacing the production you are cutting from R&D agents. You can't get much more diffuse than a few cores here and there from exploration sites.

Perhaps you could compare the number of exploration sites visited each month to the number of datacores consumed each month. Come back to us with an indication of the average number of datacores that would need to be dropped from each mag or radar site in order to supply 1/3rd of the consumption.

And while doing that, could you update us with any progress on those ancient plans to move asteroid belts to the content system?

Will purchasing datacores from the LP store require science skills? Will purchasing datacores from the LP store cost ISK?

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